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What SHOULD the rules be for mooring


mayalld

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Ok, so we've gone round in circles for many days, arguing about what the rules are, and what powers BW has or does not have.

 

Much of that discussion centres on the fact that there are some holes in the law that a small number of people exploit to behave in a way that is arguably legal, but clearly at odds with what most people accept as a proper way to behave.

 

The discussion also touched on the fact that the rules are inconsistent as to moorers and CCers.

 

So, let us try to redesign the system in a way that CCers and moorers will find acceptable. Such a redesign might require primary legislation, which might be difficult (or might not be that difficult if the new Waterways Charity consults and gets agreement before proposing a Bill).

 

The discussions and the outcome of the Davies case have in some ways generated more heat than light, but there is something there that we might be able to use to build a simpler system.

 

Let me offer a suggested system, which would, I hope, form the skeleton of a system that would not be massively different to the present system, but with the anomalies and loopholes removed.

 

====

Terms

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The first thing is to define certain terms, in broadly similar ways to how they are defined now;

 

Place: A locality. This may be a village, a neighbourhood in a town or city, or a rural section of canal between two towns or villages. In order to avoid endless arguments, there will be a definitive list of places arrived at following consultations

 

Location: A single stretch of moorings, having a specific time limit for mooring (and in some cases other restrictionsas to who may use the mooring, for what purpose and how soon they may return) each change of time limit or restrictions marks a boundary between locations. The interposition of a stretch where no moorings are permitted also marks a new location. Each "Place" will contain one or more "Locations". In the absence of any signage, there will be a limit of 14 days at a mooring.

 

Home Mooring: A mooring set aside for the use of a particular moorer by the owner. The term includes short term private mooring arrangements.

 

Cruise: The period during which a boat is in use, from the time it leaves a home mooring to the time it returns. If a boat has no home mooring, it is said to be Continuously Cruising.

 

Rules

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Having defined our terms, we can now use them to lay out rules;

  1. Mooring at any particular "location" is restricted to the maximum time displayed. Boaters are however free to combine stays at multiple locations in a single place, up to the time limit for a place. Once they have used up their time at a location, the clock doesn't reset until they have been to a different place, or have commenced a new "Cruise"
  2. Mooring at any "Place" is limited to 14 days in total, which can consist of stays at multiple locations within that place. Having left a place to go to another place, the clock doesn't normally reset on that place until you have spent at least 12 hours moored in 7 different places, or you have started a new Cruise.
  3. In order to allow for necessary, and elective, changes of direction, a boater may elect to reset the clock on any "Place" once in any period of 3 months during a cruise without visiting the requisite number of intermediate places.

Now, leaving aside what the rules currently say, or what the Acts of Parliament allow today, are these rules "fair", and would they create a properly level playing field for moorers and CCers alike?

 

The intent is that each "Cruise" is taken in isolation, such that moorers are allowed to visit the same locations repeatedly, without falling foul of the rules, but that they can only do so if they actually return to their home mooring. Boaters with a paper mooring on the other side of the country that they never visit would have to obey the same rules as CCers.

Sounds a bit like the proposals for the L and S

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Perhaps they should ban mooring altogether. That would be a great leveler.

 

All those boats on the move continuously would do a fine dredging job.

 

Then they could use the revenue they raise in fines, for having the audacity to stop anywhere, to maintain the waterways... which would be ironic, cos that would favour those who keep moving anyway, not the continuous moorers, who would have been penalised unfairly.

 

(Just an alcohol fueled idea... or is it?).

 

Tone

 

Alcohol fueled idea!...at 6pm??.... Or have you got the flu again Tony?

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The infamous Mayall stratagem; start another thread. There'll be a poll along next, no doubt...

 

There are more people in the constituency in which I live than boats on the water. Need we really be so self important as to think this is an issue that will glean such support as to gain the parliamentary time to deal with it? Talking about it is all well and good but this is a transparent attempt to win an argument that most posters got bored with. Give it up Dave... please!

 

This is such a well thumped tub I'm happy to risk the wrath of the Great Ones.

 

Ptarmigan!

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Alcohol fueled idea!...at 6pm??.... Or have you got the flu again Tony?

 

No. Just had a great afternoon session. The local landlord in the St Vincent, and I, have just reinvented beer blending. We thoroughly recommend London Terrier (or should that be Yorkshire Pride?) and the Landlord of Doom is quite nice too (or should that be 'Timothy Taylor's Barred'?)

