Composting toilets

[jonk]

There was recently a thread on the merits of these, but not many owners posted. If you actually have one on board and have used it for over a year could you give your likes/dislikes to help in making a sensible decision? I have noticed from a Google search that there are in fact a lot of narrowboats fitted with various types of composting loos so there must be many of you on the forums with these!

I have used boats with cassettes and with a pump-out but I have never experienced a composting loo so I would really like to know the pros and cons.

Thanks,

 

John

[mrsmelly]

There was recently a thread on the merits of these, but not many owners posted. If you actually have one on board and have used it for over a year could you give your likes/dislikes to help in making a sensible decision? I have noticed from a Google search that there are in fact a lot of narrowboats fitted with various types of composting loos so there must be many of you on the forums with these!

I have used boats with cassettes and with a pump-out but I have never experienced a composting loo so I would really like to know the pros and cons.

Thanks,

 

John

 

You wont get any replies on this one John............no one suffers them for a whole year, they realise the error of their ways and rip em out and bin em.........

[johnmck]

You wont get any replies on this one John............no one suffers them for a whole year, they realise the error of their ways and rip em out and bin em.........

 

 

Cassette !

Coat.....

[BelgiumBrit]

I worked on a 'project' in Southern Spain where they had Vietnamese compost toilets. Fill them up , leave a little vegetation on your offering, close the lid. When full , seal it off and leave for a year , then you have organic matter that may be used as fertiliser. Of course, the compost toilets were well away from accomodation , as they did pong. I really can not see any way at all that this could be effectively used on a boat, even though it may sound appealing ! You will get problems with odour , insects and vermin in my opinion, best to avoid.

Edited July 9, 2011 by BelgiumBrit

[Ex- Member]

There was recently a thread on the merits of these, but not many owners posted. If you actually have one on board and have used it for over a year could you give your likes/dislikes to help in making a sensible decision? I have noticed from a Google search that there are in fact a lot of narrowboats fitted with various types of composting loos so there must be many of you on the forums with these!

I have used boats with cassettes and with a pump-out but I have never experienced a composting loo so I would really like to know the pros and cons.

Thanks,

 

John

 

Hi John

 

We've had on for about 5 years It a sun-mar model self contained unit. I wouldn't have anything else although not to many peoples taste.

 

The model we have is supposed to handle 2 to 3 persons, we are just 2 you and it's been fine except for on occasional heavy use, urine might need to be emptied that will overflow into a sealed tube which can be detached from the unit and emptied into an Elsan.

 

This does not happen that often though, I fitted a larger container to cope with any overflow as the tube supplied wasn't really enough. We empty the main bulk about every 4 months for heavy use like on board for 4 weeks in a row the operation of which is not as bad as many would think and empty 6 monthly if we only do weekends for a long period. If it's composted well there's no smell you can simply dispose of it in the bin or we usually discard it on parts of the river bank no one can access just in case it's not fully composted.

 

You can buy an electric version which is electrically heated and has a 12 volt fan extractor, this model will cater for more people but if used for 2 people the urine overflow would hardly ever need to be emptied unless you had a wild party LOL The heater evaporates the urine and the fan speeds this operation up. With hindsight I wish I got the electric as you can turn the heat on and off if required to save energy. I fitted my own 12 volt fan in the chimney to aid evaporation.

 

The particular unit we have is quite a lot higher than a standard toilet, you'll see in their photos a small stool fitted for kids. The Envirolet model is standard height but very wide and deep. There are quite a few different models available now as well.

 

If fitted properly and composting properly they don't smell in fact they smell less than a conventional toilet as they continuously draw air through the chimney so when you follow someone into the loo there's no left over smell from their waste. However you can get occasional blow back on windy days and when opening the lid might get a waft of pretty bad smell.

 

Like everything on a boat there's pro's & con's

 

Con's

 

Sometimes might have to empty urine overflow.

 

You do need to fit a chimney and you might need to adapt a little depending on what model you choose.

 

Each time you use the toilet for solid waste you need to throw in a good handful of dry softwood sawdust, this helps aerate the waste for quicker composting, you can also add additional peat moss. We use a 3kg compacted bag of pet sawdust from TESCO around 3 quid, lasts about 6 months.

