g.u wideboat progress

[Derek R.]

I know I've said it before as have others as above, but such work is so very rare nowadays when 70 or 80yrs ago it may well have been commonplace. Such skills as were almost taken for granted are indeed now very rare, and when come across by anyone who has worked raw materials in todays world - all the more awesome because it is no longer commonplace. Just seeing and reading of Chris's experience is an education in itself.

[chris collins]

Pluto, thanks for sharing that, the photo illustrates the shape very well, the planking seems to be about halfway between traditional canal style widths and “normal” maritime practice. I've never really had an opportunity to study the wooden L&L boats so any other photos/ info you can share, and in particular construction details would be well appreciated.

Pen n ink, I've never built a curved staircase ( or any other staircase) so lets stand together and raise a glass to the gods of trees, wood, tools and skills, long may it last.

Derek, As you allude to, the development of skills is linked to demand, and unfortunately wooden boatbuilding is in pretty low demand right now. In the wider scheme of things, although we have built machines that require minimum of human input to efficiently produce high quality “articles” for our consumption, and it cannot be denied that the material lives of all of us have been enriched by such manufacturing, one of the hidden costs is the loss of handcraft skills. It is difficult to see many youngsters being able to finance the 10,000 or so hours that turns a talent into a skill that, frankly, will pay a good deal less than the same time invested in a white collar job.

So unfortunately it looks increasingly likely that, just as we now have children that don't realise that chips are made from potatoes, we could have a generation of children that have never witnessed anything being made.

Hey ho, it's not really that long ago that being a knight in shining armour would have been a great skill to have, not a lot of use on the M25 now, time moves on regardless.

[deckhand]

Can I add, I am totally lost on most of what has been written on this thread, however, looking at these pictures, I too, am totally "in awe" of the work and design that obviously went in to the making of these old boats and I probably do not even know the half of it.

I would never want one and I cannot understand anyone taking on the enormous project of refurbishing something in the state of the boat "Progress" in the pictures which means I am even more "in awe",

 

I can only wish you good luck but I also add that I would like to see pictures as the project develops.

[Bee]

There really should be a book in it.

[Pluto]

This is another L&LC motor boat, the Roland, built for the coal trade. The run aft is quite similar to Pluto's.

 

Horse and dumb boats were very similar, as seen here, with Juno in Burscough dock. The fineness of the run aft could well have been even better on earlier horse boats.

 

The bows on Lancashire-built boats were finer than those from Yorkshire. This is Tug 57, originally built in Lancashire around 1890.

 

Yorkshire boats, such as Dorothy Pax, were much bluffer, the shape created by the way the framing was constructed. The framing continued to be transverse well towards the bow, with short frames then being added almost at right angles to form the bow, with 'hooks', sometimes fabricated in three pieces, behind the stem post to add strength. The hood ends of the planks were fitted into a rebated stem post, a reminder of their clinker build origins.

 

This can also be seen here, on Angela Jane, where the ends of the spikes pass right through the frames and are then bent over. Note also the way the frames are set out to maximise carrying capacity.

 

Lancashire built boats had radial framing at bow and stern, which was not quite so good for carrying capacity, but made the boats handle better. Lancashire boats were based on carvel build technology, and the difference in construction either side of the Pennines reflects the differences in origins of constructional methods.

 

I did publish an article on the different boat building techniques used on canals and estuaries in Waterways Journal vol 3, 2001. I can send you the text if you PM me.

[chris collins]

Pluto, that's fantastic, I'm full of questions about the when / where /who of the builds, the origins of the regional differences, so first off I'll send you a message about your article, many thanks.

[ditchcrawler]

Can I add, I am totally lost on most of what has been written on this thread, however, looking at these pictures, I too, am totally "in awe" of the work and design that obviously went in to the making of these old boats and I probably do not even know the half of it.

I would never want one and I cannot understand anyone taking on the enormous project of refurbishing something in the state of the boat "Progress" in the pictures which means I am even more "in awe",

 

I can only wish you good luck but I also add that I would like to see pictures as the project develops.

I am 100% with you with that posting

[Speedwheel]

Just seen this on Facebook. Might be of interest.

 

[Tam & Di]

Just seen this on Facebook. Might be of interest.

 

 

I've not seen that photo before. It's Mr Chapman of the Boatman's Mission at Brentford I think. He tried to persuade us to hold a Christmas party for the boatman's kids when we had Progress in the 60s, but we chickened out.

