Turning 180 degrees without a bowthruster

[blackrose]

Is that with or without the BT

 

Without.

 

There aren't many boats about, these days, with a draught deep enough to take advantage of the little known Bell Weir Turntable.

 

What's that? Care to elaborate?

[Chertsey]

 

 

 

What's that? Care to elaborate?

An amusing figment of Carl's imagination, I suspect.

[blackrose]

On a related subject, I got talking to an owner of a very expensive brand new Piper Dutch style barge the other day and he told me that it was quite difficult to turn it around.

 

At 60' x 13' it's slightly bigger than my 57' x 12' NB style widebeam, but why would it be so much more difficult to turn? His Piper hull is beautifully curved and chined, while mine has the underwater profile of a brick, but despite this mine spins on a sixpence with a turning circle tighter than most narrowboats of similar lengths that I've steered.

 

So, what makes a boat turn more easily or with more difficulty - is it just hull shape and rudder size? And are there any advantages to a boat that's more difficult to turn - does it move through the water better in straight line for example?

Edited October 17, 2011 by blackrose

[bizzard]

Some inland boats do turn better than others,but for the tightest turn with most boats its best to bring it to a dead standstill,then tiller over but not quite fully,then a fair bit of forward throttle and most inland waterways type of displacement boats should turn virtually on their own axis,depending on beam on winds of course.

[Bob18]

Your boat has a length to width ratio of 5:1, a 60ft narrow boat is nearer 9:1 - "shorter fatter" boats are generally more manoeuvrable than "long thin" ones...

 

(much fun to be had with a nearly square raft...)

 

Your boat has a length to width ratio of 5:1, a 60ft narrow boat is nearer 9:1 - "shorter fatter" boats are generally more manoeuvrable than "long thin" ones...

 

(much fun to be had with a nearly square raft...)

[blackrose]

Your boat has a length to width ratio of 5:1, a 60ft narrow boat is nearer 9:1 - "shorter fatter" boats are generally more manoeuvrable than "long thin" ones...

 

So what's the story with the Piper Dutch barge then? It also has a length:width ratio of about 5:1 so it should be relatively easy to turn.

Edited October 17, 2011 by blackrose

[bizzard]

So what's the story with the Piper Dutch barge then? It also has a length:width ratio of about 5:1 so it should be relatively easy to turn.

It may have a long deepish central keel underneath,coupled perhaps with an undersize rudder.

[blackrose]

It may have a long deepish central keel underneath,coupled perhaps with an undersize rudder.

 

I don't think it has a central keel at all - unless you include the bit at the back that becomes the skeg? It's got a flat baseplate starting a few metres back from the bow and the rudder looks quite large.

 

http://www.piperowners.co.uk/pipeline/katheII.3.htm

 

http://www.barging.co.uk/Elessina/slippingphotos.htm

 

http://www.barging.co.uk/Elessina/slipping2.htm

Edited October 18, 2011 by blackrose

[JDR]

I've been constantly surprised by the turning circles of modern barges on the Thames.I've seen boats do inch perfect turns on windy days where I would look for more space.That looks like a bowthruster tunnel in front of the anode, is it working ok? I have had to develop a turning style due to a chronic lack of thrust where once the bow starts to swing I put the boat into reverse to avoid using too much river.I'd suggest they need to upgrade their BT or work on their technique.

[blackrose]

Those links were just some examples of Piper 60' Dutch style barges. The guy I was talking to had a brand new boat with a BT and I assume Piper know which BT to fit to their boats. But I wasn't really talking about turning with a BT - I just wondered why a boat like that wouldn't turn easily without it? Perhaps it's his technique, but hard over is hard over - if the boat has a big turning circle there's not much you can do to get around in one go unless you can use wind or current to help.

Edited October 19, 2011 by blackrose

[flatplane8]

I would've thought a modern boat, or any boat designed from the start to have an engine would turn ok. Bowthrusters should make it a cinch. Misterton was built as a dumb or sailing barge, and consequently has a big 'barn door' type rudder with no balance area. This means when the rudder is hard over, half the prop wash is going straight out the back, pushing us forward. Hence three point turns in the Thames, as we start the turn, then use reverse (with prop walk to our advantage) to stop us moving forward too much.

[fanshaft]

In case anyone has 3.5 minutes they want to kill,

is how we did it.

Nice to see 'Misterton' again. I remember her well when owned and operated by that great keelman Les Hill. Being Lincoln size she could get through the Selby Canal and for quite a while Les carried wheat from BOCM's Whitley Bridge silo to their mill at Selby via this route - possibly in the early 1970s. (The larger BOCM craft had to go via Goole). I re-started this traffic after a break, using mainly Leeds & liverpool craft, plus some loads in Sheffield sized craft, until around 1980. Les also did a few loads for me using Misterton, to other destinations, though he once turned down a cargo from Goole to Nottingham on the grounds that 'they say it's a long way to Nottingham'! (His son took the cargo in his craft 'Green One'). I, too, learned a lot from the keel and bargemen. Happy days!