 

At least once a week you need to turn the compost, this is done by extracting a winding handle and turning 7 times clockwise.

 

To Empty you do the opposite, the waste falls in to a large tray in the bottom of the unit and is left there until dry ready for emptying.

 

Pro's

 

No need for holding tanks

 

No visiting elsans to pump out, or traipsing up the cut with sewage sloshing around in Porto Potty in the depths of winter LOL

 

No pump out fees

 

Doesn't use water'

 

Only needs emptying 4 to 6 monthly, even less for occasional use.

 

Always a warm seat if you use the electric version.

 

If you're not afraid of your own waste it's the perfect solution for a boat

 

 

 

Our Sun-Mar

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.sun-mar.com/prod_self.html

 

 

 

I worked on a 'project' in Southern Spain where they had Vietnamese compost toilets. Fill them up , leave a little vegetation on your offering, close the lid. When full , seal it off and leave for a year , then you have organic matter that may be used as fertiliser. Of course, the compost toilets were well away from accomodation , as they did pong. I really can not see any way at all that this could be effectively used on a boat, even though it may sound appealing ! You will get problems with odour , insects and vermin in my opinion, best to avoid.

 

 

You clearly know little about composting toilets, that's not the case at all.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

Hi John

 

We've had on for about 5 years It a sun-mar model self contained unit. I wouldn't have anything else although not to many peoples taste.

 

The model we have is supposed to handle 2 to 3 persons, we are just 2 you and it's been fine except for on occasional heavy use, urine might need to be emptied that will overflow into a sealed tube which can be detached from the unit and emptied into an Elsan.

 

This does not happen that often though, I fitted a larger container to cope with any overflow as the tube supplied wasn't really enough. We empty the main bulk about every 4 months for heavy use like on board for 4 weeks in a row the operation of which is not as bad as many would think and empty 6 monthly if we only do weekends for a long period. If it's composted well there's no smell you can simply dispose of it in the bin or we usually discard it on parts of the river bank no one can access just in case it's not fully composted.

 

You can buy an electric version which is electrically heated and has a 12 volt fan extractor, this model will cater for more people but if used for 2 people the urine overflow would hardly ever need to be emptied unless you had a wild party LOL The heater evaporates the urine and the fan speeds this operation up. With hindsight I wish I got the electric as you can turn the heat on and off if required to save energy. I fitted my own 12 volt fan in the chimney to aid evaporation.

 

The particular unit we have is quite a lot higher than a standard toilet, you'll see in their photos a small stool fitted for kids. The Envirolet model is standard height but very wide and deep. There are quite a few different models available now as well.

 

If fitted properly and composting properly they don't smell in fact they smell less than a conventional toilet as they continuously draw air through the chimney so when you follow someone into the loo there's no left over smell from their waste. However you can get occasional blow back on windy days and when opening the lid might get a waft of pretty bad smell.

 

Like everything on a boat there's pro's & con's

 

Con's

 

Sometimes might have to empty urine overflow.

 

You do need to fit a chimney and you might need to adapt a little depending on what model you choose.

 

Each time you use the toilet for solid waste you need to throw in a good handful of dry softwood sawdust, this helps aerate the waste for quicker composting, you can also add additional peat moss. We use a 3kg compacted bag of pet sawdust from TESCO around 3 quid, lasts about 6 months.

 

At least once a week you need to turn the compost, this is done by extracting a winding handle and turning 7 times clockwise.

 

To Empty you do the opposite, the waste falls in to a large tray in the bottom of the unit and is left there until dry ready for emptying.

 

Pro's

 

No need for holding tanks

 

No visiting elsans to pump out, or traipsing up the cut with sewage sloshing around in Porto Potty in the depths of winter LOL

 

No pump out fees

 

Doesn't use water'

 

Only needs emptying 4 to 6 monthly, even less for occasional use.

 

Always a warm seat if you use the electric version.

 

If you're not afraid of your own waste it's the perfect solution for a boat

 

 

 

Our Sun-Mar

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.sun-mar.com/prod_self.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

You clearly know little about composting toilets, that's not the case at all.

 

 

So to sum all that up " Completely useless on a liveaboard boat.

[Ex- Member]

So to sum all that up " Completely useless on a liveaboard boat.

