harral brokerage update

[Liam]

And here's the replacement at Wincharm Wharf

 

Narrow Boats Ltd

[Timleech]

And here's the replacement at Wincharm Wharf

 

Narrow Boats Ltd

 

Whoever designed that website should be condemned to stare at it for a whole week!

 

Tim

[FredDrift]

Its the same old song again ....... http://www.ashboats.co.uk/index.asp

 

Looks like Harral Brokerage Services Ltd will be handling the cash for Ashboats.

 

the very last line of the Ashboats 'Contact Us' page is.....................

 

"I will require HBSL to terminate this finance agreement by payment of the outstanding balance to the finance company."

Edited October 13, 2011 by happynomad

[Dominic M]

That's what I thought was the case with folk like yourself at Rugby Boats and ABNB.

 

I guess we as punters need to ask if a broker is a member and how the money is dealt with.

 

Is the cost of setting up and running the client accounts a significant cost? Apart from a reason like a business "can't be bothered" I don't see it as much of an overhead on time or money but you are in the position to know.

Sorry for the delay in responding but I've only just clocked this post. The overhead is the cost of membership of the BMF, and the hassle of having to get a bank to confirm that the client account is genuinely protected. It is a requirement that all client funds are held in that account until completion of sale - deposits and proceeds of the sale. There is also the additional cost of Professional Indemnity Insurance. Not really a big deal (approx £1200 p.a), but the Code of Conduct for membership requires the broker to do their best to establish that a boat is indeed owned by the vendor, that the law is complied with (such as the RCD CE requirements where applicable is adhered to, that the vendor warrants that the craft is free of any debts that may be attached to it (marine mortgage being the most obvious one), and that we offer all our customers a cuppa when they pop over. Actually, this last bit is not true, but I do anyway In other words, a level of professional service is expected.

 

The first thing to look out for are the BMF and BRBA logos. If a broker doesn't display these prominently on their website and marketing material then they probably are not a member.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Dominic M

[matty40s]

and that we offer all our customers a cuppa when they pop over. Actually, this last bit is not true, but I do anyway

 

Not many brokerages offer this view from the bar either Dominic......

Edited October 13, 2011 by matty40s

[Dominic M]

 

 

Not many brokerages offer this view from the bar either Dominic......

Location, location, location

[churchward]

Sorry for the delay in responding but I've only just clocked this post. The overhead is the cost of membership of the BMF, and the hassle of having to get a bank to confirm that the client account is genuinely protected. It is a requirement that all client funds are held in that account until completion of sale - deposits and proceeds of the sale. There is also the additional cost of Professional Indemnity Insurance. Not really a big deal (approx £1200 p.a), but the Code of Conduct for membership requires the broker to do their best to establish that a boat is indeed owned by the vendor, that the law is complied with (such as the RCD CE requirements where applicable is adhered to, that the vendor warrants that the craft is free of any debts that may be attached to it (marine mortgage being the most obvious one), and that we offer all our customers a cuppa when they pop over. Actually, this last bit is not true, but I do anyway In other words, a level of professional service is expected.

 

The first thing to look out for are the BMF and BRBA logos. If a broker doesn't display these prominently on their website and marketing material then they probably are not a member.

Thanks very much for the reply.

 

I think the set-up you describe is vital in giving the customer, seller or buyer some peace of mind and trust in the trader and the validity of the boats circumstances. It doesn't seem a huge expense or bother to go through and I know where I would want to sell my boat or spend my money buying!

[P R]

How does someone with mr Harrals reputation have nearly 30 boats on his new firms books already?

[MtB]

Its easy when you are in a business which does not rely on repeat customers or reputation. How many peeps buy/sell boat more than a handful of times in a lifetime? Why would it REALLY matter if you stiff a batch of them for a load of money once in a while (other than the need to be able to sleep at night)?

 

Once you figure out a way to lure in the punter and get them fully committed to using you, in you can treat them like dirt. Punters assume expensive adverts mean an established business with a good reputation so don't bother to carry out even the most basic of checks. I saw and learned this when I worked at Dolphin Bathrooms for a short time. After all, the nice glossy magazines you saw the adverts in would not accept adverts from a rogue trader would they? ...WOULD THEY????????

 

If you are amoral and happy to shaft people then any non-repeat-customer business is ideal. Estate agency, boat brokerage, house extension building, new kitchens, double glazing, boat-building, boiler-repairs.... all 'one hit and you're gone' businesses which attract the rogues and scoundrels like flies.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[Athy]

The Harral-bashing continues unabated. I'm really quite startled that some of my forum colleagues are like terriers worrying a rabbit (sorry, Dennis) with regard to the man. I received the new issue of Waterways World yesterday; in it there is an interview with Stephen Harral in which he states that he does have a conscience and that he intends to ensure that people who are owed money do not lose out. Much as we may deplore the grammar of that last expression, can we not give him a fair chance to prove that he means what he says?

