Still breaking the ice after all these years

[NB Alton]

Crackin video Mike. Good on Tom & Edwin getting to the Gig!

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence, I think you are talking about Spey's tanks and Derek is talking about Barton Tank.......

Are you saying that you shouldn't go ice breaking with a loaded or partially loaded wooden boat because the "done properly" ice plating isn't in the right place ?

At the other extreme is Scotia, ice plating 4planks up , or Joel, plating full length and 3 planks up.

Bill

Yes Bill, on my last two wooden motors (both Walkers)the ice plating at the unloaded line extended down the hull as a 6" wide strip. The same was at the loaded line. The fore ends were fully plated over. If you rock a boat you will almost certainly expose timber to ice if they are plated in that way.

[Derek R.]

TYCHO is not wooden, and re-inforced at the fore end specifically for breaking ice. The over plating within the fore end doubles the original thickness of quarter inch plate to half inch, yet there are dings and dents all the same. Along the sides there are more, some dents are of quarter inch steel that has been deflected by as much as half an inch.

 

What thickness are ice plates as fitted to wooden boats? For my money, I would not have risked damaging a wooden boat for the sake of getting to an event - especially as we nowadays consider such vessels as so historically 'important'. When working they would go as far as they could, but few if any of Clayton's boats would be owner operated - they were under orders, and likely such orders as to not risk the craft for the sake of a delivery.

 

We broke ice with YARMOUTH back in '82, and the pumps would come on at regular intervals the night after. Yes, we'd punched a hole in the side plating up front right on the water line. Internal corrosion aided and abetted of course and a nut, bolt, and washers stood us good until docked later. A little ice can do a lot of damage.

[The Pipe]

When you look at John Jackson's coal boat Roach the epoxy has not worn off around the forend and I'm quite sure that John has been doing a fair amout of ice breaking over the years.

The big artic ice breakers are around 25000 tons and the ice band hull thickness is only 45mm-48mm thick which is under 2" and being driven along with 75000 horses. Granted they work by climbing up the ice and using the weight to break the ice down and they do it at 14 knots.

[Laurence Hogg]

What thickness are ice plates as fitted to wooden boats? For my money, I would not have risked damaging a wooden boat for the sake of getting to an event - especially as we nowadays consider such vessels as so historically 'important'. When working they would go as far as they could, but few if any of Clayton's boats would be owner operated - they were under orders, and likely such orders as to not risk the craft for the sake of a delivery.

 

 

The metal used by Joe Gilbert alomg the sides was (from memory)14swg galvanised sheet, the vertical iceplating at the fore end was a much heavier gauge, overlapping each strip, the guards went on after this was put on.

[Max Sinclair]

Awesome video. We spent a few days with the crew from Spey at the Droitwich reopening. They have recently renewed pretty much the whole front half of the boat and are training their children (aka The Tar Babies!) how to repair wooden boats. A great bunch of people.

The stern of Spey was practically rebuilt on Claytons dock in 1963.

[Mike C]

............. I would not have risked damaging a wooden boat for the sake of getting to an event - especially as we nowadays consider such vessels as so historically 'important'. When working they would go as far as they could, but few if any of Clayton's boats would be owner operated - they were under orders, and likely such orders as to not risk the craft for the sake of a delivery.

 

 

http://www.boatmuseumsociety.org.uk/images/marbury-all/Marbury/marburybackalongsidebigmere.jpg

[Tim Lewis]

Results of a sad You tube search,

 

Ice Breaking Swan:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IEMjYOhyPw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

Ice Breaking in Brum:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlGLSNyJ4Do&feature=related

 

Tim

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tim Lewis

[Derek R.]

A minor point Mike C, but 'twas I that stated: "What thickness are ice plates as fitted to wooden boats? For my money, I would not have risked damaging a wooden boat for the sake of getting to an event - especially as we nowadays consider such vessels as so historically 'important'. When working they would go as far as they could, but few if any of Clayton's boats would be owner operated - they were under orders, and likely such orders as to not risk the craft for the sake of a delivery."

