Battery Testing

[smileypete]

Naaa, the difference he's getting between the measured SG and the expected SG for a normal battery only requires a few extra percent volume of electrolyte. It's not like we're talking an extra 4 pints or something silly.

 

ETA: Another way of looking at it:-

 

I concluded that a very simple explanation for the higher measured SG than would be expected is a simple case of the battery having more acid in it. The data from the manufacturers says those batteries have more acid in them. Seems pretty conclusive to me. There's no need to look for another explanation because it's right in front of you.

OK so please state the reason why you think his batts have basically failed.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

OK so please state the reason why you think his batts have basically failed.

 

They haven't. This is a different set of batteries. That's how the thread reads to me.

[smileypete]

They haven't. This is a different set of batteries. That's how the thread reads to me.

I mean the ones he was talking about in post #6, not the ones he has now:

 

This year I replaced all 4 of my domestic batteries with new ones purchased through Adverc and supplied by Manbat. After less than a month of use they had lost more than half of their capacity to sulphation, despite my having invested a lot of diesel into ensuring that my charging regime was second to none (for example on no day was the engine ever stopped before the charge current had dropped to less than 2 Amps per battery).

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

I mean the ones he was talking about in post #6, not the ones he has now:

 

But those didn't show the anomolous SG reading that is now being discussed. They simply showed low SG all the time which is a classic symptom of sulphation. Nothing to do with the high SG he is now getting with a different set of batteries.

[smileypete]

But those didn't show the anomolous SG reading that is now being discussed. They simply showed low SG all the time which is a classic symptom of sulphation. Nothing to do with the high SG he is now getting with a different set of batteries.

I think I'd like to find out why the first set got sulphated despite being charged for long periods, but they're not my batts.

 

ETA: So why do you think the first set failed despite being charged for long periods?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited June 13, 2011 by smileypete

[Gibbo]

I think I'd like to find out why the first set got sulphated despite being charged for long periods, but they're not my batts.

 

ETA: So why do you think the first set failed despite being charged for long periods?

 

Insufficient charge voltage. Because the data says they're calcium.

[smileypete]

Insufficient charge voltage. Because the data says they're calcium.

OK. Now what type batts do you think he has now, the same or something different?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

What voltage should they need if they are calcium? They're being charged by the Adverc to 14.4 volts, and the charging current reduces down to 2 amps per battery quite easily (about 4 hours charging) . It takes a bit more effort to get it down to 1A per battery (about 6 hours charging) but it gets there. I don't know anything about calcium technology, but I'd have thought it shows they are getting charged sufficiently. The alternator, the controller, and the batteries were all purchased from Adverc so I expect them all to work together. If the second batch get sulphated in an unacceptable time, they'll be changed for another make.

 

I find it interesting that ManBat have told me that one of their other popular brands (which I have promised not to name while they are actively investigating) has been showing exactly the same symptoms on just one particular variant of the 135 Ah range but not on any of their 110 Ah ones, for about 3 months now.

 

ManBat have promised to let me know the results from their own tests on the first set of batteries, as soon as they know them, but I suspect they'll just come up with some trivial and meaningless comments. I'll post here as soon as I know any more.

[Gibbo]

OK. Now what type batts do you think he has now, the same or something different?

 

I think they're different.

 

What voltage should they need if they are calcium? They're being charged by the Adverc to 14.4 volts, and the charging current reduces down to 2 amps per battery quite easily (about 4 hours charging) . It takes a bit more effort to get it down to 1A per battery (about 6 hours charging) but it gets there. I don't know anything about calcium technology, but I'd have thought it shows they are getting charged sufficiently. The alternator, the controller, and the batteries were all purchased from Adverc so I expect them all to work together. If the second batch get sulphated in an unacceptable time, they'll be changed for another make.

 

I find it interesting that ManBat have told me that one of their other popular brands (which I have promised not to name while they are actively investigating) has been showing exactly the same symptoms on just one particular variant of the 135 Ah range but not on any of their 110 Ah ones, for about 3 months now.

