1st time out

[Chertsey]

If we are talking boats steered from the stern then yes I agree - the boat with the steerer that can see the other boat has the advantage and should respect the fact the other steerer will not be able to see them.

 

A problem occurs of course if the steerer of the boat on the 'mainline' insists on exerting a perceived 'right of way' and presses on regardless.....

As the canals were built for, and are primarily used by, such boats, then it would seem plausible that this be reflected in accepted practice, but what rules actually apply and what do they say?

[Guest]

As the canals were built for, and are primarily used by, such boats, then it would seem plausible that this be reflected in accepted practice, but what rules actually apply and what do they say?

 

I was adopting a logical and safe position like DK, as to the rules no idea...

[Chertsey]

Does anyone know?

[matty40s]

It would have been different, the horse leading the narrowboat down the main straight would have been visible to the junction arriving boat so it would have slowed or stopped. The only difference would have been if it was a fly boat, and then heaven help the other boat, flyboats first rules applied whatever the circumstances.

[ditchcrawler]

As the canals were built for, and are primarily used by, such boats, then it would seem plausible that this be reflected in accepted practice, but what rules actually apply and what do they say?

When I poke my nose out I send Diana to the bows to look each way. I must admit I am amazed at the number of boats I see coming out of blind junctions, normally marina entrances with both Mr & Mrs on the stern and just poking straight out.

And no I don't give way unless its to avoid a collision.

[Emerald]

 

 

A problem occurs of course if the steerer of the boat on the 'mainline' insists on exerting a perceived 'right of way' and presses on regardless.....

 

Oh no I bought my boat to get away from road rage

Perhaps a give way sign at the marina exit would be appropriate?

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks for all the advice guys and Matty for your offer. I want to do this right and have been toying with the idea of a boat handling course. I have been in touch with Trent Boat Handling and think I might give it a go.

 

We've had training with Ray - - - he's first rate

[Naughty Cal]

Don't assume your boat pivots around its centre. With a 57' boat the 'pivot point' could well be nearer the back than that. I say that on the basis that my 32 footer pivoted in the middle, the 71 footer about 20' from the back. Only trial and experience will tell you how your particular boat behaves.

 

Secondly, just what are the rules about 'right of way'? Cheshire Rose suggests it's the same as on the road, but when I blogged a while back about coming out of a junction (it was Great Haywood but I don't think that's relevant) the consensus from people I regard as very experienced and knowledgeable was that I, as the boat emerging from the junction, had priority. What is the rule, and does it apply to coming out of marinas as well as junctions?

 

As I understand it the boat on the main navigation has the right of way. However as you quite rightly point out they will often also have the best view of the situation so will most often give way to the "emerging" vessel. Not always the case though and you do come across the odd person who will stand by their right of way to the end. Use of and the understanding off sound signals does help to warn people of your presence.

[Chertsey]

As I understand it the boat on the main navigation has the right of way. However as you quite rightly point out they will often also have the best view of the situation so will most often give way to the "emerging" vessel. Not always the case though and you do come across the odd person who will stand by their right of way to the end. Use of and the understanding off sound signals does help to warn people of your presence.

Where do you get that understanding from Phylis? I'm trying to find out whether there are actually any official rules, or whether it is more a case of convention.

[sociable_hermit]

Ok, so this will probably raise a few eyebrows but everyone has to start somewhere right?

As I am a complete newbie and as the weather is starting to improve somewhat I am starting to plan ahead for my first venture outside of the comfort of my home marina.

This will be my first outing and so given that the entrance to the marina is narrow the entrance to the canal looks so incredibly small when do I begin to instigate my turn?

I should say that I have undoubtably stretched beyond my abilities and have a 57ft narrowboat. I understand the boat pivots in the centre so does that mean I start the turn about midway? If that is the case then there is approximately 30ft of front end sticking out into the channel a little different from nudging a car out from a side to a main road methinks?

Any suggestions other than take a bus journey will be gratefully appreciated.

That photo looks like the sales pontoons for New & Used Boats at Mercia Marina...

 

Firstly, get someone to stand at the bow and agree some hand signals (as you won't be able to hear them over the engine). This is best achieved by mentioning the words "going boating" or "pub" withing close proximity of any group of boaters in the Marina. I may well be around myself if you need a hand. If you need to stop and wait the best place will be in the entrance itself, as the narrow bit will stop your boat from wandering too far off course. As and when you have a clear exit I'd do something like this:

 

Although the entrance 'neck' is pretty tight at Mercia you can start to angle the boat slightly as you're going through it. Slow right down about 2 boat lengths from the neck, to tickover or just above. As the front 1/3 of the boat passes through the entrance, gently turn the tiller (opposite way to the direction you wish the bow to go). With little power on this will have a gradual rather than dramatic effect, and start the boat swinging round. Watch the back end, as this will pivot the other way. You might have to catch the swing with some brief opposite snatches of the tiller, which I suppose is a bit like applying opposite lock to a car, but very slow in comparison! If it really won't do what you want it to do, apply more revs, provided that won't result in a collision.

