Battery problems (again)

[David Schweizer]

I visited Helvetia yesterday, and tried to start the engine, I did not apply the heaters straight away, thinking I would give it a few turns first to ease it up after two months rest, Bad decision. I turned the starter switch fully right and got a loud clunk from the starter, and all the warning lights went off. I tried again and just got a click from the solenoid.

 

I tested the battery voltage and it registered a healthy 12.8v I checked the electrolyte with a hydrometer and it registered just above half charged into fully charged. I attempted another start but nothing happened, and the battery started to drop in voltage, after several further attempts and tests the voltage had dropped to about 8v, so I removed the battery and brought it home. I have spoken to two people who seem to know more about these things than I do, and they both suggested the battery was "knackered" to use their phrase, especially as it is seven yeas old.

 

However, it gets stranger. The battery is now on my work bench, initially it was registering 12.8v, so I put a load on (a spare tunnel light) which was dim, the voltage dropped to about 5v, and only recovered to about 8v with no load. I tried to put a charge in and it would not accept anything, then whilst testing it again, the light suddenly increased in brightness and when I re-connected the charger, the battery started to take a healthy charge. I took the battery off charge, and have since had the light operating without any charge input, for several hours. The light is still bright and there is no discernable drop in voltage.

 

The battery now seems to be functioning normally, although I have not tried a starter on it!! but why is it now producing full voltage and accepting a charge wheras before it would do neither? Is it "Knackered" or could i chance it on the boat again?

Edited February 2, 2012 by David Schweizer

[by'eck]

It almost certainly is knackered. There are probably some lead deposits floating around the bottom of one or more cells that are putting an intermittent internal short on the battery.

 

Try shaking it around whilst doing your tests, but given its age I think that may be a case of sadistic bestial necrophilia

[Tony Brooks]

I visited Helvetia yesterday, and tried to start the engine, I did not apply the heaters straight away, thinking I would give it a few turns first to ease it up after two months rest, Bad decision. I turned the starter switch fully right and got a loud clunk from the starter, and all the warning lights went off. I tried again and just got a click from the solenoid.

 

I tested the battery voltage and it registered a healthy 12.8v I checked the electrolyte with a hydrometer and it registered just above half charged into fully charged. I attempted another start but nothing happened, and the battery started to drop in voltage, after several further attempts and tests the voltage had dropped to about 8v, so I removed the battery and brought it home. I have spoken to two people who seem to know more about these things than I do, and they both suggested the battery was "knackered" to use their phrase, especially as it is seven yeas old.

 

However, it gets stranger. The battery is now on my work bench, initially it was registering 12.8v, so I put a load on (a spare tunnel light) which was dim, the voltage dropped to about 5v, and only recovered to about 8v with no load. I tried to put a charge in and it would not accept anything, then whilst testing it again, the light suddenly increased in brightness and when I re-connected the charger, the battery started to take a healthy charge. I took the battery off charge, and have since had the light operating without any charge input, for several hours. The light is still bright and there is no discernable drop in voltage.

 

The battery now seems to be functioning normally, although I have not tried a starter on it!! but why is it now producing full voltage and accepting a charge wheras before it would do neither? Is it "Knackered" or could i chance it on the boat again?

 

 

Assuming you have removed any corrosion on the posts.

 

Sounds a bit like a bad connection on a cell interlink. Unfortunately hard to diagnose accurately now they are inside a glued together battery case.

 

After 6 years it does not owe you much so perhaps knackerd is a fair diagnosis.

[IDS]

Agree with intermittent/bad internal electrical connection between cells or to the terminal pasts (= knackered)

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Any battery which drops below 8v will struggle to charge, the charger will not recognise it as a 12v battery or the battery will not accept a 12v charge, by using the light you fooled the charger and the battery into accepting a 12v charge. 7 years old! bin it using the immortal words well done thou god and faithful servant. It sounds as if one or more of the cells had given up.

[riki]

hi it sounds to me like the battery had a short on some of the plates it could have burned the short out and be back all most as good as new or it could well be as u said knackered till u try it with a heavy load u will not know . if u have a good set of jump leads u could try jumping ur car off of it rather than going back to the boat .

[matty40s]

Assuming you have removed any corrosion on the posts.

 

Sounds a bit like a bad connection on a cell interlink. Unfortunately hard to diagnose accurately now they are inside a glued together battery case.

 

After 6 years it does not owe you much so perhaps knackerd is a fair diagnosis.