 

Tone

  • Greenie 1
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Perhaps they should ban mooring altogether. That would be a great leveler.

 

All those boats on the move continuously would do a fine dredging job.

 

Then they could use the revenue they raise in fines, for having the audacity to stop anywhere, to maintain the waterways... which would be ironic, cos that would favour those who keep moving anyway, not the continuous moorers, who would have been penalised unfairly.

 

(Just an alcohol fueled idea... or is it?).

 

Tone

This is what I cant stand about the canals-this petty carry-on-quite frankly if these ideas were implemented then that would be it, I am off it-it is supposed to be a leisure activity-we do not have to be on the canals at all-it is a choice-I mean u need your car for work-what do u need to be on the canals for??? If it is Nazi gestapo then I am NOT interested-I rather go to Europe where it is actually cheaper and not so padantic.It reminds me of Prisoner-I mean come on guys really-

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This is what I cant stand about the canals-this petty carry-on-quite frankly if these ideas were implemented then that would be it, I am off it-it is supposed to be a leisure activity-we do not have to be on the canals at all-it is a choice-I mean u need your car for work-what do u need to be on the canals for??? If it is Nazi gestapo then I am NOT interested-I rather go to Europe where it is actually cheaper and not so padantic.It reminds me of Prisoner-I mean come on guys really-

Well actually some people live on them, some with home moorings and some without, using their boats extensively whilst some rarely use their boats leaving them moored somewhere. There are lots of folk who use their boats within these extremes. From whatever section there is some concern at the congestion where folk want to moor and some contention as to what section is the main perpetrator and responsible for overstaying and/or bridge hopping.

 

I, I think like you, do not see that any timkering with the law, rules, regs, terms & conditions will make the least bit of difference to the situation or make things easier for BW. However, it is important that those who infringe on others enjoyment by abusing the intention of suchlike are at least aware of it and not doing so in ignorance. To which end this is a useful thread although I imagine the majority of infringers will not be reading this.

 

BW could help remedy the situation by handling overstaying better but I cannot see this happening unless doing so becomes an extra earner paying for the costs of enforcement a bit like traffic wardens covering their costs with parking fines/charges. Again I do not really want to see that as a development. Parking is cheaper without traffic wardens and there might be a few cars straddling yellow lines but usually traffic does not come to a halt. Do we want to see more time limited mooring on the canal as on the roads because it is an earner? IMHO no, leave everything well alone the current problems are what boating is.

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This is what I cant stand about the canals-this petty carry-on-quite frankly if these ideas were implemented then that would be it, I am off it-it is supposed to be a leisure activity-we do not have to be on the canals at all-it is a choice-I mean u need your car for work-what do u need to be on the canals for??? If it is Nazi gestapo then I am NOT interested-I rather go to Europe where it is actually cheaper and not so padantic.It reminds me of Prisoner-I mean come on guys really-

 

I think I would prefer Ireland. No licence fees at all in most cases, and certainly no lack of watter.

 

Tone

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I think I would prefer Ireland. No licence fees at all in most cases, and certainly no lack of watter.

 

Tone

 

Black and tan then I think they call it blending guiness with beer or is it harp? (With ref to another thread) :cheers:

 

We met when you were going up Bosley Locks on the Macc some time ago. I lock wheeled for you for a mention in dispatches :lol:

Edited by blodger
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Black and tan then I think they call it blending guiness with beer or is it harp? (With ref to another thread) :cheers:

 

Yes, black and tan was, in my day, Guinness and anything else in a lighter colour. Then there was light and mild, and mild and bitter.

 

All lost skills.

 

Tone

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I think the above is all too complimicated. What we want is for people who are moving on to not be hassled at all, but the rules to be clear enough so that those suspected of "not cruising" have to make plans to move on. The biggest issue is those who crawl up and down while still maintaining access to the same town (eg for work), but claim they are ccing. So my proposal is this: When a BW inspector suspects that boat without/away from a home mooring is not adhering to "the spirit of cruising" then they get formal notice to follow these rules. 14 days to move to another location at least 2 miles away (canal distance). 7 further days to move and remain at least 20 miles away (from original location). 7 further days to move and remain at least 50 miles away (from original location). [durations and distances are meant as examples.] Small print: Returning to a home mooring is always satisfactory, but if the boat subsequently moves away from the home mooring the above rules still in force. Distances measured by shortest canal route (to avoid someone claiming they did 3/4 a ring). The boat license holder can be asked to provide details showing that they adhere to these rules (eg phone through locations to BW) Once the 28 day period is up and they have complied with the rules, then the notice is withdrawn, but the boat number will be passed on to other BW areas so that any subsequent cc-abuse can be quickly spotted and a new notice given. Of course as others have pointed out, a requisite is that BW enforcement their rules properly.

