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jez1954

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Just back from a 3 day trip to York - beautiful weather and trip only downside was the idiotic rowing coaches in the centre of York. We moored at Museum Gardens (for the first time) and from 5pm till 9:30pm (yes - in the dark for 1.5 hours) there was a constant stream of rowers out practicing. The rowers are not the problem - it's their coaches following behind in a little outboard powered rib. The wake they create is out of all proportion to their size and they appear to have absolutely no regard for moored boats - we were rocking about on our mooring lines every 30 seconds. I wouldn't mind but the gardens are only about 200 yds long and there are then miles of river upstream to practice on!

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Just back from a 3 day trip to York - beautiful weather and trip only downside was the idiotic rowing coaches in the centre of York. We moored at Museum Gardens (for the first time) and from 5pm till 9:30pm (yes - in the dark for 1.5 hours) there was a constant stream of rowers out practicing. The rowers are not the problem - it's their coaches following behind in a little outboard powered rib. The wake they create is out of all proportion to their size and they appear to have absolutely no regard for moored boats - we were rocking about on our mooring lines every 30 seconds. I wouldn't mind but the gardens are only about 200 yds long and there are then miles of river upstream to practice on!

 

Rowers and their clubs are a law unto themselves. Seem to be immune from speed limits correct side to be on, overtaking, the lot.

I used to take huge delight getting involved with them in my sailing dinghy's over the years. Thames. Lea.

Even tried to disrupt the Oxford & Cambridge boat race once but things got too hot with the officials. So gave it up. Its wonderful just doodling around tacking and so on making them all give way to you. Little do they know given enough wind a sailing dinghy can duck and dive,turn on its own axis much quicker than most of them. Its tremendous fun,but naughty really i suppose. bizzard. :rolleyes:

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Some are a mobile form of fisherman. They pay a small fee, think they can get away with anything, have a desire and right to spread their form of joy to every other user, while abusing said other users for being there...

 

 

There are a few that are more sensible, understanding that an inadvertent nudge from a 60 foot of steel boat will do them no good, and understand that the same boat cannot turn, or stop as fast as they can. The latter are very pleasant to encounter, and very grateful of assistance when they are trying to get their boats out of/into the water when going around locks.

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Just back from a 3 day trip to York - beautiful weather and trip only downside was the idiotic rowing coaches in the centre of York. We moored at Museum Gardens (for the first time) and from 5pm till 9:30pm (yes - in the dark for 1.5 hours) there was a constant stream of rowers out practicing. The rowers are not the problem - it's their coaches following behind in a little outboard powered rib. The wake they create is out of all proportion to their size and they appear to have absolutely no regard for moored boats - we were rocking about on our mooring lines every 30 seconds. I wouldn't mind but the gardens are only about 200 yds long and there are then miles of river upstream to practice on!

 

Yes, the coaching launches are exempt from speed limits. They will, believe it or not, be of a "low-wash" design- but this doesn't mean "no-wash" unfortunately.

 

It's also not always practical for them to slow down past moored boats, because they're providing safety cover to the rowing craft- which is particularly important if the rowers are juniors, under the age of 18, in which case there's some pretty hefty legal responsibilities on the coaches' shoulders. They have to stay with the rowing boats, and if they were to slow down past moored boats, not only would they lose contact with the boats they're covering, but they'd have to run flat out to catch up afterwards. Even in the space of that 200 yards, they could be easily 100 yards away from the boat they're responsible for if they slowed down.

 

It could also be that they are going relatively slowly already! If I were coaching, I would arrange the training outing so that any known moorings would be passed at a normal paddling speed, certainly not flat-out racing practice, which would obviously lead to more wash from the launch. Perhaps they're already doing that- and, to be fair, they could be going flat out instead.

 

 

Rowers and their clubs are a law unto themselves. Seem to be immune from speed limits correct side to be on' date=' overtaking, the lot.

I used to take huge delight getting involved with them in my sailing dinghy's over the years. Thames. Lea.

