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38 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Who would be a buyer for it?

 

Richard

That's the thing isn't it. I'm amazed this hasn't gone yet as I've sold industrial 3's for more than this that needed marinising. But most of these went to our friend from Glascote no longer with us..

They're great engines but if you've already got one do you need a spare?

 

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4 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

That's the thing isn't it. I'm amazed this hasn't gone yet as I've sold industrial 3's for more than this that needed marinising. But most of these went to our friend from Glascote no longer with us..

They're great engines but if you've already got one do you need a spare?

 

It’s sad that people no longer want a proper engine and a back cabin.....it’s something I’m hearing more & more tho...boats will be like modern cars...dull and all the same. 

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15 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Yes, only most boats have an engine, people aren't fitting old engines into new boats, and it's a big thing to store as a spare - assuming you don't already have a spare

 

Richard

 

Except they are...

All the new builds at Brinklow Boat Services, for example continue to be fitted with old engines, as far as I know.

 

I must admit I haven't studied how they get around that from an emissions viewpoint, but that is what continues to happen. (Out of interest can anyone explain briefly what the curent legalities are?...)

 

That said I would far rather have a JP2 in a narrow boat than a JP3, and that view must be shared by any, as the smaller engine always seems to attract far higher prices.

You are correct about storage, though.  I now have a "spare" HA3 in my garage, and they seem a hell of a lot bigger when not in an engine room!

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5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

That said I would far rather have a JP2 in a narrow boat than a JP3, and that view must be shared by any, as the smaller engine always seems to attract far higher prices.

As a JP2 owner I totally agree but you’d almost be looking at another “0” on that price for a rebuilt twin these days which is frightening! Even knackered ones fetch daft money...a JP3 isn’t too mad if you want to fit a big alternator etc and have the right boat...doesn’t sound as nice as a twin tho! 

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1 hour ago, frangar said:

It’s sad that people no longer want a proper engine and a back cabin.....it’s something I’m hearing more & more tho...boats will be like modern cars...dull and all the same. 

It amuses me when people have a shell built with all the bells and whistles, sometimes including a removable lid on the engine room, but have a modern lump buzzing away under the back deck. 

There's always going to be a call for vintage engines for new builds, but Steve Hudson most have been the last volume builder to use them.

There have also- in my opinion- been some new boats built in recent times with engines they don't deserve. If you're going to spend a small fortune on a rebuilt classic at least go to a boat builder that knows what he's doing. 

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2 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

It amuses me when people have a shell built with all the bells and whistles, sometimes including a removable lid on the engine room, but have a modern lump buzzing away under the back deck. 

There's always going to be a call for vintage engines for new builds, but Steve Hudson most have been the last volume builder to use them.

There have also- in my opinion- been some new boats built in recent times with engines they don't deserve. If you're going to spend a small fortune on a rebuilt classic at least go to a boat builder that knows what he's doing. 

Isn't the problem that builders who do indeed know what they're doing are prevented by law from installing traditional-style engines? There was a a law which became effective in, I think, 2016 which, if it didn't actually forbid the practice, at least made it difficult. This was the reason, so a Beta bod told me, for Beta's taking their popular JD3 engine off the market.

 

I seem to remember that if the builder was constructing a "replica", then a trad engine could be installed. I guess the term "replica" is open to interpretation. From what I hear, Brinklow's boats are closer to the "real thing" than most; but I don't know if the addition of a full-length cabin affects their replica status.

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

All the new builds at Brinklow Boat Services, for example continue to be fitted with old engines, as far as I know.

 

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

Pretty much the exception these days


Yes, I don't disagree.

However it is surely that most of the other builders  that built working boat lookalikes no longer do, or have ceased trading, rather than that people are building working boat lookalikes, but fitting them with modern engines.  (I can't actually think of any recent examples of that).

I guess one of the final flings of fitting significant numbers of old engines to boats that were considerably less working boat lookalikes, was in Steve Hudson boats, so the closing of that enterprise made such things far less likely.  I don't know about R W Davies, but am not really aware of new examples of "Northwich Trader" style oats being produced.  Does that still happen, and, if so, what engines do they have?

I don't believe I have ever had a conversation with Brinklow about how they can continue to fit old Gardners, Listers, etc.  Can anybody explain why they can apparently circumvent regulations about emissions that seem to force ther builders to only install more modern engines?