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Am I the only one who does not think there is a big problem. As I am always on the move so I do not have favorite moorings, but then it does not bother me if I have to walk to get to the pub or shops. I prefer to be in the countryside most of the time with occasional visits to towns and cities. I am presently moored at Paddington Basin and have to say there are plenty of mooring spots even though I was told it would be difficult to find a mooring.

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Am I the only one who does not think there is a big problem. As I am always on the move so I do not have favorite moorings, but then it does not bother me if I have to walk to get to the pub or shops. I prefer to be in the countryside most of the time with occasional visits to towns and cities. I am presently moored at Paddington Basin and have to say there are plenty of mooring spots even though I was told it would be difficult to find a mooring.

 

I have never had a problem geting a mooring in Paddington basin(even when the winter moorers were berthed up), however, never managed to get a mooring at Camden, Islington, or Victoria Park.

PB is a brilliant location for Central London sightseeing and shopping,serviced by lots of tube lines and buses.

 

It's a bit of a wind tunnel though isn't it John!!!

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It's a bit of a wind tunnel though isn't it John!!!

 

It certainly is had problem mooring when I arrived not great on your own. Might be here for ages (sorry dave) as I will not move until there is no wind having watched some other boats trying to get out and turn, I don't want to be so much entertainment for other people!!!!! Will mention though have had my boat number taken every day since I arrived.........

 

Edited as normal for spelling

Edited by cotswoldsman
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This is what I cant stand about the canals-this petty carry-on-quite frankly if these ideas were implemented then that would be it, I am off it-it is supposed to be a leisure activity-we do not have to be on the canals at all-it is a choice-I mean u need your car for work-what do u need to be on the canals for??? If it is Nazi gestapo then I am NOT interested-I rather go to Europe where it is actually cheaper and not so padantic.It reminds me of Prisoner-I mean come on guys really-

 

You vill obey!! Ze rules haf been drawn up by our glorious leaders. Heil!! :captain:

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Am I the only one who does not think there is a big problem. As I am always on the move so I do not have favorite moorings, but then it does not bother me if I have to walk to get to the pub or shops. I prefer to be in the countryside most of the time with occasional visits to towns and cities. I am presently moored at Paddington Basin and have to say there are plenty of mooring spots even though I was told it would be difficult to find a mooring.

You are not alone

 

BW could help remedy the situation by handling overstaying better but I cannot see this happening unless doing so becomes an extra earner paying for the costs of enforcement a bit like traffic wardens covering their costs with parking fines/charges. Again I do not really want to see that as a development. Parking is cheaper without traffic wardens and there might be a few cars straddling yellow lines but usually traffic does not come to a halt. Do we want to see more time limited mooring on the canal as on the roads because it is an earner? IMHO no, leave everything well alone the current problems are what boating is.

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It seems to me that there are far too many people who are incapable of a 'live and let live' way of life. Almost all of the objections I have seen raised re- mooring simply have no adverse effect on fellow boaters, unless they choose to go out of their way to take issue with things. Having skimmed through this subject, I must say that more so than anybody else, I find myself agreeing largely with carlt. If you're moored out in the sticks, near no houses, or particular 'hotspots', what harm is that causing? As somebody else pointed out, this would be on the condition that the towpath isn't swamped with said boaters belongings.

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You are not alone

 

BW could help remedy the situation by handling overstaying better but I cannot see this happening unless doing so becomes an extra earner paying for the costs of enforcement a bit like traffic wardens covering their costs with parking fines/charges. Again I do not really want to see that as a development. Parking is cheaper without traffic wardens and there might be a few cars straddling yellow lines but usually traffic does not come to a halt. Do we want to see more time limited mooring on the canal as on the roads because it is an earner? IMHO no, leave everything well alone the current problems are what boating is.

It's all coming see BWs proposals for the Lee and Stort

The consultation closes on the 31st if you object to this approach to running our waterway submit a response even if you dont currently boat on the Lee and Stort

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It's all coming see BWs proposals for the Lee and Stort

The consultation closes on the 31st if you object to this approach to running our waterway submit a response even if you dont currently boat on the Lee and Stort

I have responded to the consultation with a few lines as an occasional visiting boater:-

 

I realise that there have been particular congestion and overstaying problems in the area necessitating BW doing something to remedy. However, I would hate to see it extended nationally and so in fairness it is over the top for this area.