 

We've been live aboard LOL how many times have you emptied that Porto Potty this week then Smelly LOL

 

 

 

[canalowl]

Hi John

 

I have an Envirolet self-contained model with fan and electric heater, installed about 4 years ago. It worked well when I was living aboard (alone much of the time) but not so good when only using occasionally. Currently I am working abroad and friends and relations use the boat and to be honest they don’t like it at all. I have no power hook up and live on solar plus generator.

 

Pro’s

 

Easy to empty with no need to find emptying facilities – great in the middle of winter

 

Con’s

 

Uses a lot of electricity – can only use the heater when cruising but fan can be used 24/7

 

Can’t handle lots of people – I have a portaloo to use for parties and beer weekends. It’s the urine that causes the problem, most probably would be better if hooked up to a landline and then the heater could be on all the time.

 

It’s really very big and uses up a lot of space.

 

Conclusion

 

If doing this again I would look at the models that separate the urine, this would make management simpler. Although it works well when managed circumstances change and it’s not everyone’s cup of tea so a cassette would most probably be the safer option. On balance I think I would go for a cassette unless I was very sure about its long-term usage.

[mrsmelly]

We've been live aboard LOL how many times have you emptied that Porto Potty this week then Smelly LOL

 

Ahh not the old " Weve been liveaboard " chestnut. Yes loads of people do the odd year or so but when you have done many years full time summer and winter you know what things are realy like and the trouble is some people will not admit that a system they bought is no good.

THEY WILL NOT COPE with even only 2 people properly living aboard, simple as that. I empty my cassette as and when needed, its simple, very quick, can be done in more locations than you can shake a stick at and very very very very very low maintenance.

Ask any chandlers how many portabog/cassette systems he sells to narrowboaters every week and how many composting bogs ? there is a reason and its very simple to work out.

[Ex- Member]

Ahh not the old " Weve been liveaboard " chestnut. Yes loads of people do the odd year or so but when you have done many years full time summer and winter you know what things are realy like and the trouble is some people will not admit that a system they bought is no good.

THEY WILL NOT COPE with even only 2 people properly living aboard, simple as that. I empty my cassette as and when needed, its simple, very quick, can be done in more locations than you can shake a stick at and very very very very very low maintenance.

Ask any chandlers how many portabog/cassette systems he sells to narrowboaters every week and how many composting bogs ? there is a reason and its very simple to work out.

 

 

 

Well composting toilets don't sell as the majority of people dismiss them outright due to lack of knowledge.

 

The toilet works fine for us being just 2, I did state that in my post. The shortest time I've had to empty was 4 Months and that was when we were live aboard for 2 months and at that time my brother was using it as well as he had no loo in his boat. We don't fully live aboard currently but average 3 days a week and my brother and dad use it regularily when on site.

 

I've just checked the last time I emptied the loo And amazingly it was Feb 2010 so it's gone 17 months without emptying, it could do with an empty now though as the main drum has reached just over half full. I've also checked how long we've had the loo and it's actually 7 years it was fitted in late 2004. I can only recall having to empty excess urine on a few occasions 5 / 6 times maybe over the 7 years.

 

I certainly wouldn't recommend our model for more than 2 persons, might cope with 2 adults and child. Of course we're wide beam too, so the size of the toilet is not an issue. When we're full time live aboard next year I'm 100% confident that it will cope based on how it's performed thus far. Even if emptying times have to be increased to 3 months it's still a damned site less frequent than pump out or cassette and no cost.

 

Slag them off all you like, but I was honest as to their performance giving the genuine pro's and con's,

 

I empty my cassette as and when needed, its simple, very quick, can be done in more locations than you can shake a stick at and very very very very very low maintenance.

 

 

Having to remove a tub of Sh1te from a boat by hand regularly is hardly low maintenance.

If you're disposing of the waste properly you must need to moor near Elsan to make emptying in the slightest way efficient and still require walking the tow path with said Sh1te in hand.

And I certainly wouldn't want to be snowed in with one in winter.

 

THEY WILL NOT COPE with even only 2 people properly living aboard, simple as that.

 

If you want to make such sweeping statements about a product, then at least back them up with some facts rather than peurile waffle.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Julynian

[mrsmelly]

 

 

 

 

If you want to make such sweeping statements about a product, then at least back them up with some facts rather than peurile waffle.