Even tried to disrupt the Oxford & Cambridge boat race once but things got too hot with the officials. So gave it up. Its wonderful just doodling around tacking and so on making them all give way to you. Little do they know given enough wind a sailing dinghy can duck and dive,turn on its own axis much quicker than most of them. Its tremendous fun,but naughty really i suppose. bizzard. :rolleyes:[/quote']

 

So how was your behaviour any less anti-social than theirs? Seeing as you delighted in getting mixed up in it all. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I'm not surprised that you got a lot of heat from the boat race people. The Port Of London Authority do legally close the river for the duration of the race- and are paid to do so. If you look at the flotilla of boats that follow the race, you can see how unsafe it would have been for you to be on the course at the same time.

 

Some are a mobile form of fisherman. They pay a small fee' date=' think they can get away with anything, have a desire and right to spread their form of joy to every other user, while abusing said other users for being there...

 

 

There are a few that are more sensible, understanding that an inadvertent nudge from a 60 foot of steel boat will do them no good, and understand that the same boat cannot turn, or stop as fast as they can. The latter are very pleasant to encounter, and very grateful of assistance when they are trying to get their boats out of/into the water when going around locks.[/quote']

 

Exactly. There are a few bad apples in every bunch. I can name a few people in the local rowing community who have in the past tried to have mooring banned completely, so they can go back to having completely free reign. Similarly, I know of boaters who go out of their way to disrupt races and training, and (illegally) block the river.

 

At the end of the day, everyone just wants to be out on the river, enjoying themselves. The problem comes when you have two very different mentalities at once. When I'm coxing a rowing boat, I have a specific training plan that I've devised- say, a certain number of "pieces" of work, at a certain speed. If the river is busy and congested, then I have to alter that, but also to do as much of it as I can- which involves being assertive through overtaking, etc., in order to get the training done. However, I will always acknowledge the narrowboat or cruiser that's being overtaken, perhaps with a smile or wave, particularly if they've slowed down to let me past or moved out of my way because I do genuinely appreciate that. I do know what I'm doing, but I'm aware that to an outsider it looks dangerous and foolhardy. There are some people who are dangerous and foolhardy; I'm not one of them.

 

And it must be said that there are a lot of rowers who aren't as aware of what they're doing as they ought to be, who do stupid, thoughtless and selfish things. Trust me when I say that, as a coxswain or coach, it's far, far more frustrating to have the training of my crew disrupted needlessly by another crew behaving stupidly, particularly when you know that they're doing it unnecessarily and that there are a much better and more considerate ways to do things!

 

On the other hand, if I'm narrowboating, I'm much more relaxed and able to appreciate the scenery. I might still be in a rush- I go boating to go to places and cover distance- and I can truly appreciate that there are some very, very stupid rowers out there. Cambridge is full of them. Unfortunately some people do never learn.

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Just back from a 3 day trip to York - beautiful weather and trip only downside was the idiotic rowing coaches in the centre of York. We moored at Museum Gardens (for the first time) and from 5pm till 9:30pm (yes - in the dark for 1.5 hours) there was a constant stream of rowers out practicing. The rowers are not the problem - it's their coaches following behind in a little outboard powered rib. The wake they create is out of all proportion to their size and they appear to have absolutely no regard for moored boats - we were rocking about on our mooring lines every 30 seconds. I wouldn't mind but the gardens are only about 200 yds long and there are then miles of river upstream to practice on!

 

Looks like no one has told them that Rivers are for the exclusive use of pleasure boaters moored up!!!!

I for one will take great delight if England once again win a bucket full of Gold Medals at the Olympics.

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Yes, the coaching launches are exempt from speed limits. They will, believe it or not, be of a "low-wash" design- but this doesn't mean "no-wash" unfortunately.

 

It's also not always practical for them to slow down past moored boats, because they're providing safety cover to the rowing craft- which is particularly important if the rowers are juniors, under the age of 18, in which case there's some pretty hefty legal responsibilities on the coaches' shoulders. They have to stay with the rowing boats, and if they were to slow down past moored boats, not only would they lose contact with the boats they're covering, but they'd have to run flat out to catch up afterwards. Even in the space of that 200 yards, they could be easily 100 yards away from the boat they're responsible for if they slowed down.