What needs stamping out is the overstaying so I am in favour of making some of the moorings 7 day and better enforcement with penalties. However, I think 20 in advance and 40 after the event for each extra day is too much and should be 10 before or after even if this does not fully cover BWs costs; Every endeavour should be made towards cost effectiveness, not maximising returns for having to do it and with an eye to being able to replicate the scheme throughout the network.

It is good that you are acknowledging that even those with home moorings are contributing to the problem and that it is not just Ccer/Cmers.

I am not in favour of the zoning and mooring limits in each zone but think that such should be the threat to implement if tackling the overstaying more vigorously with penalties does not work

 

I'll probably get shot down for that now :blush:

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IMHO I thing Dave is nearly spot on here but regardless of the rules set they need to be enforced. At the moment it feels like the Peoples Front or Judea sitting around a table all arguing what to do with the Romans but no one ever does it.

 

If BW strictly enforced the rules they have already then I think there may be more people losing their boats but they seam to give warnings and more warning, then a last warning and ….. Many areas are worse than others in allowing people to break the rules. Talking to BW Around Milton Keynes they have a very low rate of overstaying yes in Harefield and around Denham Deep lock there are people that haven’t moved for months and the Only BW person I see is a engineer looking at the state of the locks.

 

I don’t know how to police the system maybe tags on roofs which are read by sensors on bridges with a “Remove the tag and loose your boat penalty”. The rules are fair but the penalties need reflect the policies.

 

Regards

 

Bob B

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IMHO I thing Dave is nearly spot on here but regardless of the rules set they need to be enforced. At the moment it feels like the Peoples Front or Judea sitting around a table all arguing what to do with the Romans but no one ever does it.

 

If BW strictly enforced the rules they have already then I think there may be more people losing their boats but they seam to give warnings and more warning, then a last warning and ….. Many areas are worse than others in allowing people to break the rules. Talking to BW Around Milton Keynes they have a very low rate of overstaying yes in Harefield and around Denham Deep lock there are people that haven’t moved for months and the Only BW person I see is a engineer looking at the state of the locks.

 

I don’t know how to police the system maybe tags on roofs which are read by sensors on bridges with a “Remove the tag and loose your boat penalty”. The rules are fair but the penalties need reflect the policies.

 

Regards

 

Bob B

 

 

I am not sure I want to be on your canal system

Overstay by one day because of some domestic emergency and return to find your boat has been taken to the compound or nuked!

How would you pay for it and if you had the money wouldnt it be better spent on maintenance?

Edited by Phoenix_V
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I am not sure I want to be on your canal system

Overstay by one day because of some domestic emergency and return to find your boat has been taken to the compound or nuked!

How would you pay for it and if you had the money wouldnt it be better spent on maintenance?

 

One does see lots of boats, not at their home mooring if they have one, lived on or not, moored up for periods in excess of two weeks. If it is not a 'honeyspot' or congested water eg Llangolen it does not neccessarily present that much of a problem. However, because there are problems in places because of this then the overstaying needs addressing everywhere not just here and there ad hoc.

 

I do not see how it can be addressed without their being some sort of financial penalty as an incentive though I recognise that such will not be as much of a deterrent to the wealthy.

 

I cannot see that new rules, regs, terms & conditions or much else will change things albeit that the ignorance about what the current 'rules' are needs remedying if there is an expectation folk abide by them :lol:

 

One of the problems now is that transgressors get away with it now because they comply when challenged. I would hate to see this soft approach disappear. The 'policing' needs to be stepped up/accelerated to be effective but not necessarily with more draconian measures IMHO :angry:

 

BW have a duty now to enforce and has its patrol officers I do not think th 20 & 40 Pounds per day overstaying charge proposed in the about to end consultation is justified to cover enforcement costs or fair; 10 would be more acceptable again IMO

Edited by blodger
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If I have a problem and need to overstay, I ring BW and inform them. That's all you need to do, in all fairness, they are helpful regarding these matters. So posting silly remarks about coming back and finding your boat gone is not helpful. As for the present rules, in my mind, there is not much wrong with them. I do believe BW are not enforcing them strictly enough, and this should be corrected and they should be made aware of the fact, that they are not doing the job to a satisfactory standard. However, the real problem stems from ignorant, selfish boaters with seemingly no morals whatsoever. I don't believe the rules need to be changed, I believe some boaters need to be educated (polite mode).

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