 

It appeared that Laurence had written such, as the opening (quote) was missing.

 

I know - I don't get out enough . . .

 

Edited to add: 14swg - that's barely more than 2mm thick. Supported by good planks it might seem enough, and having cut 1920's Oak fence posts up for firewood with a bowsaw, I can tell you it can be iron hard, but they've lived in free air. Down where it's damp it's another story and water line is where most rot will occur.

 

The Swan is doing just what those Arctic Ice breakers do, rise above and crush. The boat is getting it edge on, all along the one area. Thin ice can rip out Oakum and cut like a bread knife. Such Ice plates as fitted to wooden boats are fine for thin ice, but if I had a restored wooden boat it would be pretty much tucked away from possible harm.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Derek R.

[NB Alnwick]

A cracking video! No pun intended!

 

I am not so sure about the need for the dancer on the front deck but I am sure he was enjoying the experience . . .

[tim noakes]

I believe the tank is "converted" inside, however you should not rock a wooden boat, the iceplating if done properly down the sides is a thin line of plate inline with the unloaded waterline, what they are doing exposes the upper and lowere unprotected timber.

Laurence, as a member of the group that owns Spey (one of the orginals who purchased her in 1971)I think I need to explain what's going on in the video, and correct a couple of misapprehensions.

 

1. You are quite correct in stating that the 'traditional' arrangement for ice plating is two narrow bands, one on the loaded water line, the other on the unloaded one. Spey was like that when we bought her in 71.

2. In a number of ways we have made minor departures from tradition, we do what makes sense to our current user of the boat on canals as they now are. In this context, we have a wide band (~20" or more) of ice plating, centred on the current semi-ballasted unloaded water line. This is specifically intended to facilitate rocking. This is because:

3. We are breaking ice, not just moving through broken ice, as would have been the case in the old days when company icebreakers kept the channel clear. Past experience has shown us rocking really makes a big difference, breaking open a slightly wider channel.

4. The owners on the video - part of our next generation of owners - were attempting this run after careful discussion with us greybeards. I have to say we were impressed with their success and energy, although they seem to now have our opinion of icebreaking - its something you should do once....

5. On the safety angle, it was noted on another thread that they were not wearing life jackets. We had salted the deck, but still, I have to admit that is a very valid point.

6. And, finally, the discussion about reversing. Bit of mea culpa here, despite much sweat and tears by myself, reverse is at present very unrelaible on her. I think it's due to excessive wear on the fuel pump, but that's a discussion for another day. The upshot is if you pull the reverser, the chances are that the engine will just go out. Far more reliable to hand reverse it by overriding the fuel pump from the engine room. I promise to have it fixed soon ...honest.....

 

 

Tim

[tim noakes]

A minor point Mike C, but 'twas I that stated: "What thickness are ice plates as fitted to wooden boats? For my money, I would not have risked damaging a wooden boat for the sake of getting to an event - especially as we nowadays consider such vessels as so historically 'important'. When working they would go as far as they could, but few if any of Clayton's boats would be owner operated - they were under orders, and likely such orders as to not risk the craft for the sake of a delivery."

 

It appeared that Laurence had written such, as the opening (quote) was missing.

 

I know - I don't get out enough . . .

 

Edited to add: 14swg - that's barely more than 2mm thick. Supported by good planks it might seem enough, and having cut 1920's Oak fence posts up for firewood with a bowsaw, I can tell you it can be iron hard, but they've lived in free air. Down where it's damp it's another story and water line is where most rot will occur.

 

The Swan is doing just what those Arctic Ice breakers do, rise above and crush. The boat is getting it edge on, all along the one area. Thin ice can rip out Oakum and cut like a bread knife. Such Ice plates as fitted to wooden boats are fine for thin ice, but if I had a restored wooden boat it would be pretty much tucked away from possible harm.