 

It could also be that they are going relatively slowly already! If I were coaching, I would arrange the training outing so that any known moorings would be passed at a normal paddling speed, certainly not flat-out racing practice, which would obviously lead to more wash from the launch. Perhaps they're already doing that- and, to be fair, they could be going flat out instead.

 

 

 

 

So how was your behaviour any less anti-social than theirs? Seeing as you delighted in getting mixed up in it all. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I'm not surprised that you got a lot of heat from the boat race people. The Port Of London Authority do legally close the river for the duration of the race- and are paid to do so. If you look at the flotilla of boats that follow the race, you can see how unsafe it would have been for you to be on the course at the same time.

 

 

 

Exactly. There are a few bad apples in every bunch. I can name a few people in the local rowing community who have in the past tried to have mooring banned completely, so they can go back to having completely free reign. Similarly, I know of boaters who go out of their way to disrupt races and training, and (illegally) block the river.

 

At the end of the day, everyone just wants to be out on the river, enjoying themselves. The problem comes when you have two very different mentalities at once. When I'm coxing a rowing boat, I have a specific training plan that I've devised- say, a certain number of "pieces" of work, at a certain speed. If the river is busy and congested, then I have to alter that, but also to do as much of it as I can- which involves being assertive through overtaking, etc., in order to get the training done. However, I will always acknowledge the narrowboat or cruiser that's being overtaken, perhaps with a smile or wave, particularly if they've slowed down to let me past or moved out of my way because I do genuinely appreciate that. I do know what I'm doing, but I'm aware that to an outsider it looks dangerous and foolhardy. There are some people who are dangerous and foolhardy; I'm not one of them.

 

And it must be said that there are a lot of rowers who aren't as aware of what they're doing as they ought to be, who do stupid, thoughtless and selfish things. Trust me when I say that, as a coxswain or coach, it's far, far more frustrating to have the training of my crew disrupted needlessly by another crew behaving stupidly, particularly when you know that they're doing it unnecessarily and that there are a much better and more considerate ways to do things!

 

On the other hand, if I'm narrowboating, I'm much more relaxed and able to appreciate the scenery. I might still be in a rush- I go boating to go to places and cover distance- and I can truly appreciate that there are some very, very stupid rowers out there. Cambridge is full of them. Unfortunately some people do never learn.

 

Yes, the coaching launches are exempt from speed limits. They will, believe it or not, be of a "low-wash" design- but this doesn't mean "no-wash" unfortunately.

 

It's also not always practical for them to slow down past moored boats, because they're providing safety cover to the rowing craft- which is particularly important if the rowers are juniors, under the age of 18, in which case there's some pretty hefty legal responsibilities on the coaches' shoulders. They have to stay with the rowing boats, and if they were to slow down past moored boats, not only would they lose contact with the boats they're covering, but they'd have to run flat out to catch up afterwards. Even in the space of that 200 yards, they could be easily 100 yards away from the boat they're responsible for if they slowed down.

 

It could also be that they are going relatively slowly already! If I were coaching, I would arrange the training outing so that any known moorings would be passed at a normal paddling speed, certainly not flat-out racing practice, which would obviously lead to more wash from the launch. Perhaps they're already doing that- and, to be fair, they could be going flat out instead.

 

 

 

 

So how was your behaviour any less anti-social than theirs? Seeing as you delighted in getting mixed up in it all. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I'm not surprised that you got a lot of heat from the boat race people. The Port Of London Authority do legally close the river for the duration of the race- and are paid to do so. If you look at the flotilla of boats that follow the race, you can see how unsafe it would have been for you to be on the course at the same time.

 

 

 

Exactly. There are a few bad apples in every bunch. I can name a few people in the local rowing community who have in the past tried to have mooring banned completely, so they can go back to having completely free reign. Similarly, I know of boaters who go out of their way to disrupt races and training, and (illegally) block the river.