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Alan, a possible explanation in my post (just above yours). I did hear or read this, but I don't remember who said it, so I am not sure with what authority the person spoke or wrote.

If it's true, if someone built a replica of 'Sickle' for example, it would be allowed a traditional engine, whereas a new Collingwood would not.

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Hopefully they'll always find a way through the red tape to fit proper engines. The last time I spoke to RW Davis they were still building with vintage engines installed. 

David Kemp is also building high quality boats at Stourbridge,  presumably not with Beta42's gracing the engine hole.

The problem I was referring to was customers supplying a fully rebuilt engine to builders that haven't really got a clue what a decent boat looks like. 

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1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

 

There have also- in my opinion- been some new boats built in recent times with engines they don't deserve. If you're going to spend a small fortune on a rebuilt classic at least go to a boat builder that knows what he's doing. 

As someone thats got a 1983 Mike Heywood with a JP2 in it I may be hypocritical agreeing with you but I do!!

 

In my boats defence there wasn't the "good replica" scene around then or indeed such interest in such boats....I also think it has not a bad line for the age/builder!....and it was my first boat (That I doubt I will sell....) so ill stop digging now!

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5 hours ago, noddyboater said:

The problem I was referring to was customers supplying a fully rebuilt engine to builders that haven't really got a clue what a decent boat looks like. 

As many of the popular "vintage" engines that have gone into modern built narrow boats are not ones that would ever have  routinely been used as narrow boat engines in working boats in the first place, I can't really see an issue with them being fitted to boats that don't bear much resemblance to any known type of working boats, (Hudsons, as an example).  I just see it as a way of being able to show that engine off in a way that it able to be seen doing useful work.

 

5 hours ago, frangar said:

As someone thats got a 1983 Mike Heywood with a JP2 in it I may be hypocritical agreeing with you but I do!!

 

There's nowt wrong in my view with putting a JP2 into a Mike Heywood boat, (provided it has been given an appropriate shape with enough room to swing a sensible blade).


I'm not however personally a fan of fitting real ex working boats with engines of a type they would never have had when working, even it it s a truly beautiful piece of engineering.  Others, I know, disagree!

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5 hours ago, frangar said:

As someone thats got a 1983 Mike Heywood with a JP2 in it I may be hypocritical agreeing with you but I do!!

 

In my boats defence there wasn't the "good replica" scene around then or indeed such interest in such boats....I also think it has not a bad line for the age/builder!....and it was my first boat (That I doubt I will sell....) so ill stop digging now!

I'd guess that your 83 Heywood is more pleasing to the eye than many "replicas" being turned out by current fabricators. Look on a/duck under tugs to proove my point. 

I once asked Mike's nephew why he didn't build one off shells for more discerning customers anymore,  "There's no money in that stuff " was his answer. 

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10 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 


Yes, I don't disagree.

However it is surely that most of the other builders  that built working boat lookalikes no longer do, or have ceased trading, rather than that people are building working boat lookalikes, but fitting them with modern engines.  (I can't actually think of any recent examples of that).
 

Theres one being fitted out at Concoform (Jim Birches)now. It's a Mel Davies shell with almost pleasing lines. ....and false undercloth style steel front cabin. When it was lifted in there was a big lump under a tarp inside. I asked the owner what the engine was. "Its historic alright, its the last Beta Tug engine built"

It's almost finished now in Weedon.

 

There was also a recent Braidbar 65 footer with an engine room, back cabin shortened to allow the rest of the boat to have full 21st century luxury. Again, a Beta Tug ruined the effect.  Alan will remember Albert from High House.

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12 hours ago, noddyboater said:

That's the thing isn't it. I'm amazed this hasn't gone yet as I've sold industrial 3's for more than this that needed marinising. But most of these went to our friend from Glascote no longer with us..

 

But he wanted standby generator engines that had been well maintained but never done any serious work, not an engine that's run under load for several hours a day for years.

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45 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But he wanted standby generator engines that had been well maintained but never done any serious work, not an engine that's run under load for several hours a day for years.

Several of the relics he bought from me were a long way from being well maintained!

But you're right, he wouldn't touch a JPm.

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17 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

As many of the popular "vintage" engines that have gone into modern built narrow boats are not ones that would ever have  routinely been used as narrow boat engines in working boats in the first place, I can't really see an issue with them being fitted to boats that don't bear much resemblance to any known type of working boats, (Hudsons, as an example).  I just see it as a way of being able to show that engine off in a way that it able to be seen doing useful work.

