Harral Brokerage

[Rod a mod from Tod]

Bit late with this one - feel for the vendors with no boat or money, Ouch!

 

Stephen Harral told Boating Business he was devastated, and particularly sorry for two boat owners whose craft had been sold and the money not paid over to them. Some buyers had also paid deposits on the purchase of boats, but these were fairly small nominal amounts and he thought there was no reason why the purchases should not go ahead. He said the company had few trade creditors and there were assets to be sold which should cover some of the debts. Mr Harral also said considerable goodwill had been expressed to him from the waterway industry generally and he had already been offered sites to operate from and boats to sell.

 

Just read this last paragraph and got a cold shudder.

 

As i have mentioned in another thread out boat was probably one of the last to be sold by Harrals. We handed over the dosh some time late June/early July for which we received a receipt from Stephen Harral (receipt on boat hence vagueness of date). Stephen stated that when the previous owners signed a certain form, Transferance of Title Form i presume, that it would be sent to me, but, the boat was now ours.

 

Now we were out on the boat from end of July and as we had not received the Transference of Title form Harrals when we set off, but assumed it would be there on our return. So we thought no more about it.

 

While we are out and about i heard on the towpath telegraph that Harrals were about to go boobs skywards but thought it was just tittle tattle. A couple of days before we arrived home i found out for sure that Harrals had gone and we still were not sure if we had received the document. My backside spent the next 2 days in sixpence-half crown mode until we got home.

 

When we got home all letters were cast aside until we got to one which looked like it may have come from Harrals and thankfully it contained the document. Phew! Now!

 

Whose boat would it have been if the money had not got through to the previous owners before it all went wrong. We had a receipt showing we had paid for it but would the previous owners still have a claim to it. Hypothetical now, but what could have happened.

 

Considering what he must have known was about to happen its perhaps fair to mention that Stephen Harral gave me his word on something before this transaction went through and he kept to it, which is nice.

[Guest]

Whose boat would it have been if the money had not got through to the previous owners before it all went wrong. We had a receipt showing we had paid for it but would the previous owners still have a claim to it. Hypothetical now, but what could have happened.

 

My understanding is that these type of deeds/titles do not have the same legal status as those associated with property (Don't forget many a boat won't have any such thing) so based on the exchange of dosh with a receipt my take is you would have the legal right to the boat.

 

BUT I'm happy to be corrected by somebody who knows better.......

[cotswoldsman]

Bit late with this one - feel for the vendors with no boat or money, Ouch!

 

 

 

Stephen Harral told Boating Business he was devastated, and particularly sorry for two boat owners whose craft had been sold and the money not paid over to them. Some buyers had also paid deposits on the purchase of boats, but these were fairly small nominal amounts and he thought there was no reason why the purchases should not go ahead. He said the company had few trade creditors and there were assets to be sold which should cover some of the debts. Mr Harral also said considerable goodwill had been expressed to him from the waterway industry generally and he had already been offered sites to operate from and boats to sell.

 

Here we go again........another waterways company goes down the tube and will re appear under another guise!!! Wonder who the goodwill came from? Doubt if it was the owners or buyers of the boats where the money had changed hands but has magically been used by Harral's to reduce debt.

The lesson here for anyone buying a boat is to ensure any deposits or monies paid go into a certified protected account or even better use a solicitor (ok extra costs) and that no money is paid to the broker but that monies go from buyer directly to seller and broker can submit an invoice to solicitor for commission that has to be approved by the seller.

I hope no one gives a boat to Stephen Harral to sell until such time as creditors have been paid especially those caught with no money on boats sold/purchased.

Edited September 12, 2011 by cotswoldsman

[boots]

Am totally ignorant of the legal situation in these matters, but I am surprised by the the last paragraph: "and particularly sorry for two boat owners whose craft had been sold and the money not paid over to them"

 

- I thought a Broker acted as an agent for the sale, and did not actually take ownership of a boat - similarly, when the purchaser handed over the money, this was 'held on behalf of the seller' and again not the property of the Broker - in which case, shouldn't the money still be due to the sellers, and not part of the assets of Harral? Unless, I suppose, the money had already been spent - but if it wasn't Harrals to spend - wouldn't that be illegal?

