"Northwich Trader"

[mark99]

2 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

 norwich waders in my opinion look like a chinese copy of a nawwowboat taken from a picture taken on a not very smartphone

So id buy the one that doesnt have trivets and spend the remaining$$$$$ on a historic to faf about on

Personally I pefer the RW Davies "Northwich Traders" look to a clapped out "ford transit" Northwich  despite the latter being proclaimed as having some "historic" significance. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by mark99

[carlt]

5 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Personally I pefer the "Northwich Traders" look to a clapped out "ford transit" Northwich  despite the latter being proclaimed as having some "historic" significance. 

Blasphemer! 

 

You will surely burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell for your heresy! 

[MtB]

Just now, carlt said:

Blasphemer! 

 

You will surely burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell for your heresy! 

 

Calm down Carl its ok, he's from Surrey. Cut him some slack!

[Captain Pegg]

29 minutes ago, carlt said:

Blasphemer! 

 

You will surely burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell for your heresy! 

Absolutely, a proper boater would buy the real thing. And don't even think about committing the ultimate sin of converting an ex-working boat to something comfortable for cruising because it's your duty to live in 250 cubic feet of space while making your delivery of five times as much fresh air to the countryside. How else would it get there?

 

It's all a bit daft this debate. If you are looking for a top end boat for extended cruising an RWD NT is as good as they come in any practical sense. Nowt in common with an ex-working boat in truth, that's just a bit of marketing.

 

JP

[pete harrison]

55 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Absolutely, a proper boater would buy the real thing. And don't even think about committing the ultimate sin of converting an ex-working boat to something comfortable for cruising because it's your duty to live in 250 cubic feet of space while making your delivery of five times as much fresh air to the countryside. How else would it get there?

 

JP

What is wrong with converting an ex-working boat so making it comfortable for cruising ? This is all part of a boats evolving history, and owners should carry no guilt for adding such comforts as it is their money so their choice.

 

As it happens I have had an almost full length steel cabin removed from my boat as I am more than happy with a back cabin, and the fore end will be returned to a cloth boat over the next few months - again this being part of my boats evolving history 

 

edit = sorry, we are going off topic.

Edited July 21, 2018 by pete harrison

[Athy]

One thing I've just noticed about 'Ace' is that it has no solid fuel stove in the main cabin; there's some evidence that the back cabin has one, but as there appear to be no interior shots of this it's hard to tell. So you'd be reliant on the (diesel, I assume) central heating, which might not be a good idea if you intend to use the boat all year round.

 

I wonder if the R.W. Davis signwriting indicates that the boat was built for the personal use of someone at the company, in which case it's probably built to a particularly high standard.

[roland elsdon]

As i said i would buy the one without trivets its not mutton dressed up. Nothing wrong with mutton as long as you dont flog it as lamb.

however i think that boats scattered with falling off washers generaly in the wrong place look silly.

[mark99]

I would check the draft of the NT too.

 

They are quite deep drafted the quoted 27" seems a bit optimistic. Prob nearer 3 foot.

[Captain Pegg]

8 hours ago, pete harrison said:

What is wrong with converting an ex-working boat so making it comfortable for cruising ? This is all part of a boats evolving history, and owners should carry no guilt for adding such comforts as it is their money so their choice.

 

As it happens I have had an almost full length steel cabin removed from my boat as I am more than happy with a back cabin, and the fore end will be returned to a cloth boat over the next few months - again this being part of my boats evolving history 

 

edit = sorry, we are going off topic.

Doesn't seem to be the done thing these days; possibly seen as akin to ruining a piece of history? The point was it seems that half the sensible things someone looking to extensively cruise and/or live on board could do if they want a high spec noteworthy boat seem to be frowned upon by someone.

 

Personally, I think some of nicest looking boats on the canal are converted historic boats; Thea and Sextans for example.

 

JP

[alan_fincher]

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Personally, I think some of nicest looking boats on the canal are converted historic boats; Thea and Sextans for example.

:off_topic:
Sextans actually contains 10 feet of Thea, (and more recently something approaching a similar length of new build.

It's one of the more elaborate versions of an "emerging history".

Thea of course was a butty, so many would argue that the loss of the butty back end and shortening to current length has changed her far more than sticking a cabin conversion over the remaining hold.  (Cabin conversions can be torched off quite easily, turning a 57' motor tug back to a 72 foot butty is a lot harder).

My gripe with Northwich Traders, (the RWD variety), is that they are openly marketed as what they most clearly are not.  If they were genuinely built based on 1930s plans produced by Yarwoods it ought at least to be possible to identify a type of Yarwoods boat from that era that they look remotely like.  There isn't one!

