Battery Testing

[Franklin]

I'm trying to get a battery replaced under a so-called 5 year warranty. The supplier has asked me to provide a print out from a digital drop tester. Does anyone know where I could obtain this? I've tried Halfords, Kwik-Fit a local motor shop, Pennine Cruisers in Skipton, Silsden Boats on the LLC. I've obtained test results but no-one can print out. Is it usual to have to provide such a print-out or am I being led up the garden path? Would appreciate members views and experience of battery warranties. I'm currently cruising around West and North Yorkshire on the LLC.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Franklin

[Ark Right]

Hi, you can purchase a Digital Drop tester for about £35 quid, there is no interface to download data and I really can't see a reason why it would be necessary to download such data. IMO you are being taken for a ride by the battery suppliers / manufacturers. That said I am searching for that old crash helmet I have stored somewhere for when the guys and gals who know more than me come along!

[bottle]

Found two, (google) there are sure to be others but they are over £300 each.

 

 

edit: to remove link, thanks Ark Right.

Edited June 10, 2011 by bottle

[Ark Right]

Found two, there are sure to be others but they are over £300 each.

 

Link: first one I found via google: 1 and 4 up from bottom of page.

 

Hi, the link is wrong.

Cheers

A

[Tony Brooks]

Hi, you can purchase a Digital Drop tester for about £35 quid, there is no interface to download data and I really can't see a reason why it would be necessary to download such data. IMO you are being taken for a ride by the battery suppliers / manufacturers. That said I am searching for that old crash helmet I have stored somewhere for when the guys and gals who know more than me come along!

 

 

I agree and to make matters worse if the battery was sold for domestic use I doubt it will be possible to drop test it. I say that because drop testers are used for starting type batteries which are sized in CCA and domestic batteries are sized in Ah. There is no correlation between CCA and Ah.

 

If it is a domestic battery I would go back to the supplier and demand written assurances that drop testing will not damage the battery AND the CCA the battery is rated at. Once you have that the supplier is in a bit of a bind because they have all but admitted they sold you a starting battery so it could never have been fit for purpose.

 

Any drop tester that provides a printout will need the CCA of the battery under test to be input or it will be designed for a specific small range of battery sizes so it can not be done without the CCA. In any case a drop test needs to be carried out on a well charged battery otherwise all it will tell you is the battery is unservicable because it is flat.

 

There are some very sophisticated battery testers that the supplier or their distributor should be able to access that will provide a printout and are suitable for testing deep cycle batteries in almost any state of charge but it is not for a customer to locate one and pay for the test.

 

I think you need to have words with your supplier and tell them that if they will not do a test by a method accepted as normal for that battery type you will be paying for one yourself and then seeing them in the small claims court. I think they are trying to wriggle out of the warranty BUT remember no battery is warrantied against misuse and they will claim sulphation is misuse because the customer never kept the battery fully charged. Likewise they may well claim that you have exceeded the battery's cyclic capacity so again it is misuse.

 

I think we need an indication of who is concerned - if the battery maker seemed keen on yellow parts in the past and uses a sun type logo I am not surprised at your experience.

[Keeping Up]

Just a footnote to add that some suppliers are better than others. I know that many people have had difficulties with warrantee claims because, as Tony says, the suppliers try to wriggle out of them on the basis that sulphation is normal and could be the result of bad treatment by the user.

 

Four years ago I bought a set of Yuasa domestic batteries from Halfords and they sulphated completely in less than 6 weeks; Halfords were totally helpful and gave me a full refund.

 

This year I replaced all 4 of my domestic batteries with new ones purchased through Adverc and supplied by Manbat. After less than a month of use they had lost more than half of their capacity to sulphation, despite my having invested a lot of diesel into ensuring that my charging regime was second to none (for example on no day was the engine ever stopped before the charge current had dropped to less than 2 Amps per battery). I telephoned Adverc; they arranged for a technical expert from Manbat to come out to the boat the next morning, which involved him travelling over 100 miles, to collect the suspect batteries and take them away for testing. He brought 4 other batteries (of a cheaper brand but which he had available in his office) to lend me in the meantime, and then the next day he returned with 4 brand-new batteries of the original type - having driven an additional 100 miles to collect them from their depot. After changing the batteries for me again, he departed saying to stay in touch to ensure that I continued to get good performance from them. Since then I have had follow-up phonecalls also from Adverc to check that everything was still OK, and saying that if these developed the same symptoms over the next few months it would be indicative that the latest redesign (early this year) may have resulted in a battery that wasn't fit for boat use in which case I had the option of a full refund or an exchange for another make of battery with cash adjustment as appropriate. Now THAT is what I call good service.