 

Once the stern is free to swing out at the back (i.e. clear of the neck), apply significantly more power and if necessary 'pump' the tiller, again in the opposite direction to the intended swing of the bows. As others have said, putting the tiller right across can often produce less of a turn than angling between about 40 and 60 degrees.

 

If it becomes clear that the boat won't make it in one go, apply some reverse power while you still have some space (give it a moment between forward and reverse to avoid putting any unnecessary stress on your gearbox), stop and then back up. Reverse back across the cut at an angle until you have enough room to take another bite at it. Two things to remember - the tiller won't work in reverse, and the non-towpath side can get overgrown and silted up, so don't get the prop too close to the offside bank.

 

The bow will tend to keep swinging a bit after you've stopped applying power or stopped steering, which can be useful sometimes (reversing while the bow is still swinging across from the previous forward movement, for example). Alternatively, it also means that you need to stop steering BEFORE the bow is pointing exactly where you want it to point. It's something you'll need to practice and get used to on your particular boat. It's rare to go from "tiller across" to "tiller straight" without applying a bit of opposite lock to catch the swing, on my boat at least. However they are all different!!

 

Don't expect to be perfect from the word go, and don't take grief from others who expect it either. The key thing is, if you're going to clout something, do so as gently as possible. There's a massive difference between kissing the edge or another boat, and ploughing into them at full revs. There are a few on here who seem to think everyone should be an expert from the word go, but I've never seen a satisfactory explanation as to how this is supposed to be achieved. Nothing counts more than experience, so go out and enjoy yourself and learn at the same time

[bizzard]

If we are talking boats steered from the stern then yes I agree - the boat with the steerer that can see the other boat has the advantage and should respect the fact the other steerer will not be able to see them.

 

A problem occurs of course if the steerer of the boat on the 'mainline' insists on exerting a perceived 'right of way' and presses on regardless.....

Here lies the body of William Grey who insisted on his right of way.

[Guest]

That photo looks like the sales pontoons for New & Used Boats at Mercia Marina...

 

Firstly, get someone to stand at the bow and agree some hand signals (as you won't be able to hear them over the engine). This is best achieved by mentioning the words "going boating" or "pub" withing close proximity of any group of boaters in the Marina. I may well be around myself if you need a hand. If you need to stop and wait the best place will be in the entrance itself, as the narrow bit will stop your boat from wandering too far off course. As and when you have a clear exit I'd do something like this:

 

Although the entrance 'neck' is pretty tight at Mercia you can start to angle the boat slightly as you're going through it. Slow right down about 2 boat lengths from the neck, to tickover or just above. As the front 1/3 of the boat passes through the entrance, gently turn the tiller (opposite way to the direction you wish the bow to go). With little power on this will have a gradual rather than dramatic effect, and start the boat swinging round. Watch the back end, as this will pivot the other way. You might have to catch the swing with some brief opposite snatches of the tiller, which I suppose is a bit like applying opposite lock to a car, but very slow in comparison! If it really won't do what you want it to do, apply more revs, provided that won't result in a collision.

 

Once the stern is free to swing out at the back (i.e. clear of the neck), apply significantly more power and if necessary 'pump' the tiller, again in the opposite direction to the intended swing of the bows. As others have said, putting the tiller right across can often produce less of a turn than angling between about 40 and 60 degrees.

 

If it becomes clear that the boat won't make it in one go, apply some reverse power while you still have some space (give it a moment between forward and reverse to avoid putting any unnecessary stress on your gearbox), stop and then back up. Reverse back across the cut at an angle until you have enough room to take another bite at it. Two things to remember - the tiller won't work in reverse, and the non-towpath side can get overgrown and silted up, so don't get the prop too close to the offside bank.

 

The bow will tend to keep swinging a bit after you've stopped applying power or stopped steering, which can be useful sometimes (reversing while the bow is still swinging across from the previous forward movement, for example). Alternatively, it also means that you need to stop steering BEFORE the bow is pointing exactly where you want it to point. It's something you'll need to practice and get used to on your particular boat. It's rare to go from "tiller across" to "tiller straight" without applying a bit of opposite lock to catch the swing, on my boat at least. However they are all different!!

