"British Waterways" Name

[alan_fincher]

OK, for the historians, (and probably a very dumb question!.......)

 

Sources seem to say that "British Waterways", (BW), or "British Waterways Board",(BWB),came into existence in 1963 following the break-up of the British Transport Commission, (BTC).

 

Prior to that we are told the waterways fell under the BTC, first as the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive, (DIWE), then as the British Transport Waterways.

 

I'm fine with all that, except........

 

There are published pictures of boats way before 1963, (example 1957), where the boats are clearly sign-written "British Waterways".

 

So is in some way a difference between British Waterways coming formally into being as late as 1963, and the same name apparently appearing on nationalised boats some considerable years earlier ?

 

I'm sure it's a dumb question, and I've missed something obvious, but at the moment I've decided I really don't get it!

 

Can anybody sort me out, please ?

[sociable_hermit]

I'd imagine "British Waterways" was a sub-brand of the BTC throughout its existence? Or at least part of it.

 

Trains carried "British Railways" branding, not "BTC", remember.

[Guest]

Can anybody sort me out, please ?

 

The impossible we do immediately, miracles take a little longer.... ;)

[alan_fincher]

I'd imagine "British Waterways" was a sub-brand of the BTC throughout its existence? Or at least part of it.

 

Trains carried "British Railways" branding, not "BTC", remember.

Yes,

 

Kind of what I assume - it was originally a "branding" rather than a legal name.

 

Just hoping someone can clarify.

 

I realise I also haven't asked the question that some boats were lettered just "British Waterways", but others carried "British Waterways Board". If wondering if the former was pre 1963, and the latter a change made after 1963 ?

 

I'm sure it's all obvious once someone spells it out!

[sociable_hermit]

Don't assume too much logic.

 

I would guess that in the early days of the BTC the painters probably just did what they thought best, while waiting for the instructions to arrive.

 

And it's quite possible that liveries overlapped, depending on when a boat was next due a major docking.

[Derek R.]

You're expecting too much Black & White, both the past, and the future - the World is Grey.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Derek R.

[c c]

I have a photo of Badsey from a 1950's publication where it is very roughly painted BRITISH WATERWAYS with Butty Balham still in GUCCCo livery.

[billh]

OK, for the historians, (and probably a very dumb question!.......)

 

Sources seem to say that "British Waterways", (BW), or "British Waterways Board",(BWB),came into existence in 1963 following the break-up of the British Transport Commission, (BTC).

 

Prior to that we are told the waterways fell under the BTC, first as the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive, (DIWE), then as the British Transport Waterways.

 

I'm fine with all that, except........

 

There are published pictures of boats way before 1963, (example 1957), where the boats are clearly sign-written "British Waterways".

 

So is in some way a difference between British Waterways coming formally into being as late as 1963, and the same name apparently appearing on nationalised boats some considerable years earlier ?

 

I'm sure it's a dumb question, and I've missed something obvious, but at the moment I've decided I really don't get it!

 

Can anybody sort me out, please ?

 

"British Waterways" was used initially by the Docks & Inland Waterways Executive from 1948. D& IWE was abolished in about 1953(?), when BTC became "in charge".British Waterways Board was created in the 1962 Transport Act, when canals finally got separated from roads and railways.

Some while ago, on this forum, Eugene Baston, formerly of BWB, pointed out in no uncertain terms that the BW pre 1962 was not the same BW post 1962, although ,of course, most of the staff were the very same.

An interesting aside, that has recently come to light is that if you worked for British *Railways* pre 1962, you can get a substantial reduction in your boat license fee even now- not many people know that!

I have pictures of our wooden motor, from 1950, 1955,and 1960.The paint scheme and signing is different on all three. The only common feature is "British Waterways" painted in big letters, not in an arc, but straight and no block shading. The 1955 picture has the BTC roundel ( a transfer) applied. The latest picture shows very poor sign writing, perhaps because the Canal depot and the canal was on the point of closure as indeed it was by 1962.

Bill

[Paul H]

The 1948 Act created the British Transport Commission which provides for 5 "executives" of which one was the DIWE. For convenience the waterways DIWE part was known as British Waterways, the rail as British Railways and the road transport as British Road Services.

 

The first ex-Grand Union boats were painted as British Waterways in 1948 and can be seen in Sonia Rolts book A Canal People but they were not blue and yellow they were simply an adaption of the GU utlity livery - ie BW painted on red and blue cabinsides. When FMC were taken over in 1949 thoughts began to be given to a new livery firstly predominately yellow with blue trim and then later these were reversed with the blue and yellow livery we see popular on ex-working boats today. I'm not sure when the BW roundel ("lifeboat") symbol was first introduced but the standard one says "British Waterways Transport." I think later ones said British Waterways Board (after 1962)

 

Later of course the livery was simplified to an all-over blue but I'm convinced by that time many were in a darker blue rather than azure we tend to use now. Capricorn was certainly in a darker blue when pictured at Gayton.in the 1950s/early 1960s. See the boat history on the HNBOC site here

 

Paul

[Hairy-Neil]

I'm not sure when the BW roundel ("lifeboat") symbol was first introduced but the standard one says "British Waterways Transport."