 

At the end of the day, everyone just wants to be out on the river, enjoying themselves. The problem comes when you have two very different mentalities at once. When I'm coxing a rowing boat, I have a specific training plan that I've devised- say, a certain number of "pieces" of work, at a certain speed. If the river is busy and congested, then I have to alter that, but also to do as much of it as I can- which involves being assertive through overtaking, etc., in order to get the training done. However, I will always acknowledge the narrowboat or cruiser that's being overtaken, perhaps with a smile or wave, particularly if they've slowed down to let me past or moved out of my way because I do genuinely appreciate that. I do know what I'm doing, but I'm aware that to an outsider it looks dangerous and foolhardy. There are some people who are dangerous and foolhardy; I'm not one of them.

 

And it must be said that there are a lot of rowers who aren't as aware of what they're doing as they ought to be, who do stupid, thoughtless and selfish things. Trust me when I say that, as a coxswain or coach, it's far, far more frustrating to have the training of my crew disrupted needlessly by another crew behaving stupidly, particularly when you know that they're doing it unnecessarily and that there are a much better and more considerate ways to do things!

 

On the other hand, if I'm narrowboating, I'm much more relaxed and able to appreciate the scenery. I might still be in a rush- I go boating to go to places and cover distance- and I can truly appreciate that there are some very, very stupid rowers out there. Cambridge is full of them. Unfortunately some people do never learn.

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Good lord,i didn't think that i had or could cause all that much disruption,This was only my little 10'10'' Mirror dinghy but i don't think the support boats would have been much of a threat to it,as long as there's a bit of a wind can dodge about all over the shop.

If it had been my old Fireball in a good wind and planing along would have left everything standing especially with me crew on the trapeze,who wasn't incontinent, and still powered craft would have to give way. Rough waters no problem to most sailing dinghy's.they love it, as we sailed in virtually all conditions on the coast,winter and summer.

When racing of course sailing boats seem and do speed also when racing on speed restricted waters,its the competitive adrenalin rush init, and also seem exempt from adhering to speed limits,although are just as controllable as pulling boats,you can sail them as fast as you want whatever the wind speed,or a rowing boat,skif 8 or whatever sort it is, can also be rowed slowly,i suppose we must all put up with each others watersport pursuits,a bit like the boater fishermen thing,i'm sobering up now, Morgans spiced rum yer know.I think that all budding rowers,canoeists,sailors all dream that one day they perhaps may become tremendous ''at it'',and with all out practice MIGHT one day reach the dizzy heights of Olympic champion standards,but of course %99 don't, so all the noise of coxswains and coaches bawling and shouting and generally disturbing the peace,can all be in vain. i don't do it any more though,got run down by a Leigh-on-Sea cockle boat. An old saying.Epitaph ''Here lies the body of William Grey,who thought he had the right of way''.bizzard :cheers:

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Good lord,i didn't think that i had or could cause all that much disruption,This was only my little 10'10'' Mirror dinghy but i don't think the support boats would have been much of a threat to it,as long as there's a bit of a wind can dodge about all over the shop.

If it had been my old Fireball in a good wind and planing along would have left everything standing especially with me crew on the trapeze,who wasn't incontinent, and still powered craft would have to give way. Rough waters no problem to most sailing dinghy's.they love it, as we sailed in virtually all conditions on the coast,winter and summer.

When racing of course sailing boats seem and do speed also when racing on speed restricted waters,its the competitive adrenalin rush init, and also seem exempt from adhering to speed limits,although are just as controllable as pulling boats,you can sail them as fast as you want whatever the wind speed,or a rowing boat,skif 8 or whatever sort it is, can also be rowed slowly,i suppose we must all put up with each others watersport pursuits,a bit like the boater fishermen thing,i'm sobering up now, Morgans spiced rum yer know.I think that all budding rowers,canoeists,sailors all dream that one day they perhaps may become tremendous ''at it'',and with all out practice MIGHT one day reach the dizzy heights of Olympic champion standards,but of course %99 don't, so all the noise of coxswains and coaches bawling and shouting and generally disturbing the peace,can all be in vain. i don't do it any more though,got run down by a Leigh-on-Sea cockle boat. An old saying.Epitaph ''Here lies the body of William Grey,who thought he had the right of way''.bizzard :cheers:

 

 

2:16 onwards. You really think you'd be happy and safe in that wash? Even if you were, you'd be poorer, as the PLA would fine you.

