Jump to content

Proof of ownership


Doubleh

Featured Posts

I have agreed to buy a boat subject to survey, which has been completed and highlighted a few pieces of work which are now being resolved by the broker, at my cost.

 

The broker is pressing me to send the balance of the purchase price before he will start the work, however I haven't seen anything to satisfy me that the owner has title to the boat he is selling. The broker has told me that the owner has supplied them with a signed agreement stating the boat is free of lien and under the British Marine Federation Contract they have with him, and they are happy he has enough evidence of proof of ownership.

 

The broker has also informed me that he has known the owner for some time and assured me there won't be a problem, however I am somewhat cautious in nature and don't like the idea of going ahead on a promise, wihthout seeing something in hard writing. The broker has confirmed he will ask the vendor for his bill of sale, but isn't sure that he actually has this.

 

Am I right to be worried at this stage? I have never bought a narrowboat before but have bought a yacht. As this was covered by a marine mortgage the bank did due diligence on it, but we were given a file of paperwork including bills of sale from the previous three owners and a letter from the builder confirming that ownership had passed to the first owner. Are bills of sale not such a big deal in the inland world?

 

How would you guys get comfortable about ownership without a bill of sale if the vendor is unable to provide it? And would not having this document this affect my ability to resell the boat at a later date?

 

Any thoughts much appreciated

 

Many thanks

 

 

When I originally

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not a "legal eagle" but when we bought our boat, from a broker, he happily produced the MCA "bill of sale" which included the names and addresses the two previous owners. The information pack also included the contract when the boat was built for the first owners.

 

I would suggest you insist the broker make all paperwork available for inspection whilst you are at the "haggling stage."

 

Unfortunately narrow boats do not have a "log book" of ownership.

 

The only proof I have that I own the boat is the receipt from the broker which clearly states that I paid the agreed price for the boat in question.

 

Since buying the boat we have changed her name but have kept all correspondence to BW regarding this matter and we have photographic evidence of the repaint and name change.

Edited by Ray T
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is something I used to be concerned (Possibly paranoid) about but it transpires that it is not uncommon for boats to change hands without evidence of ownership of the boat, as you have discovered it's not like buying a house or car!!

 

It does come down to trust in a lot of cases and the reputation of the broker you are dealing with, I can certainly think of brokers who if they told me that the seller was entitled to sell the boat that would be good enough for me.

 

The paper work needs to be seen in context - even a bill of sale is no guarantee - what if the boat is in one persons name but in fact is owned by a couple who are getting divorced for example?? - the seller may very well have paper proof they bought the boat - but actually may only own 'half' the boat as his or her partner may have an interest in the other half if it was being sold without their knowledge.

 

I'm waffling but what I'm trying to say - be careful even with paper work in place as it might provide a false assurance - It does come down to - do you feel you can trust the broker and the seller??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a similar experience, the purchase of my last boat was far from straight forward and simple, in the end I did all the chasing and ended up getting the sellers to supply signed and witnessed affa davits(?) stating boat was theirs to sell and was free of any leins or encumberances. The BMF contract that was waived under my nose as being adequate security, was in fact, in my case, worth nothing.

 

Trawl through the available paperwork and talk to people where the boat has been moored a quick chat with the locals can often set your mind at rest and then accept that you may never find that magic bit of paper that proves title with no doubt, once that is accepted then you still have to make the decision to trust or not to trust.

 

In the past the Canal trade was based IME on details recorded on post-its and fag packets, it's getting better, more professional, but it still has some way to go to be even close to perfect. I'm not even sure a system where boats had registration docs and records were kept at a central point, like cars, would help. There are plenty of stories of cars involved in dodgy sales despite the systems in place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently bought my first narrowboat and had similar concerns. However, remember the broker is acting on behalf of both the seller and the buyer and I would agree with the earlier comments that reliability of the broker is your peace of mind. Check the terms and conditions under which you are buying. In my case the broker made it quite clear that legal title transferred on receipt of my payment which was held in their client account until the paperwork was complete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are buying via a broker. Are they the owner or purely the owner's agent - some brokers buy boats and then sell them on.

 

If the broker has bought the boat to sell then your contract is with the broker and I would presume you have a good (legal) case against the broker if things go belly up.

 

If the broker is sure that the seller is the rightful owner then I don't see why they - the broker - won't provide you with a guarantee to this effect - i.e. they'll re-imburse you if the ownership is not as they believe.