 

Interestingly that photo seems to be before BWB chopped her about by cutting the side decks back to widen the space between the coamings to put a crane in her. That was the act that so insensed George Beauchamp (George the Crane), her steerer on maintenance, that somehow the top of the mudbox fell off and Progress sank on the Cowley tip.

 

At least that did allow us to buy her. We did quite a bit of work ourselves in an amateur sort of way, and John Wooley did some replanking of the waterline for us.

 

Tam

[chris collins]

Speedwheel, that's brilliant, I've spent the last 25 years looking at pictures of “Progress” and I've never come across this one before. It looks very early on as it still has the hatch covers and life rings, the kind of things that could get misplaced or damaged. It also doesn't appear to show any loaded tide mark (could just be the photo?)

Tam / Di I'm hoping that one day when your over this direction you'll drop in and have a look over, maybe give us a call beforehand as the yard gate is normally locked.

I've just been reading the post about “Mossdale” and it's really nice to see that moves are afoot to prolong it's preservation, lots and lots of goodwill and goodluck to all involved.

Reading through the post there are a couple of “general wooden boat preservation” points that could be worth a thought. With regard to the criticism levelled at the museum it's worth bearing in mind that working boats underwent a long period of development to suit the purpose for which they where built and the change of use to “static exhibit” is very much at odds with that evolution. The deterioration of an ex working vessel is accelerated in many subtle ways just by standing still, some,such as the constant waterline and sunny / shaded sides are obvious, others take time to manifest themselves. It's worth considering the role of free air movement as an example, whilst a boat is being used there would be an almost constant flow of air over, round and through the vessel, from the movement of the boat itself, the people moving within, open doors / hatches, a lighted stove, the list could go on, all contribute to moving the layer of saturated air close to any damp surface (inside or out) of the vessel and replacing it with drier air in a constant and beneficial cycle. (A useful analogy here is how much quicker your washing dries when there is a breeze to move the saturated air layer close to the surface, far more effective than temperature alone). Our static exhibit may well be shut up for weeks on end, clothed up to keep the rain out and in the process excluding any beneficial breeze available. The average air humidity level in this country is around 60% , at 90% air humidity wood becomes sufficiently wet to promote and support the brown rot organisms, clearly the inevitable condensation (100%humidity) cycle within a closed cabin or hold area is far greater on our “static exhibit”and hugely increases the risk of the growth of spoilage organisms. With such things in mind it's pretty clear that if boatbuilders had been developing a “static exhibit” over the last few hundred years we would now be looking at a completely different shape and construction. As things stand there is a very real possibility that a newly rebuilt “Progress” or suchlike could have a considerably shorter lifespan as a “static exhibit” or “occasionally used recreational vehicle” than in it's original life.

At the present time the “craft” of “looking after” our small and dwindling stock of vessels is a long way below the “critical mass” of experiences, solutions and communications needed to build a solid and sound protocol for long term preservation, the small number of vessels involved, the (comparatively) short term involvement of the people exposed to the experiences and the geographically fragmented nature of those experiences hinder the validation and potential enlightenment concealed therein.

So, as you'll probably of guessed, I have a certain amount of sympathy for anybody that tries to prolong the life of a wooden ex working boat.

[BuckbyLocks]

Thank you Chris for putting forward such a well reasoned argument. (And the best of luck with what you are doing.)

[chris collins]

Spiling part 1

In a (much) earlier post I did try to describe the process of “spiling” to get an accurate template for a plank, I'm hoping that you won't mind if I revisit the subject in order to try and clarify it a bit. It's a bit image heavy so I'll have to post it in two parts, hopefully it will be helpful to someone.

The mythical, magical spiling board is not quite as exotic as it sounds, just a board that you can clamp to the boat and make notations on. It helps if it is thin enough to be reasonably flexible, wide enough to support itself along it's length fairly well and free from large knots or other faults that may influence the fairness of any bend that you may put in it. Normally the shape of the fore end will require more than one board to be joined to get around the sny in the plank, on “Progress” this has been required for the stern as well. This board is on it's third rebuilding job, it's about 20 foot long, six inches wide and around half inch thick.

Occasionally the original frames can be used to support the spiling board but it is worth having a long hard look at what the original builder had intended and whether those frames are still an accurate representation of that intent, very often age and a hard life have taken their toll.

On this side of the fore end of “Progress” the decision was made simple when the port quarter collapsed in a pile of mushroom compost interspersed with bits of plank and frame, luckily the starboard side has stayed relatively intact to act as a pattern. So, first job is to put up some temporary frames to support the spiling board.