 

The thing is, at whatever level you're at, you can still have a goal that you're working incredibly hard to achieve, even if it's not the Olympics. It could be winning the Novice category at a small local head-race against only a couple of other crews, or it could be winning the Boat Race, a World Cup or ultimately an Olympic medal. I don't think anyone at any level of the sport would think that their effort would be in vain if they didn't have an Olympic medal at the end of it.

 

It doesn't help that you're sitting with your back to the direction of travel :) I've had a go at coxing and the steering is pretty unresponsive - the rudder is only about the size of a fag packet!

 

But there's no feeling like taking a 60' eight that's worth as much as your narrowboat around a tight corner with the blades on the inside just swishing the grass as you turn, and making up a lot of distance on the crew in front of you through good steering.

 

It might only be the size of a fag packet, but it's what you do with it that counts! :)

 

Looks like no one has told them that Rivers are for the exclusive use of pleasure boaters moored up!!!!

I for one will take great delight if England once again win a bucket full of Gold Medals at the Olympics.

 

Great Britain, not England :)

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2:16 onwards. You really think you'd be happy and safe in that wash? Even if you were, you'd be poorer, as the PLA would fine you.

 

The thing is, at whatever level you're at, you can still have a goal that you're working incredibly hard to achieve, even if it's not the Olympics. It could be winning the Novice category at a small local head-race against only a couple of other crews, or it could be winning the Boat Race, a World Cup or ultimately an Olympic medal. I don't think anyone at any level of the sport would think that their effort would be in vain if they didn't have an Olympic medal at the end of it.

Watched the film,the wash would be nothing to a sailing dinghy,they thrive in rough water,indeed as they need wind to drive them it invariably is a bit rough or very rough. Benfleet creek can be rougher than that in a force 3.and looking at some of the top heavy support boats,i'd say they'd probably capsize in Benfleet creek.

However i quite like a spot of rowing myself,not competitively though,and sculling about with one oar, 3 men in a boat sort of stuff.So indeed lets all chase our goals in a pleasant and peaceful manner. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

But there's no feeling like taking a 60' eight that's worth as much as your narrowboat around a tight corner with the blades on the inside just swishing the grass as you turn, and making up a lot of distance on the crew in front of you through good steering.

 

It might only be the size of a fag packet, but it's what you do with it that counts! :)

 

 

 

Great Britain, not England :)

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Bizzard,,,are you aware your avatar is looking more and more like Gadaffi every day....

Really,it was supposed to be Cleopatra as portrayed by Elizabeth Taylor in the film,although baccy wasn't about then,will have another bash at it tomorrow. bizzard.

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I suppose the thing about the rowers in York is that the Museum Gardens is directly opposite York Rowing Club and just south of another rowing club (St Peters?)

 

Both use that stretch intensively for training.

 

I always notice that you get a larger wash from smaller boats when you're moored there. The big York boats barely make any water movement at all. No idea why that it, but the river's so wide I don't think anyone slows down to pass moored boats. I quite like the bobbing up & down feeling, so not worried about it :)

 

If the rowers are bothering you, try Queen's Staith instead.

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2:16 onwards. You really think you'd be happy and safe in that wash? Even if you were, you'd be poorer, as the PLA would fine you.

 

Leaving aside for a moment the incredible temerity of the OP to believe that the York rivers should be reserved for his exclusive use, thus relieving him of the tedious chore of mooring his boat properly....

 

 

 

The energy that goes into making the wash could be driving the boat. Is it not possible to design a skiff or canoe to make less wash and so harness that energy. What's the hydrodynamic theory here, Mr Scarlet?

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Leaving aside for a moment the incredible temerity of the OP to believe that the York rivers should be reserved for his exclusive use, thus relieving him of the tedious chore of mooring his boat properly....

 

 

 

The energy that goes into making the wash could be driving the boat. Is it not possible to design a skiff or canoe to make less wash and so harness that energy. What's the hydrodynamic theory here, Mr Scarlet?

