JP2 injector pump

[RLWP]

2 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

Thanks for all the advice.

 

We have just removed 450ml of diesel/oil mix and replaced it with clean engine oil up to the mark on the dipstick.  Fuel tap is now turned off.

 

It will be checked regularly from now on and removed/replaced as needed.  It was a case of "you don't know what you don't know".

 

It does show the merits of checking drips and leaks, that's how this got noticed.  Diesel was dripping past the dipstick when the engine was running.

Yes, that's what happens

[MoominPapa]

 

24 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

Fuel tap is now turned off.

Just be aware that turning the fuel tap off removes the atmospheric vent to the fuel system. If you do this whilst the engine is hot, as it cools the diesel trapped inside will contract and the pressure will fall, which has the potential to pull air bubbles into the system through any tiny leaks or weak spots (like the ones where diesel is leaking out into your pump oil). If you now start needing to bleed the fuel system regularly, that'll be why.

MP.

Edited July 28, 2019 by MoominPapa
Echo

[GRLMK38]

1 minute ago, MoominPapa said:

Just be aware that turning the fuel tap off removes the atmospheric vent to the fuel system. If you do this whilst the engine is hot, as it cools the diesel trapped inside will contract and the pressure will go fall,  which has the potential to pull air bubbles into the system through any tiny leaks or weak spots (like the ones where diesel is leaking out into your pump oil). If you now start needing to bleed the fuel system regularly, that'll be why.

 

MP.

 

Good point, I'll mention it.  Given the simplicity of extraction and refilling it's probably best to avoid all the faff of having to bleed the fuel lines.

[frangar]

6 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

 

Just be aware that turning the fuel tap off removes the atmospheric vent to the fuel system. If you do this whilst the engine is hot, as it cools the diesel trapped inside will contract and the pressure will fall, which has the potential to pull air bubbles into the system through any tiny leaks or weak spots (like the ones where diesel is leaking out into your pump oil). If you now start needing to bleed the fuel system regularly, that'll be why.

MP.

Agreed! I only turn the fuel off when I’m not using the boat for a few days or longer..I also let everything cool down before turning the day tank off. 

[gbclive]

1 hour ago, GRLMK38 said:

We have just removed 450ml of diesel/oil mix and replaced it with clean engine oil up to the mark on the dipstick.  Fuel tap is now turned off.

This might be not be relevant, but I have a version of the CAV BPE2B pump fitted to our 1948 Kelvin J2

The capacity of the oil sump is just a tad over 25ml, measured with a medical syringe during regular replacement - probably every 50H or so when the dipstick indicates higher than max due to dilution by fuel.

Obviously a 3 cylinder pump could have a higher capacity, but even so, nearly half a litre seems very high by comparison, even with a lot of dilution.

Perhaps yours is not a CAV BPE pump as quoted by the OP?

Or maybe the installation in a Lister is radically different?

The most likely explanation is that in my case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?

[GRLMK38]

1 minute ago, gbclive said:

This might be not be relevant, but I have a version of the CAV BPE2B pump fitted to our 1948 Kelvin J2

The capacity of the oil sump is just a tad over 25ml, measured with a medical syringe during regular replacement - probably every 50H or so when the dipstick indicates higher than max due to dilution by fuel.

Obviously a 3 cylinder pump could have a higher capacity, but even so, nearly half a litre seems very high by comparison, even with a lot of dilution.

Perhaps yours is not a CAV BPE pump as quoted by the OP?

Or maybe the installation in a Lister is radically different?

The most likely explanation is that in my case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?

I am no expert on Listers (I prefer engines beginning with a G and ending in LW) but the "exploded diagram" I found online suggests it might be a BPE (and I didn't look at the identification plate).  The diesel was up to the level of the dipstick tube i.e. its maximum capacity.

 

We didn't measure how much oil was put in as it was done with an oil can, about 10-15 squirts.  Perhaps a more scientific approach can be used next time but in the meantime it will be managed to the level on the dipstick.

[frangar]

1 hour ago, GRLMK38 said:

I am no expert on Listers (I prefer engines beginning with a G and ending in LW) but the "exploded diagram" I found online suggests it might be a BPE (and I didn't look at the identification plate).  The diesel was up to the level of the dipstick tube i.e. its maximum capacity.

 

We didn't measure how much oil was put in as it was done with an oil can, about 10-15 squirts.  Perhaps a more scientific approach can be used next time but in the meantime it will be managed to the level on the dipstick.

JP’s are fitted with CAV BPE pumps

[john.k]

Most older motors had a drain on the side of the pump.....a banjo fitting with a short pigtail,and excess cambox level simply drained out .......of course this upsets the naturally frugal ,or the environmentally inclined ,and the drain is plugged off......anyway ,there is no problem running a cambox on diesel,it has sufficient lubricating value.......look at all the works inside a Bosch rotary pump that runs on diesel,some applications have a large ballbearing that supports the cam belt drive running in diesel.