 

If the broker won't start the work until you've coughed up, then I think it is fair that you should at least be shown copies of any paperwork that the "owner" has or has shown the broker before you pay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For transparency, I am a broker at Boatshed Grand Union

 

If the broker buys in boats and sells them he is not, by definition, acting as a broker, he is a dealer. In this case he cannot offer you the security and assurance he can as a broker. In this case any misrepresentation would be amenable to being dealt with through Trading Standards. A broker however represents the seller in the first instance and should only present information given by the seller or evident by observation.

 

It is true that many boats do not have a satisfactory bill of sale. In this case a reputable broker will satisfy himself of ownership through records of mooring, licences, maintenance, local knowledge etc. It is well said though that possession is nine-tenths of the law, however I much prefer clear proof of ownership when I broker a sale.

 

If you are buying with finance, a proper proof of ownership is normally required.

 

Once an offer on a boat has been accepted, my job is to see that the deal is done with both parties being protected and everybody happy.

 

Phil

Boatshed Grand Union

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our last NB buy was a 'pound notes' deal on the towpath, but there is always some evidence of ownership

 

The seller had :

BW correspondance with his name and address and the correct boat name / number

Insurance certificates with his name address and correct boat name & number

Maintenance receipts

A survey (with his name on it) from when he had bought it.

 

& A driving licence with the 'correct address' and the picture matched.

 

He did sign a 'piece of paper' (printed off the RYA website)saying their was no outstanding finance etc etc.

 

Obviously no proof that it wasnt part owned by an 'Ex' but how far can you go ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our last NB buy was a 'pound notes' deal on the towpath, but there is always some evidence of ownership

 

The seller had :

BW correspondance with his name and address and the correct boat name / number

Insurance certificates with his name address and correct boat name & number

Maintenance receipts

A survey (with his name on it) from when he had bought it.

 

& A driving licence with the 'correct address' and the picture matched.

 

He did sign a 'piece of paper' (printed off the RYA website)saying their was no outstanding finance etc etc.

 

Obviously no proof that it wasnt part owned by an 'Ex' but how far can you go ?

 

A very sensible list of things to check , similar to the things i would ask to see if i were buying a car for instance. A V5 on a car does not prove ownership after all.

 

It amazes me that what was previously an honourable system of buying property from individuals is now risky due to the fact that you can't trust the man who looks you in the eye and shakes your hand - we all need to be careful when buying boats - perhaps we now need a more formal method of proving ownership ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you have already found out inland boats tend to have much less paperwork then their coastal counterparts. Of course you can still get older sea boats with very little paperwork but on the whole the paper chain is much more complete. Take your boat abroad and you need prove of VAT paid etc.

 

We bought NC with all the paperwork complete from her first sale but it isnt uncommon for boats based inland to have very little paperwork and for the potential buyer to have to do a lot of leg work to prove that the boat is the vendors to sell. It is high time that some sort of record of boat sales was made compulsary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for all the input. The broker has confirmed that the vendor doesn't have a bill of sale as he bought the boat privately some years ago. The broker is confident of the vendor's bona fides and I have no reason to doubt him, but I guess I am a naturally cautious kind of guy.

 

The broker is pulling together what paperwork there is, and we will look over this shortly, hopefully that will be enough to get comfortable.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think really the best evidence is bills and a quick call to BW to confirm who THEY think the owner of the boat is/licensee also that it has not be Section 8'd because if it has you may have a whole more pile of trouble round the corner.

 

http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/boats.php

 

I always find this helpful

Edited by nbtafelberg
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you have already found out inland boats tend to have much less paperwork then their coastal counterparts. Of course you can still get older sea boats with very little paperwork but on the whole the paper chain is much more complete. Take your boat abroad and you need prove of VAT paid etc.

 

We bought NC with all the paperwork complete from her first sale but it isnt uncommon for boats based inland to have very little paperwork and for the potential buyer to have to do a lot of leg work to prove that the boat is the vendors to sell. It is high time that some sort of record of boat sales was made compulsary.

And how many people buy boats and then find the person who sold it to them didn't own it each year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trouble there is that once you have sold the house to pay for the boat, if the boat really doesn't exist or isn't yours after the sale you are left with nothing, and that isn't a good place to be. For some it's a risk all situation and they have reason to want to be certain that good unhindered title will pass to them on completion. And as the vendor can walk off into the sunset maybe the agent needs to be certain that good title is free to pass on completion. Even finding half a divorce settlement or a loan or hire purchase secured on a newly acquired boat would be a headache.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.