[P R]

The Harral-bashing continues unabated. I'm really quite startled that some of my forum colleagues are like terriers worrying a rabbit (sorry, Dennis) with regard to the man. I received the new issue of Waterways World yesterday; in it there is an interview with Stephen Harral in which he states that he does have a conscience and that he intends to ensure that people who are owed money do not lose out. Much as we may deplore the grammar of that last expression, can we not give him a fair chance to prove that he means what he says?

Why should he be given a chance when his terms and conditions remain the same, no seperate account for customers money! I think that if you sold your boat but did not get paid you may have a different opinion

[DaveG]

The Harral-bashing continues unabated. I'm really quite startled that some of my forum colleagues are like terriers worrying a rabbit (sorry, Dennis) with regard to the man. I received the new issue of Waterways World yesterday; in it there is an interview with Stephen Harral in which he states that he does have a conscience and that he intends to ensure that people who are owed money do not lose out. Much as we may deplore the grammar of that last expression, can we not give him a fair chance to prove that he means what he says?

Why do you call it "Harral-bashing"? This is not a witch hunt but exasperation against a man who has liquidated a company owing people substantial sums of money seemingly at no detriment to himself - these are not piddling little rip-offs, they are decent peoples' investments. The best crooks and con-men are always the most plausible - he's hardly likely to tell a magazine he couldn't give a damn and has no intention of paying anyone back, and I don't suppose it says in the interview that he already has five failed companies behind him. Remember, first and foremost he is a salesman, and the key to success is, above all, the ability to sell one's self. The boating press is like any other sales-based media and will continue to claim everything in the garden is rosy because that's how they generate advertising revenue.

Edited October 14, 2011 by DaveG

[mayalld]

The Harral-bashing continues unabated. I'm really quite startled that some of my forum colleagues are like terriers worrying a rabbit (sorry, Dennis) with regard to the man. I received the new issue of Waterways World yesterday; in it there is an interview with Stephen Harral in which he states that he does have a conscience and that he intends to ensure that people who are owed money do not lose out. Much as we may deplore the grammar of that last expression, can we not give him a fair chance to prove that he means what he says?

 

Words are cheap.

 

Just as soon as he pays every penny that people have lost, and arranges his business affairs in such a way as to ensure that this can never happen again, I will sing his praises. Until then, empty words about putting things right cut no ice.

[Athy]

Why do you call it "Harral-bashing"? This is not a witch hunt.

1) Because that's what it appears to be.

2) I rather think that it is.

 

Members have made their points ad infinitum, and sometimes ad nauseam, but will not let this matter lie and move on to something else.

Then again, I have made my point too, which is that my experience of Harral's was a good and positive one, so now I'll shut up and move on.

 

Edited to change "A and B" to "1 and 2", because each time I typed B followed by a bracket it printed as an emoticon wearing dark glasses. Odd,that.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Athy

[mayalld]

1) Because that's what it appears to be.

2) I rather think that it is.

 

Members have made their points ad infinitum, and sometimes ad nauseam, but will not let this matter lie and move on to something else.

Then again, I have made my point too, which is that my experience of Harral's was a good and positive one, so now I'll shut up and move on.

 

 

So, you had a good experience, and were lucky not to be caught out by his dodgy business practices.

 

That is hardly a reason to endorse or defend him.

 

So far as I can see, Mr Harral is trying to bury the bad news, so that even more people risk their money. It seems only fair to put the opposing view just as vigorously.

[carlt]

Then again, I have made my point too, which is that my experience of Harral's was a good and positive one, so now I'll shut up and move on.

 

Presumably if, halfway through your "experience" of Harral, he'd folded and you'd lost your money, it wouldn't have been so positive and you wouldn't be defending him now.

 

Surely your experience demonstrates your lucky timing, not his honesty and business acumen?

[Laurence Hogg]

What many of you will not know is that a company named "North Western Marine Factors" hit the wall in 1996. It was owned by Stephen Harral and a Peter Smith. As far as I know none of the creditors were ever paid any money. It was a company supplying to the trade and handled our brassware at the time.

[cotswoldsman]

The Harral-bashing continues unabated. I'm really quite startled that some of my forum colleagues are like terriers worrying a rabbit (sorry, Dennis) with regard to the man. I received the new issue of Waterways World yesterday; in it there is an interview with Stephen Harral in which he states that he does have a conscience and that he intends to ensure that people who are owed money do not lose out. Much as we may deplore the grammar of that last expression, can we not give him a fair chance to prove that he means what he says?

 

I admire your defence of Harral. I was told today by a boat broker that one of the people who had handed over money for a boat had sold their house to buy the boat, they are now homeless, if I knew them I would certainly love to send them your post and get a reaction.

I guess his statement about people not losing out will never be known but certainly the sort of thing you would need to say when starting a new business. The simple fact is company law in this country needs changing.