I've no doubt they are well built boats, and if you like the look, and fake rivets, they are probably one of the best.  But why advertise them as a copy of something that never existed?

[BEngo]

Only the first one is a non copy of something non-existent.  The others are all copies of the first one!

N

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Only the first one is a non copy of something non-existent.  The others are all copies of the first one!

N

Clear thinking!

I believe that the "first one" belongs to a forum member who moors adjacent to us.

[Captain Pegg]

50 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

:off_topic:
Sextans actually contains 10 feet of Thea, (and more recently something approaching a similar length of new build.

It's one of the more elaborate versions of an "emerging history".

Thea of course was a butty, so many would argue that the loss of the butty back end and shortening to current length has changed her far more than sticking a cabin conversion over the remaining hold.  (Cabin conversions can be torched off quite easily, turning a 57' motor tug back to a 72 foot butty is a lot harder).

My gripe with Northwich Traders, (the RWD variety), is that they are openly marketed as what they most clearly are not.  If they were genuinely built based on 1930s plans produced by Yarwoods it ought at least to be possible to identify a type of Yarwoods boat from that era that they look remotely like.  There isn't one!

I've no doubt they are well built boats, and if you like the look, and fake rivets, they are probably one of the best.  But why advertise them as a copy of something that never existed?

You are too bothered about it. A whole lot of the historic scene - real and replica, boats and people - has a faux element about it.

 

To 99% of people an RWD NT is simply a very nice distinctive boat. Even allowing for the marketing there were only 30 or so built and they are all over a decade old. It seems such builders need all the help they can get to build a viable product as there are precious few top end builders left so who is going to build the high end distinctive boats of tomorrow? I don't think it helps to get snooty about the true heritage of the design. The canal is a better place for having them around (including Hudson's) as otherwise it's just historics (which are mostly rebuilt anyway), clone crafts and wide beams. Oh, and course those truly historic craft - Springers.

 

Laurence did a good job of answering your original question in any case.

 

JP

Edited July 22, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[mark99]

Agree CP.

 

The RW Davies NT's are a very distinctive and ruggedly built boat and, to my eyes, a great looking boat. A real head turner compared to the multitude of clone boats.    

[Tuscan]

47 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

You are too bothered about it. A whole lot of the historic scene - real and replica, boats and people - has a faux element about it.

 

To 99% of people an RWD NT is simply a very nice distinctive boat. Even allowing for the marketing there were only 30 or so built and they are all over a decade old. It seems such builders need all the help they can get to build a viable product as there are precious few top end builders left so who is going to build the high end distinctive boats of tomorrow? I don't think it helps to get snooty about the true heritage of the design. The canal is a better place for having them around (including Hudson's) as otherwise it's just historics (which are mostly rebuilt anyway), clone crafts and wide beams. Oh, and course those truly historic craft - Springers.

 

Laurence did a good job of answering your original question in any case.

 

JP

Totally agree they look well built boats. We oversaw the conversion of our working boat and are very happy with it , no doubt if a future owner had more money than sense ( like us ! ) they could strip it back.

[pete harrison]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

Doesn't seem to be the done thing these days; possibly seen as akin to ruining a piece of history? The point was it seems that half the sensible things someone looking to extensively cruise and/or live on board could do if they want a high spec noteworthy boat seem to be frowned upon by someone.

 

Personally, I think some of nicest looking boats on the canal are converted historic boats; Thea and Sextans for example.

 

JP

I am not so sure about this as there are more ex-working narrow boats still being converted (mostly as undercloth with a permanent structure underneath nowadays) than deconverted. It also interested me at Braunston this year how many are being used as camping boats, with the owners making extensive use of the hold under cloths. Personally I prefer conversions to be of the conventional 'square' type as headroom / usable space is improved and the boat is not pretending to be something it is not - but as I have said numerous times before the owner at the time has all of the choice as it is them that is spending the money - and what ever they do there is always going to be somebody that frowns.