 

ManBat have promised to let me know the results from their own tests on the first set of batteries, as soon as they know them, but I suspect they'll just come up with some trivial and meaningless comments. I'll post here as soon as I know any more.

 

It's awkward this. You have to differentiate between charging and conditioning. 14.4 volts will fully charge a calcium battery. But it will leave a fair bit of sulphate on there (it could be argued that they are not therefore fully charged). Most manufacturers recommend somewhere round 14.8 to 15.0 volts for calcium.

[Tony Brooks]

I think they're different.

 

 

 

It's awkward this. You have to differentiate between charging and conditioning. 14.4 volts will fully charge a calcium battery. But it will leave a fair bit of sulphate on there (it could be argued that they are not therefore fully charged). Most manufacturers recommend somewhere round 14.8 to 15.0 volts for calcium.

 

 

So possibly, once they are sorted and known to be calcium, it will be time to put a diode in the Adverc sensing lead?

[Gibbo]

So possibly, once they are sorted and known to be calcium, it will be time to put a diode in the Adverc sensing lead?

 

It's a possibility. But the Advercs I've seen have a twiddler inside them. I don't know if the laters ones still do.

[smileypete]

What voltage should they need if they are calcium? They're being charged by the Adverc to 14.4 volts, and the charging current reduces down to 2 amps per battery quite easily (about 4 hours charging) . It takes a bit more effort to get it down to 1A per battery (about 6 hours charging) but it gets there. I don't know anything about calcium technology, but I'd have thought it shows they are getting charged sufficiently. The alternator, the controller, and the batteries were all purchased from Adverc so I expect them all to work together. If the second batch get sulphated in an unacceptable time, they'll be changed for another make.

That doesn't always mean a lot.

 

If you charged them at 13.8V you'd see the same thing but it wouldn't guarantee they're fully charged.

 

It only counts if they're being charged at the manufacturers recommended absorption voltage for charging from deep discharge. (See the Battery FAQ) Maybe Adverc can find out this for you.

 

By way of a second opinion, I'd try to find out the gassing voltage myself using some sort of DC power supply eg old laptop adapter, solar panel, together with a current limiting resistor, eg a bulb or two, AND A FUSE at the +ve battery post end.

 

 

I find it interesting that ManBat have told me that one of their other popular brands (which I have promised not to name while they are actively investigating) has been showing exactly the same symptoms on just one particular variant of the 135 Ah range but not on any of their 110 Ah ones, for about 3 months now.

135 Ah batts of the '648' shape have A LOT of acid above the plates.

 

If they're not topped up or charged well enough I'd expect all sorts of problems as a result. They are better that 110Ah ones but not nearly as 'boater proof'

 

cheers,

Pete.

[cereal tiller]

That is exactly what we were told about three years ago when our batteries failed. They too were guaranteed for five years; they were very expensive with a brand name beginning with 'E' and bright yellow in colour.

 

We didn't pursue our claim and just re-cycled the expensive batteries in favour of four second hand batteries bought on this forum for £25 each. These second hand batteries have already surpassed the E******s in terms of life and performance.

 

 

 

That sounds rather familiar . . .

 

i am in dispute with a battery supplier/IMPORTER who has been mentioned recently. the 5 five new batteries which went into service early april have now only 30% of capacity!

 

this matter will be ,hopefully. resolved shortly,in the meantime i could maybe use secondhand ones as N.B.ALWICK has done.

anyone know where they were obtained?

[Bobbybass]

I'm trying to get a battery replaced under a so-called 5 year warranty. The supplier has asked me to provide a print out from a digital drop tester. Does anyone know where I could obtain this? I've tried Halfords, Kwik-Fit a local motor shop, Pennine Cruisers in Skipton, Silsden Boats on the LLC. I've obtained test results but no-one can print out. Is it usual to have to provide such a print-out or am I being led up the garden path? Would appreciate members views and experience of battery warranties. I'm currently cruising around West and North Yorkshire on the LLC.

Can't you take a photo of it...and then email it ?