[smileypete]

Since then I have had follow-up phonecalls also from Adverc to check that everything was still OK, and saying that if these developed the same symptoms over the next few months it would be indicative that the latest redesign (early this year) may have resulted in a battery that wasn't fit for boat use in which case I had the option of a full refund or an exchange for another make of battery with cash adjustment as appropriate. Now THAT is what I call good service.

What sort of baty was it, a sealed/calcium one?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

What sort of baty was it, a sealed/calcium one?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

No it wasn't either sealed or calcium, it was one of the very latest Varta "Hobby" range. When delivered they looked great (high terminal voltage and very good specific gravity) and on paper their spec is fantastic, but after a couple of weeks they showed an SG of only 1215 when fully charged despite a terminal voltage of 12.8, the same on every cell of a 4-battery bank)

 

Interestingly ManBat reported that there have been several recent problems of premature sulphation on boats, but from a different range of batteries altogether - they asked me not to name them yet because they're still trying to find out what is wrong with them, and meanwhile they've withdrawn them from sale in the boat market, unlike the Varta where they're so new that ManBat don't know if it's a generic problem or merely a bad batch.

[Gibbo]

No it wasn't either sealed or calcium, it was one of the very latest Varta "Hobby" range. When delivered they looked great (high terminal voltage and very good specific gravity) and on paper their spec is fantastic, but after a couple of weeks they showed an SG of only 1215 when fully charged despite a terminal voltage of 12.8, the same on every cell of a 4-battery bank)

 

Low SG but normal battery voltage is a classic sign of sulphation. You obviously know this.

[NB Alnwick]

I'm trying to get a battery replaced under a so-called 5 year warranty. The supplier has asked me to provide a print out from a digital drop tester. Does anyone know where I could obtain this? I've tried Halfords, Kwik-Fit a local motor shop, Pennine Cruisers in Skipton, Silsden Boats on the LLC. I've obtained test results but no-one can print out. Is it usual to have to provide such a print-out or am I being led up the garden path? Would appreciate members views and experience of battery warranties. I'm currently cruising around West and North Yorkshire on the LLC.

 

That is exactly what we were told about three years ago when our batteries failed. They too were guaranteed for five years; they were very expensive with a brand name beginning with 'E' and bright yellow in colour.

 

We didn't pursue our claim and just re-cycled the expensive batteries in favour of four second hand batteries bought on this forum for £25 each. These second hand batteries have already surpassed the E******s in terms of life and performance.

 

 

>snip<

 

I think we need an indication of who is concerned - if the battery maker seemed keen on yellow parts in the past and uses a sun type logo I am not surprised at your experience.

 

That sounds rather familiar . . .

[cereal tiller]

i installed a new set of 5x 100 amp hour batteries in december 2010.

they were looked after by a "smart"charger until the end of march.

when the boat went into regular use i soon discovered that the batteries had severely limited amp hour capacity,in fact only 40%!

being aware that sometimes 20 or 30 charge cycles are often required to achieve full capacity,and that summer temperatures allow easier charging,i waited for an improvement.

 

last week i returned one of them to the retailer,who in turn,sent it of to the wholesaler.

 

i was informed by the wholesaler that the battery had been cycled too deeply,and it had only 30% of rated capacity.

so it looks like the bank of 5 batts. may be of scrap value only after only 8 weeks use!

 

this will be the 4th set of batteries,the previous ones lasted for 4/5 years

all charging/switching systems are in good order,maybe the batteries are from that "inscrutable"country?.

[Keeping Up]

Low SG but normal battery voltage is a classic sign of sulphation. You obviously know this.

 

Indeed I do.

 

What I don't know, however, is what the opposite would imply: an SG which seems higher than would be expected from the no-load terminal voltage. The new batteries seem to be performing OK according to the hydrometer, but are at the same time displaying when partially discharged a slightly lower terminal voltage than I would have expected to correspond with that SG. I wonder if it's the battery temperature that is misleading me, the graph of SG that I've been referring to assumes a bettery temp of 26.7^oC whereas I know they've been a lot colder than this when I've been measuring. Do you know how much to allow for SG change (or voltage change) per 10^oC for example?

 

(With apologies for the OP for hi-jacking the thread)

[Gibbo]

Indeed I do.

 

What I don't know, however, is what the opposite would imply: an SG which seems higher than would be expected from the no-load terminal voltage. The new batteries seem to be performing OK according to the hydrometer, but are at the same time displaying when partially discharged a slightly lower terminal voltage than I would have expected to correspond with that SG. I wonder if it's the battery temperature that is misleading me, the graph of SG that I've been referring to assumes a bettery temp of 26.7^oC whereas I know they've been a lot colder than this when I've been measuring. Do you know how much to allow for SG change (or voltage change) per 10^oC for example?