 

After several days of struggling to start, a few forced rolling starts, and two jump cable starts in the last two cold periods, I have finally retired the original starter battery from my Skoda Octavia.

It is 11 years old and has done 281,000 miles, it even kept the car starting last winter after being left for over a week in minus temperaures.

I didn't let the garage keep it though, I am going to experiment with it!!

[David Schweizer]

Assuming you have removed any corrosion on the posts.

Sounds a bit like a bad connection on a cell interlink. Unfortunately hard to diagnose accurately now they are inside a glued together battery case.

 

After 6 years it does not owe you much so perhaps knackerd is a fair diagnosis.

Excuse me Tony! You have clearly never seen inside my engine bay, There is no corrosion or deposit on the posts (or any other terminals) at all. When I took the clamps off the terminals they were still as good as new (almost Shiney!)

 

I am increasingly coming to the view that it must be their age - Seven years old, ironically to the day!

Edited February 2, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Bob18]

Obviously just out of warranty...

 

One could recite the "Dead Parrot" sketch to relieve your frustration. Seven years is a good life for a battery, so mourn its passing and buy a new one (bet the new one last as long though)

[Arge]

It almost certainly is knackered. There are probably some lead deposits floating around the bottom of one or more cells that are putting an intermittent internal short on the battery.

 

Try shaking it around whilst doing your tests, but given its age I think that may be a case of sadistic bestial necrophilia

 

Arge here

I recon thats what it is too.

[Geoff Taylor]

Excuse me Tony! You have clearly never seen inside my engine bay, There is no corrosion or deposit on the posts (or any other terminals) at all. When I took the clamps off the terminals they were still as good as new (almost Shiney!)

 

I am increasingly coming to the view that it must be their age - Seven years old, ironically to the day!

 

 

Hi David

Just out of curiosity,what make is the battery? Seven years is very good in this day and age as they dont make em like they used to!

[larkshall]

I have just had this problem with a 12v motorcycle battery. Having replaced the battery, I drained the old one (properly and retained the electrolyte for safe disposal). I cut the battery open. Found there was a partial short between the plates in one cell. If you tilted the battery in one direction it was ok any other tilt, and you got 8v dropping to 5v. This battery was 5 years old, which is not bad for a motorcycle battery.

[David Schweizer]

Hi David

Just out of curiosity,what make is the battery? Seven years is very good in this day and age as they dont make em like they used to!

The name on the side of the battery is EuroForce, but the only batteries available these days with that name are small dry cell ones, and the logo is different.

 

I bought the battery either from ATS or Bathwick Tyres, and I suspect they were a generic product onto which diffeerent supplies stuck thieir own label.

[Sir Nibble]

Another vote for a broken intercell connection.

[pistnbroke]

Its sulphated ..high on charge voltage ..low discharge voltage .. sg will not go above 1150 ....did not take charge until a small area had become conductive ...Batteries are like women ...when it gets old get a new one ...

 

If it has an interlink break then the terminal volts drops to zero when attempting to crank as all the batt volts is across the interlink break

Edited February 4, 2012 by pistnbroke

[Mac of Cygnet]

Hi David

Just out of curiosity,what make is the battery? Seven years is very good in this day and age as they dont make em like they used to!

 

I replaced my starter battery last year. On the back there was a label: 'Recharge before July 1998'

[pistnbroke]

lucky in love lucky with batteries ....some you win some you loose

[David Schweizer]

Another vote for a broken intercell connection.

Yes, you are all correct. I conducted a little experiment which seems to prove the point. With a fog light and meter connected to the battery, I tilted and rocked the battery, the light went intermittently dull and bright, and the voltage oscilated between 12.8v and below 5v, which suggests that there is conductive debris in the bottom of at least one cell causing a partial short.

 

The old battery is now outside waiting to be taken to the tip, and I am looking for a replacement. Unfortunately the 644 battery is difficult to find in battery supply companies, and the Chandlers only had the 643 in stock. They could all order one for me but at £110/£125 I thought that was a bit steep, so it looks like the internet.

 

So far I have come up with three possibilities - Numax at £87, Advanced Battery Supplies at £85, and Griffin at £80. (all including delivery). The only make I have actually heard of is Numax, which I believe are made (or marketed) by Varta, The Advanced battery looks identical to the Numax, but the advert states that the colour may vary, suggesting that they source from different manufacturers. The Griffin makes strong claims but I have never heard of them.