 

 

I have lived aboard for many years from 1989 onwards. I have many liveaboard friends who have done it for much longer. My statement is borne out of our combined many years of experience, not some newbies idea that they have re invented the wheel. Composting bogs have been around for all of this time and slowly developed but still are not a viable substitute for long term high volume use if they were they would quite simply be in lots of boats and quite simply they are not.

[Ex- Member]

I have lived aboard for many years from 1989 onwards. I have many liveaboard friends who have done it for much longer. My statement is borne out of our combined many years of experience, not some newbies idea that they have re invented the wheel. Composting bogs have been around for all of this time and slowly developed but still are not a viable substitute for long term high volume use if they were they would quite simply be in lots of boats and quite simply they are not.

 

high volume

 

 

Exactly as I stated, it works for 2 or our particular model compost toilet does anyway.

 

THEY WILL NOT COPE with even only 2 people properly living aboard, simple as that.

 

Is an inaccurate statement. and not all compost toilets are the same.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Julynian

[mrsmelly]

 

 

Exactly as I stated, it works for 2 or our particular model compost toilet does anyway.

 

 

Is an inaccurate statement. and not all compost toilets are the same.

 

Ok I give in, there is a large lump appearing on my head from keeping banging it on the wall !! Let us know how you feel in 10 years time if you havnt ripped it out by then..

[Ex- Member]

Ok I give in, there is a large lump appearing on my head from keeping banging it on the wall !! Let us know how you feel in 10 years time if you havnt ripped it out by then..

 

I will keep all informed on it's progress LOL Might take photos when I next empty LOL

 

 

 

[Yellowback]

Couple of quick stupid questions.

 

How long does the crap take to compost?

 

Going by your quoted usage the storage bin will need emptying give or take every fifty days when liveaboard.

 

I Was always under the impression, gained from who knows where, or when, that compost toilet storage bins needed to be stored when full to compost fully before emptying.

 

Without the storage surely it would be only partially composted, especially with the small capacity you quote, a bit like dumping a cassette or self pump out in the hedge?

[Ex- Member]

How long does the crap take to compost?

 

Composting takes between 3 and 6 months. In the winter though if the boat is unattended composting slows down a lot, probably a minimum 6 months. As long as the toilet is in generally warm conditions then 3 months, this can be speeded up further if a heater is fitted to the unit.

 

 

 

Going by your quoted usage the storage bin will need emptying give or take every fifty days when liveaboard

.

 

You have to bear in mind that 80% of solid human waste is water, as this dries out the mass decreases like dog poo left on the pavement in the dry it will end up 80% less in mass, and taking into consideration that when composting it's being eaten by millions of microbes as well. I would expect to empty about every 3 months though when full time liv aboard, also when live aboard the composting unit will remain at a steady warm temperature which again aide speedier composting.

 

I Was always under the impression, gained from who knows where, or when, that compost toilet storage bins needed to be stored when full to compost fully before emptying.

 

The modern composting toilet has separate sections. A large main drum that human waste falls into, when you use it you also add sawdust, composting begins immediately it's a natural process and is kicked off by adding microbes in liquid form. After about 3 to 4 months use it becomes quite full. Under the drum is a large plastic tray about 2 f.t long and 15 inches wide, this is called a finishing tray.

 

When the main drum reaches just over half full, you release a built in handle and turn the drum anticlockwise, some clever mechanics inside then dump about half the compost in the big drum into the finishing tray. Your main drum is now only a quarter full and can continue to be used as usual. Ideally you should leave the waste in the finishing tray for at least 6 weeks until it's ready to empty. I leave it longer if I can. By this time the waste you empty is compost, it doesn't smell, and can be disposed of. When you return the tray in the bottom of the loo you then refill it again from the main drum. and repeat the process, if it's being used full time then you'll probably have to empty it next in another 3 months, light use and it can be 6 months sometimes more, I've just realised i last empties 17 months ago but we weren't on the boat at all for around 6 months so in that time the waste would have decreased in volume by about 80% virtually drying out.

 

 

Without the storage surely it would be only partially composted, especially with the small capacity you quote, a bit like dumping a cassette or self pump out in the hedge?

 

Explained above. But if I feel it isn't composted I could take it to an Elsan or dispose of in refuge waste.