OK guys. Please see my main post to Laurence, but I am a little irritated and feel I need to set you a straight here, writing as one of the long time owners that agreed that a couple of our young members could 'have a go' at the ice, for the reasons stated elsewhere.

 

1. We have ownded 'Spey' since 71 (quite a bit longer than Claytons did, in fact), rebuilt her from one end to the other over that time, and know every plank and sheet of iceplating on her.

2. The previous winter we put her through an 11 week docking and completely replaced and rebuilt the front 30' of boat, keeping only the kelson and forward cargo bulkhead. One of the last jobs was ice plating her with a wide band.

3. So she was in perfect condition for trying this - or we wouldn't have allowed it.

4. Since then, we have docked her - for other reasons - and found everything beautifully intact, but in need of a new coat of tar, which was applied a few days ago.

5. We fully realise she's a historic craft, something of which we are very proud. However, with thought and care, she can be used in ways like this that show some of the less common aspects of boating. No risk to her, and lots of pleasure to others judging by some of the less judgemental remarks in these threads.

 

Best to be sure of all the facts first, hmmm......?

[Derek R.]

Recognising your 'facts' Tim, does not change the fact that the attitude towards using even a well rebuilt boat to break ice to get to and event is a little on the irresponsible side of what might be considered reasonable use, for the benefit of a video display that appeals to those who most likely (in the main) would not risk their own craft in such a way. But the bottom line seems to be if you have the money spend it. I wish I could do the same. Jealousy? No - thrift, amongst other things.

 

But that's maybe just one opinion which will not be shared.

[tim noakes]

Recognising your 'facts' Tim, does not change the fact that the attitude towards using even a well rebuilt boat to break ice to get to and event is a little on the irresponsible side of what might be considered reasonable use, for the benefit of a video display that appeals to those who most likely (in the main) would not risk their own craft in such a way. But the bottom line seems to be if you have the money spend it. I wish I could do the same. Jealousy? No - thrift, amongst other things.

 

But that's maybe just one opinion which will not be shared.

Derek, I do not normally let quotation marks annoy me, but those you placed around one word above certainly have. To re-iterate the FACTS are:

 

1. The boat is in tip-top condition, with a brand new front end and ice plating that all put there with our own fair hands.

2. Last week at annual docking we confirmed she suffered no damage from the run through the ice.

 

We would dispute that we 'risked' her in any way. We are fanatical over maintaining our ice plating, and have run through ice numerous times in the past and knew EXACTLY what we were doing. We hotly deny the baseless charge of irresponsibility although I would of course agree that you are free to hold your own opinion - in this case, it is our contention it's not a very good one.

 

Tim

[Davidss]

I think Tim has argued his case well. I find it easy to support his point of view, and the activities of his group that have been commented on here.

I'm writing mainly because I was also surprised by the qualification imposed by the quotation marks around the word facts. On my own account I am in no position to take issue with their use, but as Tim has taken issue, and re-emphasised the facts, I feel I have the freedom to express my support.

 

I have no personal knowledge or connection with Tim, the group he represents, or the boat.

 

Regards.

[carlt]

Derek, I do not normally let quotation marks annoy me....

Your boat, your right to do what you want with it.

 

On a lighter note would you like Usk's cast iron cat-flap?

[mykaskin]

Your boat, your right to do what you want with it.

 

 

Indeed - and as I've said before - nothing that wouldn't have been done when in commercial use. It's nice to see a boat so enjoyed and used properly - even more so a wooden one which is usually treated with kid gloves by some many of their owners.

 

Some of my "un-necessary" ice breaking:

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited March 12, 2012 by mykaskin

[tim noakes]

Your boat, your right to do what you want with it.

 

On a lighter note would you like Usk's cast iron cat-flap?

Thanks for the support! I think another of the Spey group is already delaing with the cat flap issue. It is my understanding that we are going to provide the logistics to get it from Usk to the black country Museum and Stour, as she has lost hers. Tom K is looking into it, I believe....