 

I always read it as British Transport, Waterways

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Paul,

 

That helps.

 

If I had been thinking straight last night, it's obvious that the "British Waterways" title was in use almost from the outset.

 

Is it correct to say, do you think, that the "British Waterways Board" name did not exist until 1963, and so that final word would not have been sign-written on to a boat until after that date. If so, that might help date certain pictures as "no earlier than 1963".

 

As an aside, I guess the significance of the exact timing of the act has never really occurred to me before. The act established the new organisation at precisely the point that canal trade was completely shut down by one of the hardest winters for very many years. As the 1962/1963 winter is widely cited as having caused the loss of many of the last of the most important long distance canal traffics, the new organisation was effectively trying to start up at exactly the point that much of the remaining commercial trade was being lost forever.

 

Edited to add:

 

Just read your Capricorn page on HNBOC site. I've never heard the Olga Kevelos / Clement Freud story before! Love it, and in view of what an unusual person she must have been, probably true, I'm guessing!

Edited June 22, 2011 by alan_fincher

[XAlan W]

The 1948 Act created the British Transport Commission which provides for 5 "executives" of which one was the DIWE. For convenience the waterways DIWE part was known as British Waterways, the rail as British Railways and the road transport as British Road Services.

 

The first ex-Grand Union boats were painted as British Waterways in 1948 and can be seen in Sonia Rolts book A Canal People but they were not blue and yellow they were simply an adaption of the GU utlity livery - ie BW painted on red and blue cabinsides. When FMC were taken over in 1949 thoughts began to be given to a new livery firstly predominately yellow with blue trim and then later these were reversed with the blue and yellow livery we see popular on ex-working boats today. I'm not sure when the BW roundel ("lifeboat") symbol was first introduced but the standard one says "British Waterways Transport." I think later ones said British Waterways Board (after 1962)

 

Later of course the livery was simplified to an all-over blue but I'm convinced by that time many were in a darker blue rather than azure we tend to use now. Capricorn was certainly in a darker blue when pictured at Gayton.in the 1950s/early 1960s. See the boat history on the HNBOC site here

 

Paul

When I first went to view LILY prior to buying in 1957 just legible on the cabin on one side was British Waterways just written straight& not in an arc, the blue although tatty was darker than the later pre green, blue used by BW strange part was the fore deck/ end was still red & green + it still had the full/ new moons on the fore end

[fanshaft]

 

As the 1962/1963 winter is widely cited as having caused the loss of many of the last of the most important long distance canal traffics, the new organisation was effectively trying to start up at exactly the point that much of the remaining commercial trade was being lost forever.

 

 

Widely, but according to such authorities as David Blagrove and Nick Hill, incorrectly. Not one long distance narrow boat (or any other significant) traffic was lost solely due to the harsh winter of 62/63. Although some claim that the coal traffic to Blackburn (Whitebirk) Power station might be an exception, even here the coal allocation was changed to Yorkshire anyway. It wasn't just the canals that were stopped, but virtually everything ground to a halt during that freeze. Of course BW handed most of its narrow boats and contracts to Willow Wren CTS in the south (1963) and the north (1964) but it must have been obvious to most that the writing was on the wall for narrow boat carrying with all the changes within industry, the clean air act, natural gas, containerisation etc. By the way I recall reading in the IWA Bulletin that the yellow and blue livery was the idea of Robert Davidson (Manager of the Leeds & Liverpool IIRC) who had joined the newly formed inland waterways executive. The yellow was described as 'gold'. When talking of long distance traffics, don't forget that Hull to Nottingham (96 miles), and Leeds to Liverpool (127 miles) is also a long way so it's not just narrow boats that travelled long distance!

 

regards

 

David L

[alan_fincher]

Widely, but according to such authorities as David Blagrove and Nick Hill, incorrectly. Not one long distance narrow boat (or any other significant) traffic was lost solely due to the harsh winter of 62/63.

Well in that case, perhaps it is so?

 

On the other hand, clearly some of the factories relying on significant amounts of coal normally brought in by narrow boat, are unlikely to have had sufficient stockpiles to not have had their production interrupted. It is certainly my understanding that John Dickinson's Apsley Mill was able to get some coal in by road during the 1963/3 freeze up. Even if some further canal deliveries did resume after the thaw, is it not possible that the fact that road deliveries had been taking place had some influence on the fairly quick death of canal carriage to that site ?