 

Bob

[WotEver]

... i could maybe use secondhand ones as N.B.ALWICK has done.

anyone know where they were obtained?

Vince: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15343

 

Tony

[Franklin]

not sure if I made a typo re the date of purchase of the 220 ah's. It should be Aug 08 with a 5 yr warranty

[Franklin]

Thank you all for your comments and good advice. You have guessed correctly - the sun logo indeed. Since posting my question I have phoned at least 10 motor factors and none can provide a print out, though several could provide a drop test. After reading Tony's response though, I am thankful at the moment that I have not gone ahead with it. Last week I found an extremely helpful guy at S&J Motorfactors in Bradford (tel 01274723027) - if anyone needs a motor spares shop in the area - he’s your man.

On seeing the battery and hearing our tale of woe he did me a test (not a drop test) with a print-out showing Volts 11.70 measured 143a EN Rating 500A EN (if this means anything to you very knowledgeable folk?). He then took the battery for a couple of days, and deep-charged it, giving me a final read-out of Volts 14.09 measured 230A EN Rating 500A EN. He suggested I try the battery again, gave us loads of advice and was genuinely concerned and helpful about the problem. What a lovely helpful fellow he was, and insisted he didn't want any money for his trouble - though I managed to make him take a contribution to the tea-fund box eventually. We've re-connected it with the other one and have used them for the few days. Getting a bit more power, certainly not up to what I’d expect - though I’m wondering if in my ignorance I’m expecting too much.

So, we're back to 2 x 220 Ah deep cycle carbon fibre batteries, bought in Aug 2008 which we use with our MasterVolt 12/2500-100 Inverter and charger (12v system). We’re a widebeam with a 62 hp beta marine engine. We have a separate starter battery. We had a service with the RCR in May 11 and they told us the 95 amp alternator was charging correctly. Although we live aboard and during the winter use shore power, during the summer when out on the system I think we are fairly low consumers. Small tv 30 mins a day, a few LEDs - not on much at moment, a 12v fridge. Maybe not (wearing my tin-hat here in case I get a blast from you all). After reading various pieces of advice here on Canal World, I will do a power audit and I have bought a multi-meter (not tried it yet, looks a bit daunting). We have always had to run the engine 2 x per day, for 1-2 hours approx each time - even when the batteries were new - a bit more if using the laptop or TV, but we run the engine at the same time. On travelling days - though we only do 4 hours or so generally, we tend to get enough charge into the batteries without having to do extra charging. I know we will never get the batteries fully charged just running the engine, and I know with the sulphation problem we had we probably have poor battery, but any comments anyone? Are we using too many appliances? Not running the engine long enough? Or just expecting too much from very expensive batteries that have an unworkable 5-year ‘guarantee’?

Anyway, back to those people with the sun logo - last week I emailed them and asked where I could get a digital drop test with a print out - before I read Tony's comments. Unsurprisingly I have had no response - I shall for the moment pursue the warranty (knowing full well really, that it's not worth the paper it's written on). I'm pretty sure they will say it's mis-use, and I can't prove otherwise of course. I have always followed all their do’s and don’ts and have read all their FAQs (see their website). Hopefully discussing these sun logo people on this forum, might dissuade others from buying from them. I’ve not seen any ads in Canal World or Waterways World for them for ages, though the Caravan Club continues to ‘endorse’ them. I have emailed those not very sunny people twice in the last few days, and got no reply. Beware I say!

Thank you again for all your efforts and information - though reading your comments and advice, I’d better understand a bit more about usage and maintenance of the batteries before I plunge for a set of new ones! ps- is it better to get 4 x 110's or 3 x 130's or large ah's or does it all depend on space available or cost? Showing my ignorance again!!

[WotEver]

Not running the engine long enough?

Exactly that. You never get the batteries back to 100%, so they gradually lose their capacity. You've had 3 years out of them, which is about average for anyone who doesn't make it their mission in life to nurse their batteries 24/7.