 

The biggest problem with compost loo's is urine. The very bottom of the unit is sectioned into 2 base sections, front section for the finishing tray and back section for urine. The urine soaks into a shallow tray with absorbant Pyramids about 2 inches high, some urine is absorbed by the compost and dries out using the 4 inch chimney with booster fan fitted, the urine in the bottom tray then evaporates from the pyramids as like a puddle would with a constant flow of air pulled across it. If it's heavily used An overspill outlet is set 2 inches above floor level, any urine reaching this level will then flow into a container which I have under the floor, and is fed from the rear of the unit, there's some clear plastic pipe at the back of the unit so you can see if the urine overflows. You then check your container when it's full you can disconnect put a screw top on it it and dispose at an elsan I have a back up container to replace it so I don't need to rush to an Elsan just empty when passing. However we've been fortunate that this hardly occurs and only did when basically 4 people were using it over a period of time.

 

there are several different types of compo loo's some where the solid waste is composted but urine is separated and emptied regularly.

 

To get over the urine hassle I would advise using the heated version of ours but you have to power this with a 240 volt supply, the amperage is on the website. I might retro fit a heater yet if urine does overflow regularily.

 

 

 

[jonk]

Thank you Julynian and Canalowl, it is good to hear from people who have actually used them for a period rather than poo-pooing from afar

With their continued development and their increasing popularity (judging by the number of boats being sold with them installed and Whilton advertising their own systems) I suspect that they will be competing with the old-fashioned present systems in the near future!

 

I would summarise the present situation as:

Pump-out = can be costly to run and it can be inconvenient finding a station, some don't last much longer than a cassette before needing emptying (use a lot of water), but for 2 persons it can be a much nicer solution than a cassette. They look and act like a REAL loo.

Cassette = cheaper to run but inconvenient as it needs emptying so often. Cheaper and older versions don't look and feel like a REAL loo. Good as a back-up.

Composting = still a work in progress but if the correct version is chosen and it is dealt with properly it can be very convenient with little work involved, the ones separating urine would seem the better option. They don't look good and are on the large side generally speaking.

 

Others will think of other real and perceived pros and cons, I'm sure, but it seems to me that at present it is a matter of personal preference with no system significantly better than the others.

Having used a pump-out and a cassette while on board for a month, personally I would opt for a pump-out with a LARGE holding tank with a cassette stowed away for emergencies. However I am open to being convinced by the composter and would like to try one for an extended period, unfortunately that would be expensive! My narrowboat has a Vetus macerator toilet with a 215l holding tank, it needs a tank twice that size to be reasonable, I think.

 

 

John

Edited July 10, 2011 by jonk

[Ex- Member]

Thank you Julynian and Canalowl, it is good to hear from people who have actually used them for a period rather than poo-pooing from afar

With their continued development and their increasing popularity (judging by the number of boats being sold with them installed and Whilton advertising their own systems) I suspect that they will be competing with the old-fashioned present systems in the near future!

 

I would summarise the present situation as:

Pump-out = can be costly to run and it can be inconvenient finding a station, some don't last much longer than a cassette before needing emptying (use a lot of water), but for 2 persons it can be a much nicer solution than a cassette. They look and act like a REAL loo.

Cassette = cheaper to run but inconvenient as it needs emptying so often. Cheaper and older versions don't look and feel like a REAL loo. Good as a back-up.

Composting = still a work in progress but if the correct version is chosen and it is dealt with properly it can be very convenient with little work involved, the ones separating urine would seem the better option. They don't look good and are on the large side generally speaking.

 

Others will think of other real and perceived pros and cons, I'm sure, but it seems to me that at present it is a matter of personal preference with no system significantly better than the others.

Having used a pump-out and a cassette while on board for a month, personally I would opt for a pump-out with a LARGE holding tank with a cassette stowed away for emergencies. However I am open to being convinced by the composter and would like to try one for an extended period, unfortunately that would be expensive! My narrowboat has a Vetus macerator toilet with a 215l holding tank, it needs a tank twice that size to be reasonable, I think.

 

 

John

 

That's a pretty fair summery John. They are a bit big for a narrowboat especially if trying to fit into a second hand boat where as from new the space required can be planned and catered for.