The line of the frames, shape and depth of the hoodings and the top edge of the plank can be checked by hanging battens as needed, the top edge of the plank is worth checking carefully as it's quite possible that this may have been influenced by the the timber available at the time of the original build, you've then got the choice of following the original intent or the original result, you will of course be damned if you do and damned if you don't but at least you'll be making a decision based on knowledge.

When you are happy that all is fair and accurate you can hang the board, as can be seen here the shape of the proposed plank precludes the use of a straight spiling board for the full length, at the far end the “straight” board will be rising again to the boundary of the top edge of the plank . At this point I'm still about 8ft away from the stempost and will need to join more pieces on in order to achieve the shape.

It is vitally important that the spiling board sits snug to it's supports, particularly around the fore and aft curves as any discrepancy is magnified by the increased effective radius multiplied by Pi. The worst case scenario is where the lower edge of the plank is snug but the top edge is angled slightly outwards, the resulting plank will carry a disproportional amount of material along it's top edge. The extra material will not only affect the stretching and compression stresses when we start to bend the plank but also it's shape lengthways as any attempt to clamp in the resulting bulge will want to push the ends of the plank in a downward direction. If the plank is the right shape it will usually “allow” us to make the bend and although it won't exactly “fall” into shape it's noticeable that it will pull round and hold it's shape with a bare minimum of clamps.

The blocks are where I have started to join on more pieces to follow the shape along and round to the stempost.

So board(s) in place, time to start marking, choose your weapon......

Simple, efficient and proven over many years, if there is sufficient space around the spiling board then purpose made spiling blocks work really well. Mark your line along the full width of the top of the block to aid alignment when transposing your marks. One of the advantages of using spiling blocks is that you can mark both sides of the spiling board relatively easily, this can be very useful later when you are sorting through the timber pile as it often saves having to turn over the flitch to see if your proposed plank will fit.

Normally a “set” of blocks is required to cover for the varying distance 'tween board and plank edge.

Just remember to mark which block was used where!

As all you are doing is making repeatable marks on the spiling board there are other methods, a simple consistent measurement such as this backed up with a line along the edge of the rule to aid alignment works fine, people working on smaller boats often use compasses.

All marks are taken from the inside edge of the plank as this is the most important side for us to get right, often the outer side is the larger due to the plank bevel but it is still more accurate to mark the inside first and use it as a datum to then mark the outer.

When you are sure that you have got all the marks you need (plus a few for luck) carefully take the spiling board down, I like to use a template at the hood end for a bit of added reassurance. Lots of care handling the board over to the timber pile helps preserve the accuracy.

[chris collins]

Spiling part 2.

At this point we need to “take” the bevels, start by making station marks, I normally mark every twelve inches, number the stations. At each station take the angle that the back of the proposed plank will meet the top of the plank below with. It's worth taking the time to get this right as it helps massively in getting the plank to sit correctly once bent.

Now find a strip of wood as wide as your plank is thick and transfer this angle across the face, number the mark to match the station and so on through the length of the proposed plank, as you work along the straight section the bevel should remain constant.

Back to our board, normally you can be certain that the board you need will be at the bottom of the pile.

So, having found a board that we can avoid any faults on we can start to transfer our marks. Either with the appropriate spiling block.......

Or by ruler ….. A nail at each point acts as a register to form a batten around ready for marking. Once the inside line is marked we'll need to mark our station marks for the bevels.

On the majority of narrowboat planks the outer side of the plank will be the widest so we'll need to add enough material to allow us to cut the bevel. We can mark our 12 inch stations along the proposed lower edge line and refer to our bevel board to get the amount to be added at each station once again using a batten to join the dots for marking.

If all goes well we'll have laid the foundations for a good tight fitting joint(s). So, hopefully that's clarified the process, happy spiling.

[Laurence Hogg]

Fantastic work Chris, thanks for keeping this story alive, its worthy of a full blown article in Narrowboat Magazine (are you reading this Hugh?), really well done so far.

[chris collins]

A little bit bit off track but hopefully of interest, A long time ago Tony Walker (Walker Bros) gave me a copy of this tender originally submitted to Associated Canal Carriers. I'm sure that he would have passed copies on to other people over the years and I'm equally sure that he would have put it in the public domain had the internet been available. It's possible that one of the nice knowledgeable people on the forum might tidy it up a bit and make it more legible.

[Laurence Hogg]

Wonderful, wonderful, how do I place my order and is there discount for two pairs? peraphs say £2150 all in?

 

Oh the magic of reading that spec, spare masthead lamp glasses at 3/- (three shillings = 15p) how much would one fetch today?