[frangar]

6 minutes ago, john.k said:

Most older motors had a drain on the side of the pump.....a banjo fitting with a short pigtail,and excess cambox level simply drained out .......of course this upsets the naturally frugal ,or the environmentally inclined ,and the drain is plugged off......anyway ,there is no problem running a cambox on diesel,it has sufficient lubricating value.......look at all the works inside a Bosch rotary pump that runs on diesel,some applications have a large ballbearing that supports the cam belt drive running in diesel.

The CAV pumps are a different animal from a rotary pump. Google CAV BPE and you will see. The camshafts don’t like running on solely diesel. 

[BEngo]

I think Ken's point was that a rotary pump is quite complicated, and has some loaded sliding parts, so if that survives on diesel lubrication, a fairly simple device like the BPE should too.

If you read the CAV manual specific to the BPE pump it implies that once the initial charge of oil has been added no further maintenance is needed and that fuel leakage will sort the lubrication out. The working items being lubricated by diesel/oil are the camshaft, roller tappets and the end bearings. These, IMO, should take no harm from diesel lubrication, given reasonable lubricity,  which is not always guaranteed in modern low-sulphur fuel. However, oil is cheap, so better safe than sorry.

 

The elements are always lubricated by diesel alone.

 

N

[frangar]

3 hours ago, BEngo said:

I think Ken's point was that a rotary pump is quite complicated, and has some loaded sliding parts, so if that survives on diesel lubrication, a fairly simple device like the BPE should too.

If you read the CAV manual specific to the BPE pump it implies that once the initial charge of oil has been added no further maintenance is needed and that fuel leakage will sort the lubrication out. The working items being lubricated by diesel/oil are the camshaft, roller tappets and the end bearings. These, IMO, should take no harm from diesel lubrication, given reasonable lubricity,  which is not always guaranteed in modern low-sulphur fuel. However, oil is cheap, so better safe than sorry.

 

The elements are always lubricated by diesel alone.

 

N

I’ve read that manual too....however every diesel pump specialist I’ve spoken to has suggested keeping the diesel in the pump to the minimum....and as you say oil is cheap....camshafts aren’t!  I can’t helping thinking the level shouldn’t be higher than the dipstick hole!  

[BWM]

I change the oil in my Jp3 injector pump every few months and would guess that it takes between 60 - 80 ml of oil. A job that takes a few minutes, i'd rather not take a chance on the lubrication qualities of today's red.

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

 I can’t helping thinking the level shouldn’t be higher than the dipstick hole!  

How could it be?

[frangar]

7 minutes ago, RLWP said:

How could it be?

On post 17 it’s suggested the diesel is coming out of the dipstick hole.....I’m not sure that’s an intended design feature...therefore it’s trying to be higher than the dipstick hole.... I’ve seen a couple like that but can’t help thinking that CAV didnt mean for that much to be in the sump 

[GRLMK38]

11 minutes ago, frangar said:

On post 17 it’s suggested the diesel is coming out of the dipstick hole.....I’m not sure that’s an intended design feature...therefore it’s trying to be higher than the dipstick hole.... I’ve seen a couple like that but can’t help thinking that CAV didnt mean for that much to be in the sump 

It was leaking from the dipstick when running, which I assume is due to the movement of the parts inside the pump and any leaking diesel adding to the level.  It has now been drained and filled with fresh engine oil to the upper mark on the dipstick (about 6-7mm from the end).

 

The owner will, now that he's aware of the issue, check the level and remove/refill regularly.  He's not on the forum but was grateful for all the help offered.

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, frangar said:

On post 17 it’s suggested the diesel is coming out of the dipstick hole.....I’m not sure that’s an intended design feature...therefore it’s trying to be higher than the dipstick hole.... I’ve seen a couple like that but can’t help thinking that CAV didnt mean for that much to be in the sump 

The dipstick hole has a  - er - dipstick in it, with marks to show the level

 

The level is significantly lower than the dipstick hole

 

And if you can fill it to higher than the dipstick hole, I'm impressed!

 

Richard

[frangar]

7 hours ago, RLWP said:

The dipstick hole has a  - er - dipstick in it, with marks to show the level

 

The level is significantly lower than the dipstick hole

 

And if you can fill it to higher than the dipstick hole, I'm impressed!

 

Richard

I think you’ve totally missed my humour and point.....let’s start again....

 

In post 17 it was stated that fluid was coming out of the dipstick hole.....it’s been suggested that CAV in the manual are happy with diesel in the sump of the pump with the oil.....I said that they possibly meant for only a small amount of diesel and that the pump in post 17 was allowing a fair bit of diesel into the sump and the level was high...rising to the dipstick hole....and as it was leaving via the hole was trying to become higher than said dipstick hole....it was meant to be humorous....bit lost now I’ve had to explain it quite so literally....