 

So... time for a new set

 

Cheers,

Tony

[bottle]

My input, not much I will admit but your inverter/charger will charge at 100amps if necessary you will be lucky to get 45 to 50 amps out of your alternator. We just don't spin them fast enough.

 

Not being specific, just a general observation but my inverter/charger will put more into my battery bank in one hour than the alternator will in five.

[Tony Brooks]

A slight warning. I gave my original replay without knowing the battery brand. Now we know the brand I think I am right in saying that they claimed their batteries were dual purpose (not sure since they went sealed)so asking for a HRD test may be OK, but you still need to know the CCA for setting the tester.

 

I go with Wotever - time for a new set and this time do not get seduced by promises of a long life. This normally relates to a large cyclic life and sulphation will kill expensive batteries just as surely as it killed yours.

 

You really need to do the power audit and charging calculations you will find on my website before you can even guess at battery capacity but given adequate charging the larger the capacity you install the less the percentage of battery capacity you will discharge it so you prolong cyclic life. That means 4 x 110 (440 Ah) is better than 3 x 130 (390 Ah) all other things being equal. But the more batteries you put in a bank the more important it is to get the wiring and interlinks right.

[bottle]

But the more batteries you put in a bank the more important it is to get the wiring and interlinks right.

 

and for advice on that go to.http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/ and click on 'Technical info'

[smileypete]

ManBat have promised to let me know the results from their own tests on the first set of batteries, as soon as they know them, but I suspect they'll just come up with some trivial and meaningless comments. I'll post here as soon as I know any more.

Any news on what the absorption charging voltage is supposed to be, or can you find out what voltage the batts start gassing at?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

No the only news I've had back from them so far is confirmation that the batteries had indeed got virtually no capacity. They did also suggest that about once a month perhaps I could try disconnecting the sensor wire from the Adverc so that the charge voltage would rise right up and make the batteries start gassing, but at this rate they're not going to make it to a month old.

 

The replacement Varta batteries are now 3 weeks old and their capacity is already down to about one-half of what it started at (I just happened to do the test over yesterday and today) so I'll be phoning them up tomorrow to discuss it. Their SG is still showing higher than expected for their terminal voltage.

[smileypete]

No the only news I've had back from them so far is confirmation that the batteries had indeed got virtually no capacity. They did also suggest that about once a month perhaps I could try disconnecting the sensor wire from the Adverc so that the charge voltage would rise right up and make the batteries start gassing, but at this rate they're not going to make it to a month old.

 

The replacement Varta batteries are now 3 weeks old and their capacity is already down to about one-half of what it started at (I just happened to do the test over yesterday and today) so I'll be phoning them up tomorrow to discuss it. Their SG is still showing higher than expected for their terminal voltage.

What voltage are you charging up to, 14.4V?

 

Sounds like they're being undercharged, Adverc/Varta should be able to tell what the absorption charging voltage should be.

 

How do you measure the capacity, with a discharge or with Smartgauge?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

What voltage are you charging up to, 14.4V?

 

Sounds like they're being undercharged, Adverc/Varta should be able to tell what the absorption charging voltage should be.

 

How do you measure the capacity, with a discharge or with Smartgauge?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Yes, 14.4 volts, the standard Adverc setting. I don't think Adverc know any different figure for these batteries.

 

I'm estimating the capacity from a log of the discharge over 24 hours. I can estimate it all pretty accurately except for the fridge, whose duty cycle is a wild guess; I've measured the current drawn by every electrical item on the boat using a digital meter (where it's a 240v item, I've measured the current drain on the inverter's supply) and I know how much time they've each been used for including those which are always on.

 

After just 24 hours from what appeared to be fully charged, the open-circuit voltage was down to 12.05 yesterday (although the SG was still comparatively high at 1210). My estimate was that I'd taken 120 Ah from the bank of 4 during those 24 hours, then as a sanity check I watched the ammeter while I recharged them and I estimate that they were fully charged again when I'd put 140 Ah back in. It's a fairly inaccurate estimate but seems to stack up with my estimate of the discharge fairly well.