 

Cheers

 

Tim

[carlt]

Thanks for the support! I think another of the Spey group is already delaing with the cat flap issue. It is my understanding that we are going to provide the logistics to get it from Usk to the black country Museum and Stour, as she has lost hers. Tom K is looking into it, I believe....

 

Cheers

 

Tim

Usk is long gone. The part is sat in my garage in Rugby.

[tim noakes]

Lightening up on this topic a little, I would make an additional observation of the relative resilience of steel hulls versus wooden hulls against this type of ice damage. From observation and comment both in this thread and elsewhere, it seems that it is well known that a real ‘thump’ whether into ice, or, I suppose, a coping stone, can put a serious dent into a steel hull, even a full thickness trading narrowboat hull. Certainly, this seems to be supported by a glance at the front ends of many a steel narrowboat.

In contrast, a traditional wooden hull – ie 2” oak – is incredibly impact resistant and resilient, and is capable of taking some serious punishment. This is, however, with two major caveats:

1. That the wood is in good condition and crucially rot and other weakness free

2. That it is protected from the cutting and abrasive action (of ice in this instance).

Even relatively thin ice plating (ours is 1mm galv steel) when supported on sound timber, produces a really effective combination, coupling the underlying resilience and strength of oak, with the abrasion resistance of steel. I would back it against a steel hull anytime in severe conditions.

On the video we were going through maybe 1” ice, but on other occasions we have kept going with the same lack of damage through up to 3”. Of course, if the underlying timber is weakened, then it would be most unwise. Not the sort of thing to try with a boat in need of new planks at the front, that’s for sure!

 

Comments?

 

Tim

[tim noakes]

Usk is long gone. The part is sat in my garage in Rugby.

Ooops....I should have known that! (blushes). I'm beginning to wonder if there is more than one of these cat flaps around at the moment - anyway, I'll leave it to Tom to carry on with....if you haven't heard from him yet, you may soon do so.

 

Cheers

 

Tim

[mykaskin]

Lightening up on this topic a little, I would make an additional observation of the relative resilience of steel hulls versus wooden hulls against this type of ice damage. From observation and comment both in this thread and elsewhere, it seems that it is well known that a real ‘thump’ whether into ice, or, I suppose, a coping stone, can put a serious dent into a steel hull, even a full thickness trading narrowboat hull. Certainly, this seems to be supported by a glance at the front ends of many a steel narrowboat.

 

 

The steel does bend, and it's flexibility is one of it's main advantages. It does look a little messy, but part of owning a steel historic boat. The steel on most historic boats is quite thin in comparison to some modern boats due to every bit of weight in the hull means less carried in the hold - they were also built to a limited working life span.

 

I have managed to hit a few things with the stem post and you'd never know looking at Victoria (some Victoria shaped holes in a stone wall and a bridge however!).

 

There are some cracking dents in the front of the boat however - mostly before I owned her I think (I hope!)

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[tim noakes]

The steel does bend, and it's flexibility is one of it's main advantages. It does look a little messy, but part of owning a steel historic boat. The steel on most historic boats is quite thin in comparison to some modern boats due to every bit of weight in the hull means less carried in the hold - they were also built to a limited working life span.

 

I have managed to hit a few things with the stem post and you'd never know looking at Victoria (some Victoria shaped holes in a stone wall and a bridge however!).

 

There are some cracking dents in the front of the boat however - mostly before I owned her I think (I hope!)

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Yes, I understand, that makes perfect sense. Bit like them putting Spey (and the other clayton motors of that vintage, I imagine) at 7'1/2" to squeeze extra cargo in.

 

Loved your video, that was way more ice than we were playing with. Saw you trying to rock, we find in ice of that thickness it needs 2-3 people to keep a boat going, but it really makes a difference. Otherwise one gets stuck in a 7' wide channel of broken ice. I reckon rocking widens it at least a foot. Of course, our deck helps - providing it is gritted!

 

Cheers

 

Tim