 

So my next question is what experience do others have of any of these makes, and does anyone know of a cheaper source?

Edited February 4, 2012 by David Schweizer

[bizzard]

I told em Oldham.

We here get them from Shield,at the factory just down the road,the last one i bought a 110 amp services is 5 years old and was £55,but i think about £75 now.My starter is also a Shield 100 amp and has been on for 9 years.

Be careful of batteries that have an internal disconnection and you try to give them a heavy charging as they can suddenly go off BANG!!.

[blodger]

Yes, you are all correct. I conducted a little experiment which seems to prove the point. With a fog light and meter connected to the battery, I tilted and rocked the battery, the light went intermittently dull and bright, and the voltage oscilated between 12.8v and below 5v, which suggests that there is conductive debris in the bottom of at least one cell causing a partial short.

 

The old battery is now outside waiting to be taken to the tip, and I am looking for a replacement. Unfortunately the 644 battery is difficult to find in battery supply companies, and the Chandlers only had the 643 in stock. They could all order one for me but at £110/£125 I thought that was a bit steep, so it looks like the internet.

 

So far I have come up with three possibilities - Numax at £87, Advanced Battery Supplies at £85, and Griffin at £80. (all including delivery). The only make I have actually heard of is Numax, which I believe are made (or marketed) by Varta, The Advanced battery looks identical to the Numax, but the advert states that the colour may vary, suggesting that they source from different manufacturers. The Griffin makes strong claims but I have never heard of them.

 

So my next question is what experience do others have of any of these makes, and does anyone know of a cheaper source?

 

Griffins were/are good batts but they seem to have gone sealed rather than open which I prefer

[David Schweizer]

I told em Oldham.

We here get them from Shield,at the factory just down the road,the last one i bought a 110 amp services is 5 years old and was £55,but i think about £75 now.My starter is also a Shield 100 amp and has been on for 9 years.

Be careful of batteries that have an internal disconnection and you try to give them a heavy charging as they can suddenly go off BANG!!.

Thanks fopr that, but unfortunately they do not have any retail outlets on their website, or an internet seles facility. Their nearest depot is in Yeovil which is 45 miles away, and the only retail outlet I could find was a campervan dealer who wants £119 for the 644 battery. A non starter really (excuse the pun!)

[bizzard]

Yes lots of garages sell them,but its knowing where as most won't probably have a website.

[tosher]

Yes, you are all correct. I conducted a little experiment which seems to prove the point. With a fog light and meter connected to the battery, I tilted and rocked the battery, the light went intermittently dull and bright, and the voltage oscilated between 12.8v and below 5v, which suggests that there is conductive debris in the bottom of at least one cell causing a partial short.

 

The old battery is now outside waiting to be taken to the tip, and I am looking for a replacement. Unfortunately the 644 battery is difficult to find in battery supply companies, and the Chandlers only had the 643 in stock. They could all order one for me but at £110/£125 I thought that was a bit steep, so it looks like the internet.

 

So far I have come up with three possibilities - Numax at £87, Advanced Battery Supplies at £85, and Griffin at £80. (all including delivery). The only make I have actually heard of is Numax, which I believe are made (or marketed) by Varta, The Advanced battery looks identical to the Numax, but the advert states that the colour may vary, suggesting that they source from different manufacturers. The Griffin makes strong claims but I have never heard of them.

 

So my next question is what experience do others have of any of these makes, and does anyone know of a cheaper source?

 

I have had a Numax engine start battery for 6 years now and it's still going strong but my engine alway's starts first turn of the key so the battery has never done any serious cranking. Not onboard at the moment so can't give full details, I can only remember it says "Numax Heavy Duty" on it. (Hope I'm not tempting fate with this post)

[Canal Shop Man]

The old battery is now outside waiting to be taken to the tip, and I am looking for a replacement. Unfortunately the 644 battery is difficult to find in battery supply companies, and the Chandlers only had the 643 in stock. They could all order one for me but at £110/£125 I thought that was a bit steep, so it looks like the internet.

 

. . . does anyone know of a cheaper source?

Interesting - we ONLY stock the 644 starter battery and get the 643 in to order - we charge £87.95, but collect only.

[David Schweizer]

Interesting - we ONLY stock the 644 starter battery and get the 643 in to order - we charge £87.95, but collect only.

Thanks for the reply. After a lot of chasing around, I actually ordered a Numax from one of our local tyre depots this afternoon for £86.