[Guest]

Am totally ignorant of the legal situation in these matters, but I am surprised by the the last paragraph: "and particularly sorry for two boat owners whose craft had been sold and the money not paid over to them"

 

- I thought a Broker acted as an agent for the sale, and did not actually take ownership of a boat - similarly, when the purchaser handed over the money, this was 'held on behalf of the seller' and again not the property of the Broker - in which case, shouldn't the money still be due to the sellers, and not part of the assets of Harral? Unless, I suppose, the money had already been spent - but if it wasn't Harrals to spend - wouldn't that be illegal?

 

That is how it is supposed to work - the money would normally be in a separate clients account 'protected' from such an event. For whatever reason (one can only speculate as to why) this does not appear to be the case in this instance. Either that or perhaps creditors are allowed to access the money so held after all.

 

One of our brokerage contingent will no doubt pop up shortly.

 

....a real bummer for those who have lost money, and they will be a a tidy sum they have lost too....

[cotswoldsman]

Am totally ignorant of the legal situation in these matters, but I am surprised by the the last paragraph: "and particularly sorry for two boat owners whose craft had been sold and the money not paid over to them"

 

- I thought a Broker acted as an agent for the sale, and did not actually take ownership of a boat - similarly, when the purchaser handed over the money, this was 'held on behalf of the seller' and again not the property of the Broker - in which case, shouldn't the money still be due to the sellers, and not part of the assets of Harral? Unless, I suppose, the money had already been spent - but if it wasn't Harrals to spend - wouldn't that be illegal?

 

A very grey area, unless Harral actually issued a receipt stating that the money would be paid into a ring fenced account the broker can do what they want with the money until such time as it is paid to the seller. Would you hand over the purchase money for a house to the Estate Agent? If the answer is no, then why would anyone hand over the money for the purchase of a boat to a broker?

[Guest]

A very grey area, unless Harral actually issued a receipt stating that the money would be paid into a ring fenced account the broker can do what they want with the money until such time as it is paid to the seller. Would you hand over the purchase money for a house to the Estate Agent? If the answer is no, then why would anyone hand over the money for the purchase of a boat to a broker?

 

The relationship between a boat broker though is different though similar, no solicitor is involved for example as normally happens in a house sale they normally over see the financial transfer side of things ,

 

in a boat sale both buyer and seller are hugely dependant on the integrity and financial acumen of the broker.

[cotswoldsman]

The relationship between a boat broker though is different though similar, no solicitor is involved for example as normally happens in a house sale they normally over see the financial transfer side of things ,

 

in a boat sale both buyer and seller are hugely dependant on the integrity and financial acumen of the broker.

 

That was my point about using a solicitor I did when I bought my boat going from memory they charged me about £150

[journeyperson]

A very grey area, unless Harral actually issued a receipt stating that the money would be paid into a ring fenced account the broker can do what they want with the money until such time as it is paid to the seller. Would you hand over the purchase money for a house to the Estate Agent? If the answer is no, then why would anyone hand over the money for the purchase of a boat to a broker?

 

Gulp!! Well Stephen was such a pleasant gentleman.

 

My impression when I bought from him in 2008 was that they were very helpful but quite disorganised and hadn't moved into 21st century with their customer service. The economic downturn hadn't taken effect at that time either.

[Rod a mod from Tod]

I suppose anyone buying their first boat,as we were, tends to go along with what the broker says to a certain extent. Having spoken with another broker about the buy process on an offer we had made on another boat Harrals seemed to be following the same route. Should i ever buy another boat i may proceed with more caution. Although everything worked out ok for us the more i think about it the more we acted out of character with our money on this occasion.

 

We have a saying round here of "beer in, brains out" when someone does something daft under the influence. Perhaps beer should be substituted with boat in some cases.

 

Would it not be better if the buyer was to pay the broker out of the accepted offer on the the boat and then make a cheque for the remainder to the seller. Don't think its a big secret what they charge.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Rod a mod from Tod

[Guest]

That was my point about using a solicitor I did when I bought my boat going from memory they charged me about £150

 

Did you buy through a broker - I think that is pretty unusual for anybody that does, perhaps more common if buying from a builder

[cotswoldsman]

Did you buy through a broker - I think that is pretty unusual for anybody that does, perhaps more common if buying from a builder

 

New Boat Company. The deposit I paid by credit card so had protection from card company.