 

I don't think Nash Mills fell into the same camp, as I believe it moved away from coal fired to oil about that time anyway, although I don't profess to remember full details.

[Pluto]

Widely, but according to such authorities as David Blagrove and Nick Hill, incorrectly. Not one long distance narrow boat (or any other significant) traffic was lost solely due to the harsh winter of 62/63. Although some claim that the coal traffic to Blackburn (Whitebirk) Power station might be an exception, even here the coal allocation was changed to Yorkshire anyway. It wasn't just the canals that were stopped, but virtually everything ground to a halt during that freeze. Of course BW handed most of its narrow boats and contracts to Willow Wren CTS in the south (1963) and the north (1964) but it must have been obvious to most that the writing was on the wall for narrow boat carrying with all the changes within industry, the clean air act, natural gas, containerisation etc. By the way I recall reading in the IWA Bulletin that the yellow and blue livery was the idea of Robert Davidson (Manager of the Leeds & Liverpool IIRC) who had joined the newly formed inland waterways executive. The yellow was described as 'gold'. When talking of long distance traffics, don't forget that Hull to Nottingham (96 miles), and Leeds to Liverpool (127 miles) is also a long way so it's not just narrow boats that travelled long distance!

 

regards

 

David L

With regard to the Whitebirk traffic, the coal from Burnley had declined in quality such that it was no longer suitable. A supply from Adlington was considered, though some dredging was required and Johnsons Hillock Locks were thought to be in too poor a condition for regular commercial traffic. Hargreaves were in charge of the traffic by then, so it was probably easier for them to source suitable coal from Yorkshire. The other L&LC coal traffic which ended at this time, from Crooke to Tate & Lyle's and gas works in Liverpool, was replaced by coal supplied by rail to Bank Hall tip, with boats taking the cargo the last few yards during the winter of 1962/3. These traffics ended with the change over to natural gas and alterations at Tate & Lyle's.

 

Robert Davidson was the L&LC Manager, and was the person from the north west sent down to manage the national system in London. This upset, Mr Marsh, from the Weaver, who, according to some L&LC staff who were around at the time I have spoken to, thought he should have the post. He was put in charge of north west canals and was able to restrict investment in the L&LC, resulting in a drastic fall in maintenance standards. The new Wigan maintenance yard was built at this time as the centre for making lock gates in the north west. Someone certainly seems not to have looked at the plans properly, as the headroom under the overhead crane was reputedly insufficient to list and turn a wide lock gate.

[Hairy-Neil]

Well in that case, perhaps it is so?

 

On the other hand, clearly some of the factories relying on significant amounts of coal normally brought in by narrow boat, are unlikely to have had sufficient stockpiles to not have had their production interrupted. It is certainly my understanding that John Dickinson's Apsley Mill was able to get some coal in by road during the 1963/3 freeze up. Even if some further canal deliveries did resume after the thaw, is it not possible that the fact that road deliveries had been taking place had some influence on the fairly quick death of canal carriage to that site ?

 

I don't think Nash Mills fell into the same camp, as I believe it moved away from coal fired to oil about that time anyway, although I don't profess to remember full details.

 

Waterborne coal to Nash ended in late july 1962, so long before the freeze up. Apsley's coal restarted after the thaw but only for a matter of weeks. By the middle of may it was all over, though significant amounts were delivered by canal in the period after traffic resumed on march 11th.

[Chertsey]

The 1948 Act created the British Transport Commission which provides for 5 "executives" of which one was the DIWE. For convenience the waterways DIWE part was known as British Waterways, the rail as British Railways and the road transport as British Road Services.

 

The first ex-Grand Union boats were painted as British Waterways in 1948 and can be seen in Sonia Rolts book A Canal People but they were not blue and yellow they were simply an adaption of the GU utlity livery - ie BW painted on red and blue cabinsides. When FMC were taken over in 1949 thoughts began to be given to a new livery firstly predominately yellow with blue trim and then later these were reversed with the blue and yellow livery we see popular on ex-working boats today. I'm not sure when the BW roundel ("lifeboat") symbol was first introduced but the standard one says "British Waterways Transport." I think later ones said British Waterways Board (after 1962)

 

Later of course the livery was simplified to an all-over blue but I'm convinced by that time many were in a darker blue rather than azure we tend to use now. Capricorn was certainly in a darker blue when pictured at Gayton.in the 1950s/early 1960s. See the boat history on the HNBOC site here

 

Paul

 

It was thanks to a certain person telling me this at Braunston in 2010 I settled on Chertsey's colour scheme - here it is. Not an historically perfect recreation but the painting on the cabinsides, and the signwriting, is based on those photos in A Canal People (p. 96 has a good example) and colours recommended by Phil Speight as the best match for GU austerity colours. The diamond on the deckboard and the heart on the slide are a homage to the ones it carried in Richard Barnett's ownership. Coachpainting by Martin O'Callaghan and signwriting by Dave Moore.