 

Don't expect to be perfect from the word go, and don't take grief from others who expect it either. The key thing is, if you're going to clout something, do so as gently as possible. There's a massive difference between kissing the edge or another boat, and ploughing into them at full revs. There are a few on here who seem to think everyone should be an expert from the word go, but I've never seen a satisfactory explanation as to how this is supposed to be achieved. Nothing counts more than experience, so go out and enjoy yourself and learn at the same time

 

I have to admit that in the early days of being moored at Mercia I just used to put the nose of the Dog House on the far bank if going left as IIRC that way was a tighter turn out than going right, and pivot on the canal side.

 

Not elegant and yes probably not good 'boatmanship' at all but it is a tight exit. Of course this only would work if there was no American Hireres in a Canal timeboat moored opposite marina entrance.....

 

Once more accomplished I could do it in one sweep, took a few goes though.

[mykaskin]

Don't assume your boat pivots around its centre. With a 57' boat the 'pivot point' could well be nearer the back than that. I say that on the basis that my 32 footer pivoted in the middle, the 71 footer about 20' from the back. Only trial and experience will tell you how your particular boat behaves.

 

Ah, buts thats an empty 71 footer!

 

Just remember Escape, that the faster the forward movement the further forward the pivot point is. Generally for cabin boats this is just behind the centre of the boat when static. Depending on the width of the channel you may be able to point the boat a little in the direction you want to go early - most locks will allow some degree of steerage when you leave them for example. It may require scraping the rubbing strips a little though.

 

 

Secondly, just what are the rules about 'right of way'? Cheshire Rose suggests it's the same as on the road, but when I blogged a while back about coming out of a junction (it was Great Haywood but I don't think that's relevant) the consensus from people I regard as very experienced and knowledgeable was that I, as the boat emerging from the junction, had priority. What is the rule, and does it apply to coming out of marinas as well as junctions?

 

An interesting one this, isn't there a By-law covering this? I would say the boat carrying straight on would have right of way, any manoeuvring boat would/should by definition be going slower. If I had to stop because someone came straight out of a junction - they would end up with two sinking boats.

 

Two boats turning at a junction - the boat coming out onto the main canal would go first to leave room for the other to turn.

 

Generally I try and get a good view before going for it, but sometimes it's limited, so work on the fact that I can usually steer around any issues - for example said boat passing by would be in the centre of the channel, when I'll be working around the edge by the time they get close ('cause I can see boats near by). On bigger waterways I work on the fact that I can stay near the entrance bank until I get a proper view of the wider picture.

 

This is all academic though really, the bigger boat has right of way surely?

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Chertsey]

 

 

This is all academic though really, the bigger boat has right of way surely?

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Absolutely. Unless it's you and me.

 

I've just been back and looked at the comments on the blog post I wrote about this here, and at least one of them (a forum member whose knowledge I would trust) does seem to be saying that there is a byelaw that gives the emerging boat the right of way. If no one else comes up with chapter and verse I guess I will have to go and investigate myself

Edited January 30, 2012 by Chertsey

[Emerald]

 

That photo looks like the sales pontoons for New & Used Boats at Mercia Marina...

 

 

If you come across a frazzled looking guy with a paper print out of your instructions blowing in the wind whilst trying to manoeuvre a 57ft Stenson then give us smile

Edited January 30, 2012 by Escape

[Guest]

Given your posts and a couple of others recently I do have to concede I find it surprising that any body buys a boat (used or new) with no apparent previous experience of steering just embarks on a trip... either unaccompanied or without training or at the very least previous hiring experience...

[Emerald]

Given your posts and a couple of others recently I do have to concede I find it surprising that any body buys a boat (used or new) with no apparent previous experience of steering just embarks on a trip... either unaccompanied or without training or at the very least previous hiring experience...

 

Thanks for your comments you are the first to say what most people will be thinking and I appreciate your honesty. I think the word is impulsive and I know the saying that a fool and his money are soon parted. Having said I have no experience is not exactly true.My parents had boats, I steered on open water (Trent) but was never allowed to moor up or take the boat out of the Marina hence my apprehension. Due to family issues (I will not go into) we will not be able to take the boat out much anyway but owning her suits our needs as a floating weekend retreat, I could have bought a static caravan and had kids running around it all day or the peace and tranquility of this? If nothing else if I do manage to take it out on little trips that will be a bonus for us at the moment.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Escape

[Guest]

Fair enough - see my earlier comments.

 

There are a number of CWDF members who moor near you (if you are indeed at Mercia) who would I am sure be willing to accompany you on a trip or two.. we would have done but now too far away...

 

I'm sure they will shout up...