 

On the whole Lynn and me love it, but i've recently realised the Sun-mar does have quite a small toilet seat in circumference and I'm now a bit overweight and it's not as comfy as it was, but I will lose the weight again hopefully LOL

 

It's worth checking out new products though as I looked in to compo loos 7 years ago so I would imagine some advances in techno would have been made.

 

 

 

[blackrose]

I have lived aboard for many years from 1989 onwards. I have many liveaboard friends who have done it for much longer. My statement is borne out of our combined many years of experience, not some newbies idea that they have re invented the wheel. Composting bogs have been around for all of this time and slowly developed but still are not a viable substitute for long term high volume use if they were they would quite simply be in lots of boats and quite simply they are not.

 

I wouldn't want a composting toilet myself but I don't see how you can argue with Julynian on this. If he likes his composting toilet and it suits him then that's that. You can say that you think cassettes are more practical (and I would agree), but I don't understand how you can tell him he doesn't like his composting toilet and he's just saying he does because he owns one? Anyone can say that about any peice of equipment. Perhaps we just like cassette toilets because we have them? If he's lived with it for a couple of years then he must know whether it suits him by now - nobody needs 10 years to find that out.

 

I'm sure one day there will be a better solution than the cassette (don't say pump out anyone! ) - at the moment as far as I'm concerned composting hasn't got there yet, but I'm sure things will improve and yes the wheel will be reinvented! After all, there was a time before cassettes and I wonder when they were conceived whether there were some who said it was a useless reinvention of the bucket?

Edited July 10, 2011 by blackrose

[Yellowback]

snip

 

Thanks for answers to my concerns.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Pump-out = can be costly to run and it can be inconvenient finding a station, some don't last much longer than a cassette before needing emptying (use a lot of water), but for 2 persons it can be a much nicer solution than a cassette. They look and act like a REAL loo.

 

<snip>

John

 

Ours costs us about £60-£75 per year. Stations are very common, and you don't have to find them very often, so a little planning makes this problem non-existent

 

Richard

[Guest]

Ours costs us about £60-£75 per year. Stations are very common, and you don't have to find them very often, so a little planning makes this problem non-existent

 

Richard

 

Out of interest Richard - I know TO has 2 PO loos - do they share the same tank or do they have separate tanks and have to be pumped out separately.

 

We once hired a boat with 2 loos but I'm sure they shared the same tank..

[jonk]

Ours costs us about £60-£75 per year. Stations are very common, and you don't have to find them very often, so a little planning makes this problem non-existent

 

Richard

 

That would be great but it has not been my experience. Perhaps it is just my system (Vetus macerator) that needs emptying so often and hence causes problems finding a convenient station?

From what you say you pump-out about once every 2 months? I can't see how that is possible unless you have a very large tank!

Lets try a little, rough, calculation: each flush has a volume of 4l of water/solids/urine, the tank is 200l in size, this equates to 50 flushes. So if the loo is used 5 times a day for each of two people that is 10 flushes per day = 5 days. In practice, being older people perhaps, we use it more times than that

What is your holding tank capacity?

 

 

 

John

[mickspangle]

I lived with an Envirolet for 18 months before chucking it in the bins at Shepperton lock. I won't bore you with the lead up to that, but If the OP is going to go down the route of a composting toilet, the two main things I would suggest are:

 

1. get one with a urine seperator - we were sold a line by the bloke in the chandlery who said we would not need a liquid drain. with 2 people living aboard full time we found that we just could not evaporate the urine quick enough. draining 5 litres a week of dark brown ammoniacal liquid used to stink the boat out, and ultimately I felt cassettes were probably less hassle.

 

2. do not expect it to be 'fit and forget'. there will be a certain amount of fettling required to keep it working properly (addding peat, keeping it aerated, keeping it dry, keeping it moist etc etc). it will become a friend and you will tend to it regularly, a bit like an allotment.

 

FWIW I went back to cassettes.

[Robbo]

Lets try a little, rough, calculation: each flush has a volume of 4l of water/solids/urine, the tank is 200l in size, this equates to 50 flushes. So if the loo is used 5 times a day for each of two people that is 10 flushes per day = 5 days. In practice, being older people perhaps, we use it more times than that

What is your holding tank capacity?

 

200l is a very small pump out tank, mine is around 400l...