David L

[flatplane8]

Nice to see 'Misterton' again. I remember her well when owned and operated by that great keelman Les Hill. Being Lincoln size she could get through the Selby Canal and for quite a while Les carried wheat from BOCM's Whitley Bridge silo to their mill at Selby via this route - possibly in the early 1970s. (The larger BOCM craft had to go via Goole). I re-started this traffic after a break, using mainly Leeds & liverpool craft, plus some loads in Sheffield sized craft, until around 1980. Les also did a few loads for me using Misterton, to other destinations, though he once turned down a cargo from Goole to Nottingham on the grounds that 'they say it's a long way to Nottingham'! (His son took the cargo in his craft 'Green One'). I, too, learned a lot from the keel and bargemen. Happy days!

David L

 

Thanks for the kind words, we've got some more information on Misterton here. Les Hill wrote a book about his life as a keelman and its an interesting read. His son David has helped out with some background information on her too. We've tried to keep her looking more or less as she would've during her working life, the original wheelhouse was rotten, so we made it a bit bigger, but thats the main change to her profile.

[bargemast]

On a related subject, I got talking to an owner of a very expensive brand new Piper Dutch style barge the other day and he told me that it was quite difficult to turn it around.

 

At 60' x 13' it's slightly bigger than my 57' x 12' NB style widebeam, but why would it be so much more difficult to turn? His Piper hull is beautifully curved and chined, while mine has the underwater profile of a brick, but despite this mine spins on a sixpence with a turning circle tighter than most narrowboats of similar lengths that I've steered.

 

So, what makes a boat turn more easily or with more difficulty - is it just hull shape and rudder size? And are there any advantages to a boat that's more difficult to turn - does it move through the water better in straight line for example?

 

 

Hello Mike,

 

of course I may be completely wrong, but the owner of this brand new Piper boat was maybe brand new to boating too.

 

Also one very important thing is that your boat with a tiller has much more rudder angle then the Piper with an hydraulic ram, that doesn't allow the rudder to go to a more useful angle for sharp turning.

 

Peter.

[blackrose]

Hello Mike,

 

of course I may be completely wrong, but the owner of this brand new Piper boat was maybe brand new to boating too.

 

Also one very important thing is that your boat with a tiller has much more rudder angle then the Piper with an hydraulic ram, that doesn't allow the rudder to go to a more useful angle for sharp turning.

 

Peter.

 

He was an experienced narrowboater, but new to a barge with a wheel. Why wouldn't they build a barge with a rudder that can get to a decent angle? Is it just an issue with hydraulics? Of course a rudder can't go too far over or it stalls and ends up having less or no effect. Does anyone know what that angle is out of interest?

[bargemast]

He was an experienced narrowboater, but new to a barge with a wheel. Why wouldn't they build a barge with a rudder that can get to a decent angle? Is it just an issue with hydraulics? Of course a rudder can't go too far over or it stalls and ends up having less or no effect. Does anyone know what that angle is out of interest?

 

 

As an experienced narrowboater, he was most likely used to a tiller steered boat, and it takes a bit of getting used to the difference.

 

Most hydraulic rams allow a rudderangle between 35° and 40°, of which many people will tell you that that all it needs to be effective.

 

I had quite a few barges during my working days, of which a couple were of the Freycinet size, and their rudders go the full 180° which is neccesary when you go down in the locks, to prevent your rudder getting stuck on the cill.

 

For very tight turning with one of those you need at least 70°, something you don't normally get on a replica luxemotor with hydraulic steering, if a boat like that would be equipped with a schilling- or becker-rudder it would need less angle.

 

Peter.

 

 

edited to add a picture of an ex-tankerbarge of mine in the drydock, that shows the rudderangle of a Freycinet size barge.

Edited November 5, 2011 by bargemast

[mickspangle]

Reminds me of my time on the Thames, moored about 100m above Staines Bridge in a 70' NB. Usually used to moor facing upstream. Whenever there was a bit of a flow on it was always exciting turning and heading downstream - basically get back rope so there's just a few turns holding the back end to a bollard, undo head rope, run to back of boat, jump on, undo stern rope by which time boat is at right angles to river banks, give throttle some serious welly and steer through bridge hole which is rapidly approaching. And relax. Never got any videos sadly.

[bargemast]

Reminds me of my time on the Thames, moored about 100m above Staines Bridge in a 70' NB. Usually used to moor facing upstream. Whenever there was a bit of a flow on it was always exciting turning and heading downstream - basically get back rope so there's just a few turns holding the back end to a bollard, undo head rope, run to back of boat, jump on, undo stern rope by which time boat is at right angles to river banks, give throttle some serious welly and steer through bridge hole which is rapidly approaching. And relax. Never got any videos sadly.

 

 

You have always been a lucky man, I am not familiar with the local situation there, but I don't think I would take any unnecessary risks turning the way you have been doing, I would much rather take the boat further upstream before turning around, to give you plenty of reserve time/space for the manoeuvre.

 

Peter.

[twbm]

A gap 6ft bigger than your boat. Bloody hell chance would be a fine thing. We are sometimes lucky if we get six inches outside the pub

 

Oddly enough we were watching someone getting about six inches outside the pub on our CCTV only last week. Told them to bugger off and get a room.

 

On a more boaty note - that's exactly how the grain barges used to turn 180 in and out of the approach to Hulme Lock on the Bridegwater, albeit a tad faster.