I always noticed the canoes from Cropredy moved the boat more than a narrowboat passing and they can only be moving a fraction of the water of something 60 X 7 ft weighing in at about 18 tons

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the OP said the training/safety boat that was accompanying the rowers was a RIB,not a suitable craft for the purpose.

 

most of the upper thames rowing clubs use purpose built launches which are shallow draft and light.

 

they make very little wash mainly as a result of the outboard motor being mounted in a well which is a metre or so forward of the launch's transom,the surface disturbance is significantly suppressed.

 

a rib of modest length will cause a good deal of wash and draw when changing from dispacement to planing speeds,especially if more than one person is aboard.

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I always noticed the canoes from Cropredy moved the boat more than a narrowboat passing and they can only be moving a fraction of the water of something 60 X 7 ft weighing in at about 18 tons

 

I wonder if it's to do with the Oxford Canal being so shallow and narrow? Our mooring is next to a canoe hire centre - on a busy day we must get canoes crashing into us a dozen times. We don't notice them coming past us and we only notice them crashing because of the noise.

 

To the OP - if the wash from rowing coaches boats bothers you - don't whatever you do visit the Thames and especially not Henley. You'll have a nervous breakdown.

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Leaving aside for a moment the incredible temerity of the OP to believe that the York rivers should be reserved for his exclusive use, thus relieving him of the tedious chore of mooring his boat properly....

 

 

 

The energy that goes into making the wash could be driving the boat. Is it not possible to design a skiff or canoe to make less wash and so harness that energy. What's the hydrodynamic theory here, Mr Scarlet?

 

What on earth are you talking about? I never suggested the river was solely for my use and I said it was the rib used by the coach that was making a large wash - not the rowing skiff.

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Leaving aside for a moment the incredible temerity of the OP to believe that the York rivers should be reserved for his exclusive use, thus relieving him of the tedious chore of mooring his boat properly....

 

 

 

The energy that goes into making the wash could be driving the boat. Is it not possible to design a skiff or canoe to make less wash and so harness that energy. What's the hydrodynamic theory here, Mr Scarlet?

 

As Cereal Tiller points out, most clubs use very low-wash designs, such as this{/url] or this. Often they're designed to be long and thin for minimal wash, although sometimes other boats are used.

 

I'd say that the flotilla following the Boat Race aren't designed with that requirement in mind! There's a 30 minute gap between the Goldie-Isis (Reserve crews) race and the Boat Race to allow the wash to dissipate.

 

Certainly the most fun boat that I've ever steered was a coaching launch. 20' or so, about 3' wide, with a 15hp outboard in a well. Great fun!

 

the OP said the training/safety boat that was accompanying the rowers was a RIB' date='not a suitable craft for the purpose.

 

most of the upper thames rowing clubs use purpose built launches which are shallow draft and light.

 

they make very little wash mainly as a result of the outboard motor being mounted in a well which is a metre or so forward of the launch's transom,the surface disturbance is significantly suppressed.

 

a rib of modest length will cause a good deal of wash and draw when changing from dispacement to planing speeds,especially if more than one person is aboard.[/quote']

 

Playing devil's advocate for a second: Yes, you're correct. The thing is, purpose-built coaching launches are quite expensive, as the links above show.

 

The boat is also required to fulfil several functions- to be fast enough to keep up with a rowing boat going flat out- about 20kph for the best- whilst making as little wash as possible.

 

They also have to be capable of taking all the crew of the rowing boat aboard at once, though, if the rowing boat sinks. So the boat has to take one or two people normally, but up to 11, safely, in bad conditions without itself sinking!

 

And, finally, it has to be affordable, because the majority of rowing clubs aren't that well off.

 

These are very hard conditions to fulfil in one boat. I fully agree that a RIB is less than ideal, because it will make annoying amounts of wash; and the rowing club themselves might not like it, either! It could be that this is the only thing they can afford, and that fulfilling the cheapness, keeping-up and safety passenger requirements were seen as more important than the low wash requirements.

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