 

If you still don’t get it don’t worry.....

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, frangar said:

I think you’ve totally missed my humour and point.....let’s start again....

 

In post 17 it was stated that fluid was coming out of the dipstick hole.....it’s been suggested that CAV in the manual are happy with diesel in the sump of the pump with the oil.....I said that they possibly meant for only a small amount of diesel and that the pump in post 17 was allowing a fair bit of diesel into the sump and the level was high...rising to the dipstick hole....and as it was leaving via the hole was trying to become higher than said dipstick hole....it was meant to be humorous....bit lost now I’ve had to explain it quite so literally....

 

If you still don’t get it don’t worry.....

I suspect we are both misunderstanding while both trying to be humorous

 

I was taken with the idea of someone trying to fill something up to a level above the filling point  - that was all. Maybe with a syringe to extract the air above the filler while squirting new oil in?

 

Yes, I get your point. To be honest, if I find a pump like that on a customers engine I always recommend getting it rebuilt. There must be significant wear in the elements, and I get suspicious about elements getting loose and wearing out the pump body (= scrap). Plus the usual bearing and camshaft wear. Oh, and the mess

 

Richard

[john.k]

Some may note that the Bosch PE type pump has cam lobes similar to those of the engine,but not all inline pumps do......the later CAV Minimecs and Maximecs have instead a disc with a flat cut out of it that acts as a cam.Not just cheap to make ,but this system positively prevents the engine from being run backwards.......this is something that some engines are very prone to do,and often results in a fire in an aircleaner element.

[steamraiser2]

On 27/07/2019 at 20:56, RLWP said:

Not overkill at all! If the camshaft goes in your pump, you'll be looking for a new pump

Not really. We get pump camshafts made these days. So it's not the end of the world. We recondition quite a lot of these pumps for our own and customers engines. The fuel injection side of the business is fast catching up with the engine restoration and parts business it seems

[RLWP]

3 hours ago, steamraiser2 said:

Not really. We get pump camshafts made these days. So it's not the end of the world. We recondition quite a lot of these pumps for our own and customers engines. The fuel injection side of the business is fast catching up with the engine restoration and parts business it seems

Excellent - I didn't know that. Next time I'm looking for a camshaft I'll bear you in mind

 

Richard

[frangar]

On 29/07/2019 at 09:22, RLWP said:

I suspect we are both misunderstanding while both trying to be humorous

 

I was taken with the idea of someone trying to fill something up to a level above the filling point  - that was all. Maybe with a syringe to extract the air above the filler while squirting new oil in?

 

Yes, I get your point. To be honest, if I find a pump like that on a customers engine I always recommend getting it rebuilt. There must be significant wear in the elements, and I get suspicious about elements getting loose and wearing out the pump body (= scrap). Plus the usual bearing and camshaft wear. Oh, and the mess

 

Richard

I’ll forgive you. There are a surprisingly large number of BPE pumps running full of diesel with seemingly no ill effects...I wouldn’t want it to be mine! Some owners don’t even know they have to oil them. 

 

On 29/07/2019 at 14:10, steamraiser2 said:

Not really. We get pump camshafts made these days. So it's not the end of the world. We recondition quite a lot of these pumps for our own and customers engines. The fuel injection side of the business is fast catching up with the engine restoration and parts business it seems

Ohhhh. That’s interesting about the camshafts. Do you have a rough price for a pump overhaul? Mine was last overhauled in 1994 so it might be worth a check! All working fine but it does leak a bit into the sump and I’d rather be planned about it. 

[steamraiser2]

5 hours ago, frangar said:

I’ll forgive you. There are a surprisingly large number of BPE pumps running full of diesel with seemingly no ill effects...I wouldn’t want it to be mine! Some owners don’t even know they have to oil them. 

 

Ohhhh. That’s interesting about the camshafts. Do you have a rough price for a pump overhaul? Mine was last overhauled in 1994 so it might be worth a check! All working fine but it does leak a bit into the sump and I’d rather be planned about it. 

about £100 to test and calibrate, £200 to strip and rebuild plus parts. A truly clapped pump needing elements & bearings and delivery valves etc could easily get up towards £600. Hard to estimate until its is stripped and checked

 

[frangar]

3 hours ago, steamraiser2 said:

about £100 to test and calibrate, £200 to strip and rebuild plus parts. A truly clapped pump needing elements & bearings and delivery valves etc could easily get up towards £600. Hard to estimate until its is stripped and checked

 

Thanks for that. I shall be in touch over the winter! 

[RLWP]

Pretty similar to the diesel shop we use

 

Richard