 

I am not a great fan of the term 'historic' when it comes to ex-working narrow boats as they are not historic at all, they are just older than modern boats. The term 'historic' has appeared quite recently, probably fuelled by the renaming of the Narrow Boat Owners Club to the Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club, but 'historic' is often used in conversation to differentiate ex-working narrow boats from modern pleasure narrow boats - the confusion being they are all narrow boats. Personally I prefer the older references (and the ones I was bought up with) of narrow boats for ex-working narrow boats, pleasure boats for modern narrow boats and cruisers for fibre glass boats - none of this noddy boat / tupperware nonsense that is freely banded about even more so than 'historic', showing that there are levels of open snobbery throughout the boating community 

[Captain Pegg]

24 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

I am not so sure about this as there are more ex-working narrow boats still being converted (mostly as undercloth with a permanent structure underneath nowadays) than deconverted. It also interested me at Braunston this year how many are being used as camping boats, with the owners making extensive use of the hold under cloths. Personally I prefer conversions to be of the conventional 'square' type as headroom / usable space is improved and the boat is not pretending to be something it is not - but as I have said numerous times before the owner at the time has all of the choice as it is them that is spending the money - and what ever they do there is always going to be somebody that frowns.

 

I am not a great fan of the term 'historic' when it comes to ex-working narrow boats as they are not historic at all, they are just older than modern boats. The term 'historic' has appeared quite recently, probably fuelled by the renaming of the Narrow Boat Owners Club to the Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club, but 'historic' is often used in conversation to differentiate ex-working narrow boats from modern pleasure narrow boats - the confusion being they are all narrow boats. Personally I prefer the older references (and the ones I was bought up with) of narrow boats for ex-working narrow boats, pleasure boats for modern narrow boats and cruisers for fibre glass boats - none of this noddy boat / tupperware nonsense that is freely banded about even more so than 'historic', showing that there are levels of open snobbery throughout the boating community 

Can't disagree with that. I am never sure of the etiquette around the terminology for such things in any case. The vibe around full cabin conversions is a view I pick up from having a general interest in ex-working boats. I think the increase in under cloth conversions vice full cabin conversions does support it; as in there is a way it 'should' be done. There are very good examples and some not so good.

 

Another thing I find a bit strange is the fashion for painting cabin extensions grey or red oxide which is something seen on quite a few of the modern copies.

 

JP

Edited July 22, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[pete harrison]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Another thing I find a bit strange is the fashion for painting cabin extensions grey or red oxide which is something seen on quite a few of the modern copies.

 

JP

Which brings us neatly back to Northwich Traders as most are painted like this - and this is where I am going to leave this thread as I have no real interest in modern narrow boats and I am aware I have been involved in going a bit off topic 

[mark99]

The slighly strange this is the description Northwich Trader has to a certain extent caught on.

 

RW Davies I think started it.

 

Then Barry Hawkins did a version.

 

Then XRD did a version.

 

And I saw a Tim Tyler version advertised too.

 

So anyone with  RW Davies "original" could look down on the later versions.

 

 

Already a mini history and evolution.

 

[sharpness]

3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

and they are all over a decade old

Not so, unusually they launched a sailaway in the last 12m & at least one other that I know of in the last decade.

[mark99]

He does do sailaways. I looked into it once before the iron fist came down.....Kim does not do tug decks!

[David Schweizer]

The Davis "Northwich Trader" is a nice enough looking boat, but in my opinion it should be correctly described as "informed by" rather than a "copy"of a Yarwoods boat. I remember standing on the counter of the prototype (?) at the Worcester IWA rally in 1999 and commenting to Jan that they hadn't got the cabin profile correct, and having spent many hours on the at the back end of a Yarwoods working boat, I knew exactly what it should look like. A voice from the towpath , which I belive was Phil Trotter, said "well we copied the original drawings", which I assume were the ones supplied by Laurence Hogg. My only observation can be that Yarwoods yard apparently did not!!

Edited July 22, 2018 by David Schweizer

[MtB]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

He does do sailaways. I looked into it once before the iron fist came down.....Kim does not do tug decks!

 

A couple passed me last weekend (my bote has a lovely long tug deck) and I overheard the following convo....

 

Her: Oh LOOK, wouldn't that be fantastic for sunbathing on?!!!!

 

Him: Yes.

 

Then a pause...

 

Him: But it's a waste of space isn't it???

 

Her: Yes.

 

[NB Esk]

I hope not to take the thread too far off topic but post a couple of photos as they may be of interest.

I built my own boat and have to admit to being influenced by the looks of the the Northwich trader and also the method of construction, which I thought I could just about pull off.

I bought a set of small Northwich plans from Laurence Hogg and have to admit to shamelessly copying some of the work done on Alnwick, via their website (see bow photo)

I couldn't faithfully reproduce all of the hull details, chines for example, as all of the plate was formed by myself, on site.  The chines would probably have beaten me.  Took me around six years to get to the painted stage, working mostly Saturday mornings.  I ended up with the one boat but probably built three ?

Oh, and I decided against the "rivets".

 

 

[mark99]

A fifth manufacturer!