What I am trying to say is in view of Harral's maybe using a solicitor should become common practice. If I was buying from a broker who all he needs to set a business is a phone and computer I certainly would not hand over large sums of money.

 

having said all that my main rant is that Harral is already talking about setting up again as a broker..............

[Midnight Rider]

Solicitors have 'Clients Accounts' which are supposed to be safe.

 

There have been quite a few cases of the buggers running off with the funds though.

 

Nothing is foolproof.

[cotswoldsman]

Solicitors have 'Clients Accounts' which are supposed to be safe.

 

There have been quite a few cases of the buggers running off with the funds though.

 

Nothing is foolproof.

 

Yes that happened to a friend but in the case of solicitors you are compensated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority or The Law Society can not remember which one and can not be bothered to google it.

[Athy]

I went to view a boat at Harral's a couple of years ago and was very impressed by their customer service. They even picked me up by car from the station and returned me there after i had concluded my business with them.

[cotswoldsman]

I went to view a boat at Harral's a couple of years ago and was very impressed by their customer service. They even picked me up by car from the station and returned me there after i had concluded my business with them.

 

Not sure that people who have lost money will be very comforted by that. I am told that RBS gave very good customer service does not comfort me much as a tax payer.

[kienik]

it seems as tho Harrals are setting up again at a local marina close to where my boat is moored, on the grapevine i hear that Harrals have secured 12 berths at this marina to broker boats from.

 

i do not know if this is 100% true but a few tongues have been wagging regarding this, it could be complete codswallop, and i will not be held responsible if this is untrue,

 

watch this space

 

Nik

[Dalesman]

When we bought our boat through ABNB we paid our deposit to their client account but the balance was paid direct to the seller via a bank transfer ( CHAPS)from our bank. After the bank transfer we received a Bill of Sale from ANNB signed by the seller, all went very quick an easy, and yes we did have a survey carried out too.

[mayalld]

When we bought our boat through ABNB we paid our deposit to their client account but the balance was paid direct to the seller via a bank transfer ( CHAPS)from our bank. After the bank transfer we received a Bill of Sale from ANNB signed by the seller, all went very quick an easy, and yes we did have a survey carried out too.

 

The question that has to be asked is "was the client account truly a client account, or was it simply a secong bank account they passed client funds through?"

 

Unless set up with the bank as a client account, and demonstrably always used as such, a liquidator may get his hands on it.

[David Mack]

If the buyer has paid the money to the broker, but the broker has not passed it on to the seller at the point when he goes bust, who does the boat belong to? The seller, the buyer, or the liquidator?

 

If someone resells stolen goods then they still belong to the original owner, who can claim them back from the buyer (who can be left out of pocket). But is it the same if the seller has signed an agreement with the broker?

 

David

[mayalld]

If the buyer has paid the money to the broker, but the broker has not passed it on to the seller at the point when he goes bust, who does the boat belong to? The seller, the buyer, or the liquidator?

 

If someone resells stolen goods then they still belong to the original owner, who can claim them back from the buyer (who can be left out of pocket). But is it the same if the seller has signed an agreement with the broker?

 

David

 

They probably belong to the buyer.

 

He has paid the broker, who acts as the sellers agent, so he should have good title.

[Guest]

They probably belong to the buyer.

 

He has paid the broker, who acts as the sellers agent, so he should have good title.

 

probably??

 

should??

 

a shady world it is indeed.. this brokering boats thing..

[mayalld]

probably??

 

should??

 

a shady world it is indeed.. this brokering boats thing..

 

Much will depend upon the terms of business, and indeed upon whether anything was signed, or how many things were signed.

 

I know a thing or two about the law, and rarely see a need to bother solicitors personally, but who owns what here is not 100% clear without a lot more information and it isn't a job for the skilled amateur.

[Josher]

Would using an ESCROW account solve the problem?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XDRumXXYU&feature=player_detailpage

Edited September 15, 2011 by Josher