 

(With apologies for the OP for hi-jacking the thread)

 

Most hydrometers are temperature compensated so the reading shouldn't change. High SG batteries are used for cold climates, low SG batteries for warm climates. I wonder if you've been accidentally sold some batteries that have been filled for cold climates?

[Keeping Up]

Most hydrometers are temperature compensated so the reading shouldn't change. High SG batteries are used for cold climates, low SG batteries for warm climates. I wonder if you've been accidentally sold some batteries that have been filled for cold climates?

 

Interesting. If so, they should be ideal for use here in Manchester (which is where we are this weekend).

 

The SG is not unusually high when they're fully charged though, around 1260, so I suspect that's probably not the reason. It's just that after charging them as far as I can (ie until they only take about 1A per battery when presented with14.4v) and then taking an estimated 45% of their theoretical capacity from them (admittedly it's only a rough estimate by keeping a usage log, because I can only guess how much energy the fridge consumed during those 48 hours) the SG was 1210 (about 65% SOC according to the graph I'm using) but with an off-load voltage of 12.15 (about 45% SOC on the same graph). There's quite a big difference between 45% and 65%.

[Gibbo]

Got it. They have more acid in them than usual. Think about it.

[choogh]

Got it. They have more acid in them than usual. Think about it.

 

Is that good, or, bad ??

[Keeping Up]

Got it. They have more acid in them than usual. Think about it.

 

Brilliant! That seems to be the perfect explanation.

[smileypete]

Brilliant! That seems to be the perfect explanation.

I think there's probably a different explanation but I'm not going to say.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Keeping Up]

I think there's probably a different explanation but I'm not going to say.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Oh, do go on ....

[smileypete]

Oh, do go on ....

I wonder if they've changed the batt chemistry more towards 'hybrid calcium' to improve water loss and shelf life.

 

If so absorption charge voltage of 14.4V may not quite cut it when the batt is deeply discharged and/or a cold temperature. Would be interesting to find out what the gassing voltage is in practice.

 

OK it's not impossible that a major distributor could have filled the batt to the wrong level or with the wrong strength acid, but it's extremely unlikely, and so other reasons are more likely.

 

Something else to watch out for is that a battery kept on a cold surface is more likely to 'stratify', are the batts on a counter plate?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

Well, Johnson Controls (who make Varta batteries) say that the Hobby range is calcium based and has extra reserves of acid, thus it is maintenance free in normal useage (but not sealed). ie they have more acid in them than usual

[Keeping Up]

Something else to watch out for is that a battery kept on a cold surface is more likely to 'stratify', are the batts on a counter plate?

 

They're in a 6mm-thick plastic battery-box which sits on the bottom of the boat beside the engine bearer under the cruiser stern.

[smileypete]

Well, Johnson Controls (who make Varta batteries) say that the Hobby range is calcium based and has extra reserves of acid, thus it is maintenance free in normal useage (but not sealed). ie they have more acid in them than usual

Smells... like.... marketing to me.

 

If the design really is more like this then it's more likely to stratify if kept on a cold surface.

 

Anyway, I would still try and find out what the gassing voltage is.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited June 13, 2011 by smileypete

[Naughty Cal]

No it wasn't either sealed or calcium, it was one of the very latest Varta "Hobby" range. When delivered they looked great (high terminal voltage and very good specific gravity) and on paper their spec is fantastic, but after a couple of weeks they showed an SG of only 1215 when fully charged despite a terminal voltage of 12.8, the same on every cell of a 4-battery bank)

 

Interestingly ManBat reported that there have been several recent problems of premature sulphation on boats, but from a different range of batteries altogether - they asked me not to name them yet because they're still trying to find out what is wrong with them, and meanwhile they've withdrawn them from sale in the boat market, unlike the Varta where they're so new that ManBat don't know if it's a generic problem or merely a bad batch.

 

Hopefully you just had a bad batch. Our 105ah Vartas we bought in December seem to be performing really very well. We were very surprised when we managed 3 days moored up in Boston with no need to run the engine. Excellent performance from a "budget" battery.

[Gibbo]

Smells... like.... marketing to me.

 

If the design really is more like this then it's more likely to stratify if kept on a cold surface.

 

Anyway, I would still try and find out what the gassing voltage is.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Naaa, the difference he's getting between the measured SG and the expected SG for a normal battery only requires a few extra percent volume of electrolyte. It's not like we're talking an extra 4 pints or something silly.

 

ETA: Another way of looking at it:-

 

I concluded that a very simple explanation for the higher measured SG than would be expected is a simple case of the battery having more acid in it. The data from the manufacturers says those batteries have more acid in them. Seems pretty conclusive to me. There's no need to look for another explanation because it's right in front of you.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Gibbo