 

I'm delighted with it so thanks for the inspiration!

[AMModels]

Lovely paint job, hope you get a few questioning comments about the colours and you can put them straight.

[stagedamager]

i agree, lovely colour scheme, and well written!!

[Laurence Hogg]

The boats were at first painted in the predominantly yellow and blue livery with "British Waterways" on the cabin with the roundel saying "DIWE", I have one of those roundels here if anyone needs a scan.

Soon afterwards the more well known blue and yellow "traffic" livery appeared, there was a set of rules in place for what went where although the further north you tarvelled the more variations appeared. This livery had the roundel "British Transport Waterway". Following the end of BTC they still carried on with this livery and it wasnt until quite late on you see boats without the roundel and some just plain blue not Blue and Gold. There are a myriad of variations and if I were to post all I have here the forum would overload! The roundel survived a long time, well after the end of BTC. Colours varied too, here in the Black country maintenance craft and anything coming out of Bradley was painted in a dark bue locally sourced from Manders paints in Wolverhampton. Although "Azure" blue was stated the yard just got the nearest to it and thats how the boats got into different shades. Theres one picture I have which shows a collection of smart BW craft on exhibition (inc a middle Northwich icebreaker) in London all corporate in Blue and Gold - HERE IT IS!! Now start guessing which Middle Northwich it is!!

 

 

And for Chertsey,

Brilliant job, at last a livery which hasnt been reproduced before!

Edited September 15, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[Ray T]

"HERE IT IS!! Now start guessing which Middle Northwich it is!!"

 

Sickle ?

[alan_fincher]

Theres one picture I have which shows a collection of smart BW craft on exhibition (inc a middle Northwich icebreaker) in London all corporate in Blue and Gold - HERE IT IS!! Now start guessing which Middle Northwich it is!!

 

Unless you want to say otherwise, the smart money is on the "Middle Northwich" being "Sickle". (I thought you were not a fan of these nick-names! )

 

Reasons for this are.....

 

1) It is thought that "Sickle" and "Theophilus" were "Southern" boats, whereas "Tycho" and "Sextans" worked significantly further to the North, (Hillmorton, etc....). As it's London it is likely to be "Sickle" or "Theophilus".

 

2) The boats had different arrangements for the "A" frame used to rock the boat when ice-breaking. Sickle had the legs of the frame coming well towards the gunwales, whereas the evidence is that, (as Tycho still is), Theophilus had its frames much narrower at the base, carried on some kind of beam across the hull. (I've no idea why they should be treated differently, as the story is that Bulls Bridge did the conversions on all four, but that is not the only thing that is visually different between the four boats that received this treatment in 1942.)

 

3) (The most compelling to me!) There is another photo, claimed to be the same year, showing "Sickle" leaving Fishery Lock, Boxmoor. It carries the same style "A" frame, and a very smart livery, looking exactly like that in the exhibition photo, and has "Sickle" painted on the front end. So, unless two boats were equally dolled up at that time, the one at the exhibition is likely to be "Sickle". (The name on the bows looks too short for "Theophilus" too, to me!).

 

The only thing that is not consistent......

 

4) A BW record card for the same year records "Sickle" as still a 45 foot boat with the 5 foot ice ram present. In both your picture, and the Boxmoor picture, the ice-ram has already been torched off.

 

I think, despite the record card, "Sickle" can not have been carrying the ice ram by this date, but I have no other info on when it may have been removed, (and indeed have no info on when "Sextans" or "Theophilus" lost theirs).

 

Out of curiosity Laurence, can you explain the "Copyright LHP Collection" on the image. This image is already in the public domain, not shown as copyrighted to you, and I would not have hesitated to link to it under such circumstances. What is the copyright situation for a historic image like this, please ? As the owner of "Sickle", it seems a shame if I can't use historic pictures of what is almost certainly my boat.

[Speedwheel]

Does anyone know when Sickle, Theophilus or Sextans lost their A-frames?

 

I have a picture taken in what I am fairly certain wwas 1963 at Brentford showing the front end of what I think is either Sickle of Theo'. Not my copyright unfortunately so I can't post it.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Speedwheel

[alan_fincher]

Does anyone know when Sickle, Theophilus or Sextans lost their A-frames?

No - but I'm told Sickles's were lying around at Apsley depot for many years.

Edited September 15, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Laurence Hogg]

Unless you want to say otherwise, the smart money is on the "Middle Northwich" being "Sickle". (I thought you were not a fan of these nick-names! )

 

Alan,

PM sent. I am happy with small, middle and large, its the "Town class", "Star class", "Fish class" which are just modern terms invented by enthusiasts, all the boat folks I knew never used those class names.