[Chertsey]

Given your posts and a couple of others recently I do have to concede I find it surprising that any body buys a boat (used or new) with no apparent previous experience of steering just embarks on a trip... either unaccompanied or without training or at the very least previous hiring experience...

But isn't that just what happens when you hire for the first time?

There will always be a first time, regardless of your ownership status. And the first time getting out of a marina is most likely to occur after you have bought your own boat.

[Naughty Cal]

Where do you get that understanding from Phylis? I'm trying to find out whether there are actually any official rules, or whether it is more a case of convention.

 

From the BW Byelaws:

 

Vessels turning or turning into canal

 

20. Vessels turning in or into any canal shall do so in such a manner as not to cause obstruction or interference to any other vessel using the canal.

 

Which reads to me that the vessel on the main navigation has right of way.

 

We were always told the same thing by the hire yard on the Broads as well, not that many people take much notice down there. It is every man, woman and dog for themselves down there

[alan_fincher]

Secondly, just what are the rules about 'right of way'? Cheshire Rose suggests it's the same as on the road, but when I blogged a while back about coming out of a junction (it was Great Haywood but I don't think that's relevant) the consensus from people I regard as very experienced and knowledgeable was that I, as the boat emerging from the junction, had priority. What is the rule, and does it apply to coming out of marinas as well as junctions?

Well, I don't know about "rules", (which I guess in the BW case would be the bye-laws ?), but I would disagree with your "experienced and knowledgeable", I'm afraid.

 

If I'm emerging anywhere, (genuine junction, marina, whatever), I would assume the onus is firmly on me to try not to do so into the path of anyone who is passing on what I am emerging into.

 

We always try and put someone at the front if we can.

 

That said, if I'm on the straight line path, but know I'm passing somewhere where someone may suddenly appear in front of me, I will take that into consideration too, (particularly if I'm near a hire boat base, on a hand-over day!....)

 

I doubt the bye-laws cover it, (or indeed anything added to your licence conditions). I suppose it could get a mention in the Boater's Handbook, I don't know, although that I would say is "good practice", rather than a "rule".

 

Have you tried asking the "Considerate Boater", people ?

 

EDIT:

 

Ah! - Cross posted with Phyllis.

 

What I would have expected the rule to be, as there is one - but didn't recall it being there!. Thank's Rachel - I think that clarifies one should not simply come charging out with a 70 foot boat, with everybody stood at the back!.......

 

This is all academic though really, the bigger boat has right of way surely?

"Royalty", beats "Town", beats "Star" ?????

 

Or are the rules more complex like some kind of canal "Rock / Scissors /Paper" ?

Edited January 31, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

But isn't that just what happens when you hire for the first time?

There will always be a first time, regardless of your ownership status. And the first time getting out of a marina is most likely to occur after you have bought your own boat.

 

Of course it is - but you are doing it with somebody else's boat and you get at least some basic tuition on how to steer the thing. I just find it curious that sometimes people invest in upwards of £70K in a peice of kit but are then left clueless about how it will steer or how to handle it.

 

Perhaps builders should be compelled to give basic tuition as part of the package in the same way hire co's are forced to, I understand some builders may do this 'gratis' anyway.

 

(Don't know what we then do about used purchases mind - especially private ones).

 

 

 

 

ed to add a missing is.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MJG

[alan_fincher]

Absolutely. Unless it's you and me.

 

I've just been back and looked at the comments on the blog post I wrote about this here, and at least one of them (a forum member whose knowledge I would trust) does seem to be saying that there is a byelaw that gives the emerging boat the right of way. If no one else comes up with chapter and verse I guess I will have to go and investigate myself

I've only read it quickly, but are you talking about the situation where you are turning out at a "T" junction, but someone else is wanting to turn in ?

 

Surely not the same as you wanting to come out, and them wanting to go straight on, without turning ?

 

In the second case, I'd say they clearly have "right of way" and it is your "give way".

 

The first is surely more complex, but as you can't necessarily know the intentions of an approaching boat on the "through route", I'd have thought the emerging one giving way was still the safest and usually most sensible course.

 

(Obviously it depends in reality on the exact nature of the junctions, the boats involved, and their relative abilities to get out of the way! Pointless trying to doggedly follow a rule, if it involves much manoevering and swearing, and it would have been much easier to have actually not followed it!....)

[Gazboatman]

Given your posts and a couple of others recently I do have to concede I find it surprising that any body buys a boat (used or new) with no apparent previous experience of steering just embarks on a trip... either unaccompanied or without training or at the very least previous hiring experience...

'cough'

[Grace and Favour]

'cough'

 

That's a bad cough - - I'd take some medicine for that Squire!