 

 

There's nowt wrong in my view with putting a JP2 into a Mike Heywood boat, (provided it has been given an appropriate shape with enough room to swing a sensible blade).


I'm not however personally a fan of fitting real ex working boats with engines of a type they would never have had when working, even it it s a truly beautiful piece of engineering.  Others, I know, disagree!

Aside of disagreeing it is unlikely that there are enough engines of the correct type available to re engine those boats without them today, taking the national as an example, these were removed and replaced with pd's which again are both rare and unreliable. 

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2 hours ago, BWM said:

Aside of disagreeing it is unlikely that there are enough engines of the correct type available to re engine those boats without them today, taking the national as an example, these were removed and replaced with pd's which again are both rare and unreliable. 

The PDs may have been unreliable in later Willow Wren days - Leslie Morton hated them - but properly maintained, as in BTW days, I'm told they performed ok. I had one for 27 years which, apart from a broken oil pipe, never let me down.

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3 hours ago, BWM said:

Aside of disagreeing it is unlikely that there are enough engines of the correct type available to re engine those boats without them today, taking the national as an example, these were removed and replaced with pd's which again are both rare and unreliable. 

 

Fair point, although clearly there are PD2s giving reliable service in boats that still work for a living, and of the several boats that still have PD engines failures seem rare if they are well looked after.

I probably didn't express myself too well, as I really only meant I prefer types of engines in types of boats in which they were actually used.  I'm wasn't intending to prescribe that a particular exact boat should only have an engine type it actually worked with, although I probably managed to say that.

So whilst maybe not that many "Grand Unions" acquired air-cooled Listers when actually working, there were quite a number (such as one if my own boats) that actually did, so in my head it is a reasonable engine choice for any "Grand Union", even if it never had one when in long distance carrying service.

 

It's a personal thing though, and I accept others might prefer to fit something a bit shinier and "less industrial", even if no boats of that type were ever fitted with them in working service.

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On 20/02/2020 at 10:17, RLWP said:

Pretty much the exception these days

 

Richard

Not at all, the last gardner we did was for an RW Davis boat, The Kromhout before that Brinklows, The Dorman we are doing now is a replacement for a JP2M and currently in the pipeline with a customer for a 3LW for a XR&D along with a couple for boat builders in the netherlands so still very people fitting old engines in new boats.

 

On the topic of JP's though I would say they are just out of fashion. You go back a few years and when we got an enquiry it was 50/50 Gardner Lister but these days most are Gardner with the odd Lister Enquiry.

 

I also believe the JP3 in question on ebay belongs to flatplane8 of this parish as he has been re-engining his barge Misterton with a JK4 built from the left overs of one we broke up and another, to give the barge a bit more power.

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1 hour ago, martyn 1 said:

Not at all, the last gardner we did was for an RW Davis boat, The Kromhout before that Brinklows, The Dorman we are doing now is a replacement for a JP2M and currently in the pipeline with a customer for a 3LW for a XR&D along with a couple for boat builders in the netherlands so still very people fitting old engines in new boats.

 

On the topic of JP's though I would say they are just out of fashion. You go back a few years and when we got an enquiry it was 50/50 Gardner Lister but these days most are Gardner with the odd Lister Enquiry.

 

I also believe the JP3 in question on ebay belongs to flatplane8 of this parish as he has been re-engining his barge Misterton with a JK4 built from the left overs of one we broke up and another, to give the barge a bit more power.

And at the risk of repeating myself,  did your company get another chance of importing the Gardner VT twin from Argentina?  I was quite taken with the photo..

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On 21/02/2020 at 17:49, noddyboater said:

And at the risk of repeating myself,  did your company get another chance of importing the Gardner VT twin from Argentina?  I was quite taken with the photo..

Unfortunately no, we could never get the vendor to come to the realms of reality to make a deal. So in the end gave up.

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1 hour ago, martyn 1 said:

Unfortunately no, we could never get the vendor to come to the realms of reality to make a deal. So in the end gave up.

That's a shame, it looked interesting and quite rare I'd imagine.  I think there's one at the Anson museum but I've never seen one in a boat. I'd happily do a swap with my 3L2 if it gets offered your way again!

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