[DaveG]

There actually seems have been two companies running - Harral Brokerage Services Ltd (partners Anthony Stephen and Catherine Harral) established in 1996 and registered in Blackpool, dissolved 16/8/2011; and Harral Brokerage Services (Nantwich) Ltd , (partners Anthony Stephen Harral and Michael Edward Cope) established 2003 and registered at Wincham Wharf. Dissolved the same day as HBSL Ltd.

 

Cope didn't become a partner until 2006, is the sole owner of Swanley Marina and also a partner in a Welsh property management company, as well as owning a substantial dairy farm. This, I guess, is where it gets a little confusing - were boats for sale at at Wincham Wharf being sold through HBSL Ltd, or HBSL (Nantwich) Ltd...or a combination of the two?

 

If you look at HBSL Ltd's published accounts, they seem to have been in trouble since 2009 when current liabilities became double the value of current assets. The company seems to have been in steady decline since 2005. Whatever, this can't have come as a surprise to Harral.

 

What I don't understand is, whilst there is much debate about Mr Harrals probity as a company director (Eurocraft Marine Ltd, First Cheshire Boatbuilders Ltd, and Northwest Marine Factors (Norwester) Ltd are also past failures as well as the two failed Harral brokerages) nothing is being said about Mr Cope . He does appear to be operating a brokerage as part of his marina operation but they do state that "Swanley Bridge Marina are members of the British Marine Federation and we abide by their requirements to hold funds received from purchasers in a separate clients account for your financial protection." Whilst he may be 100% honest, he was a business partner of Harral's until August this year.

 

Perhaps, Athy, you can maybe understand people's frustration when large sums of money have been lost by individuals whilst those who were trusted to hold it are still trading. There have been four threads on here lately about dodgy business shenanigans by brokers, builders and marinas so why is it unreasonable to expect better standards from business?

[GBBS]

i seem to remember him being part of LADYLINE at barbridge in he 70's / early eighties and I beleive he went to prison for his part in that particular failure / fraud

[Janey]

We also had a positive experience at Harrals when buying our boat in 2009. It never entered our heads at the time that there could be any risk in our transaction, or that the people we were dealing with were anything but honest and reliable. Since then we have heard a lot of gossip about the business, and how later that it had hit the wall. On balance we were lucky. Naive and lucky. If ever we do decide to buy another boat we would be incredibly careful with whom we deal, secure our funds by safe banking systems and still cross our fingers and hope for the best.

 

I found this on-line yesterday:

 

"Cheshire based canal boat brokerage

 

Welcome to Ash Boats Ltd.

 

Formed in September 2011 and based at the new Tattenhall Marina in the heart of beautiful Cheshire Countryside, Ash Boats combines the expertise of Stephen Harral (over 30 years in Narrowboats) with the modern facilities of Tattenhall Marina to provide a high quality range of both narrow and wide beam boats.

 

Narrowboats are offered from berths at the Marina whilst wide beam boats are sold off their own moorings.

 

Boats are both offered for sale on brokerage (owners’ boats for sale on an agency basis) whilst some are bought by the Company to be sold on.

 

The office is open daily from 9.0am to 5.0pm and visitors are assured of a friendly welcome with sound professional advice on offer" hmmm.

[jelunga]

Oi. We never got a cuppa when we first visited you at yr old site in Rugby

However I do have some nice piccys of yr boat being craned out earlier thus year at Stowe Hill. PM me with yr email address and I shall try to send sone

 

Sorry for the delay in responding but I've only just clocked this post. The overhead is the cost of membership of the BMF, and the hassle of having to get a bank to confirm that the client account is genuinely protected. It is a requirement that all client funds are held in that account until completion of sale - deposits and proceeds of the sale. There is also the additional cost of Professional Indemnity Insurance. Not really a big deal (approx £1200 p.a), but the Code of Conduct for membership requires the broker to do their best to establish that a boat is indeed owned by the vendor, that the law is complied with (such as the RCD CE requirements where applicable is adhered to, that the vendor warrants that the craft is free of any debts that may be attached to it (marine mortgage being the most obvious one), and that we offer all our customers a cuppa when they pop over. Actually, this last bit is not true, but I do anyway In other words, a level of professional service is expected.

 

The first thing to look out for are the BMF and BRBA logos. If a broker doesn't display these prominently on their website and marketing material then they probably are not a member.

Edited October 16, 2011 by jelunga

[ditchcrawler]

Why should he be given a chance when his terms and conditions remain the same, no seperate account for customers money! I think that if you sold your boat but did not get paid you may have a different opinion

If my solicitor went bust with the money from the sale of my house in his account I wouldn't be to chuffed. Clients Accounts.

[Athy]

Welcome Janey, nice to hear from you again! I know that you had a positive experience there because I was there the same day as you, I remember talking to you about the (43 foot?) boat which you were buying.

Mike

[Just Heaven]

If my solicitor went bust with the money from the sale of my house in his account I wouldn't be to chuffed. Clients Accounts.

 

Our solicitor did exactly that. He went to jail. We did eventually get most of our money back from the Law Society, but it took seven years.

 

Steve