Thanks for putting up Chris.

[IanM]

Wonderful, wonderful, how do I place my order and is there discount for two pairs? peraphs say £2150 all in?

 

Oh the magic of reading that spec, spare masthead lamp glasses at 3/- (three shillings = 15p) how much would one fetch today?

Thanks for putting up Chris.

 

Sticking 3 shillings in 1931 through this suggests that with inflation it is the equivalent of £8.64 in today's money

 

The whole tender total being £63,924.98

Edited March 25, 2014 by IanM

[Timleech]

Interesting about spiling for the inner face. I always did it for the outer face, using a board spaced from the frames on blocks to bring it out to represent the plank thickness.

Probably because, if replacing individual planks on a Narrow Boat with the shearing still in place it was the only option. It worked, so never really considered doing it any other way, though I can see that sometimes using the inner face may be better.

 

Tim

[chris collins]

1931, an “average” saloon car retails around £300, a Bentley ( chassis only) around £2000, makes a pair of boats at £1050 sound like a bargain.

2014, £63,924.98, well, it would cover the materials..............

Tim, in the past I have tried spiling to the outside lines, of the two I find spiling to the inside to give a better fit on the mating surfaces, but for sure I can't build a pair of boats for £63,924.98, so, as they say...you pays your money.....

[chris collins]

A long ,long time since the last post so you'll be expecting something nearing completion..............unfortunately the spring and early summer disappeared clearing the backlog of jobs that had built up, docking my own boat. I guess the clue to that one is in the name.

SPA50129 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

Maintenance on “Mimas” and the other Troy wharf craft, maintenance of the Troy arm itself etc, etc.

SPA50135 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

SPA50137 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

One high point was a visit from Tam & Di, great to get a bit of background on their time of ownership, I hope they have a bit more time next visit.

The first narrowboat that I rebuilt took 18 months and each successive one has taken longer, I'll claim that the quality is much better but truth be told I'm older and slower as well. It's also the case “that the more you learn - the more there is to learn ” all of which takes time.

Anyway it seems as though it's taken 18 months to working around the counter area, (It hasn't but it certainly feels like it ) . Good job G.U.C.C aren't waiting for the launch.

It has certainly been “interesting” just how much bigger and heavier the component parts of “Progress” have been, bit's that would be about the limit of my strength on a normal narrowboat are the source of double and triple curses, hat's off to Bushell bros for the first build.

SPA50190 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

SPA50191 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

Earlier in the thread Lawrence kindly forwarded a set of blueprints for a steel version of “Progress” and I am pretty sure that the intention was to build the proposed fleet of wide boats in steel, I am also pretty sure that the lines/shape for the wooden “Progress” where taken directly from the “steel” drawings. It is around the stern area that the quirks and foibles of this approach really becomes apparent. It's a lovely shape but you can't help but think that Bushell's would have felt a little compromised by some of the construction details needed to achieve said shape.

SPA50217 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

SPA50214 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

It's fair to say that given a few more “Progresses” to build Bushell would have developed the plank shapes around the stern for easier fitting, at the moment some are such that they can't be positioned until they have been bent, but, they can't be bent until they are twisted, and , you guessed, they can't be twisted until they have been positioned. Hence the clamp fest and a lot of fiddly farting about, (that farting bit could just be an age thing).

SPA50216 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

So, the planks are still not fastened to the frames, I will need at some stage to use a few temporary fasteners as the planking gets higher. For now I'll admit to being quite pleased at the way that the planks are holding their shape, people quite often ask “how much bend will a steamed plank retain if unfastened?” and this photo gives a clue, not scientific but a bit of fun.

SPA50078 by chriscollins1, on Flickr

[stagedamager]

Thanks for the update, I love following this thread, great work as ever!

[Ray T]

Thanks for the update, I love following this thread, great work as ever!

 

Yes, I can only echo the above comment.

[Richard T]

Chris, Thank you for sharing your photos and 'progress' report. I admire what you are doing. Please keep posting on this forum.

All the best

Richard

[Derek R.]

It's a firm reminder of just how much skill was around in the every day world of manufacture, let alone boat building that has largely passed by. Gone seem to be the days when apprentices paid to work and learn their skills. Now students are in debt to learn - and still no guarantee of employment.

 

I know the age thing - even getting the coal in seems more of an effort! Brilliant work as usual Chris. I can only sit and draw such things.

[Pluto]

Look on the bright side, Dorothy Pax no longer survives, so you don't have to think about her restoration!