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Continuous cruising case - liveaboard homes at risk


Flossie007

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There's nothing to stop people using these services,I have a library card,My friends girl goes to sure start and nursery and will be going to the local school in september,she also uses the health center they are on a CC licence and have no problems they also get housing benefit in the winter for their moorings.

You can send your kid to school in an area where you're not officially resident? If she's eligible for benefits it may just be that she's eligible for CT benefit?

 

I know one guy who managed to claim housing benefit as a CCer - licence paid and winter mooring fees. But he had a local connection, so they would have had an obligation to house him if he'd been forced onto land, so it made financial sense for them, even if he wasn't always in their area. He did know his way around the system, mind.

Edited by ymu
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You can send your kid to school in an area where you're not officially resident? If she's eligible for benefits it may just be that she's eligible for CT benefit?

 

I know one guy who managed to claim housing benefit as a Car - licence paid and winter mooring fees. But he had a local connection, so they would have had an obligation to house him if he'd been forced onto land, so it made financial sense for them, even if he wasn't always in their area. He did know his way around the system, mind.

No they are only eligible in the winter for HB for a winter mooring,,they have no local connection to the area apart from liking the area and just going up and down a stretch of the coventry canal. You must be able to send them to school as she is going in september and they have no land address.

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No they are only eligible in the winter for HB for a winter mooring,,they have no local connection to the area apart from liking the area and just going up and down a stretch of the coventry canal. You must be able to send them to school as she is going in september and they have no land address.

There must be more to it than that. Else anyone could just put their kids down for any school in the country - which they can't. Some council or other went as far as hiring private detectives to follow parents and make sure that they were genuine residents.

 

Might come under the special rules for travellers, I guess.

 

You're eligible anywhere for housing benefit, regardless of local connection - and she would only be eligible in the winter because she's got no mooring costs any other time. Although she should be able to get the licence paid year round.

 

The local connection matters if you have no means to get private accommodation to claim housing benefit on in the first place. The council is only obliged to find accommodation for someone with a local connection. It's how a lot of military fall through the net - if they've been stationed abroad, there is no local connection and they can't get any help with accommodation, unless they have the cash to sort out their own deposit and rent until the claim is processed.

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There must be more to it than that. Else anyone could just put their kids down for any school in the country - which they can't. Some council or other went as far as hiring private detectives to follow parents and make sure that they were genuine residents.

 

Might come under the special rules for travellers, I guess.

 

You're eligible anywhere for housing benefit, regardless of local connection - and she would only be eligible in the winter because she's got no mooring costs any other time. Although she should be able to get the licence paid year round.

 

The local connection matters if you have no means to get private accommodation to claim housing benefit on in the first place. The council is only obliged to find accommodation for someone with a local connection. It's how a lot of military fall through the net - if they've been stationed abroad, there is no local connection and they can't get any help with accommodation, unless they have the cash to sort out their own deposit and rent until the claim is processed.

Yes but they dont live on boats, if they live in a house then the local school will apply to them and their mail will show where they live so they cant send their kids to any school they want.You cant get your licence paid all year round if you CC because you SHOULD be travelling through different local authorities and some pay it some dont, you have to get a letter off BW to say you are living in the area ,but BW wont give one because they are not landlords,Which is why they dont like HB paid direct to them from the council as it puts them in the landlord category and they said they are not landlords, if you have a mooring you live on you have more chance of getting HB because the council find it cheaper and they dont have to house you.The hard part is getting a letter off BW to say you live on the mooring as they have no planning for dwellers over a certain amount of days.If anyone coming back from service over seas has a local connection be it mother father sister or brother they can apply for housing but it does not mean they will get it. I would imagine most service men have at least one relative that would serve as a local connection but they come low on the list for being single :angry:

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The guy I knew was claiming for his licence fee - but there's a lot of waterway in that council area, so he may have got what he needed from BW.

 

The problem for ex-military is being excluded altogether - not just the long waiting time to get anywhere permanent. With a local connection, they're obliged to find temporary accommodation for them, although that isn't necessarily much help..

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Interesting that although the KandA site does not suit your particularly narrow mindset (how could it?) both anecdotal evidence and that of the webmaster who monitors traffic show that it is a much used and valuable resource. I consider to be one of its strengths that you seem to fear its words to the extent you appear to.

My last word on the subject (oh god I hope so).

I do not "fear its words". Quite the contrary, if I were the BW team being opposed by this I would look at it and say "Bunch of rank ameteurs, good". The issue for me is that the tone is frothing at the mouth tabloid and will alienate just about everyone except the converted who as we know are not worth preaching to. It cries out not to be taken seriously. What is it intended to achieve? It claims to be a resource for all users of the western K&A but the content is entirely concerned with "liveaboard boaters without moorings" and personally rubbishing individuals (in an inept and juvenile manner) such as Ms Ash and any local politicians (elected representatives of the local community)who are not in favour of the status quo. I am in fact part of the traffic through the site so I wouldn't read the number of hits as an indication of enjoyment of the site or support of its aims (what are its aims?) To me and I must say to others as well, it is a repository of unconstructive flying spittle rants which could well be the best means available for isolating the "liveaboard boaters without moorings" from the rest of the boating community and the local land communities. Ms Ash must be hugging herself with delight at each new verbal fart that issues from it.

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The issue for me is that the tone is frothing at the mouth tabloid and will alienate just about everyone except the converted who as we know are not worth preaching to.

But this is exactly what your tone comes across as.

 

I sometimes wonder, considering the strength of your objection to your fellow K&A boaters, and your home location, why you don't just move your boat somewhere less congested.

 

You said yourself, on the rare occasion you ventured on to other waters, that you were amazed at how less crowded they were so why punish yourself and spoil your boating experience by mooring on a canal that causes you so much stress?

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I suppose (head down!), it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for BW to add an amount equivalent to a minimum average council tax to the licences of everybody making a CC declaration, then to redistribute that in some way around the councils likely to be providing the bulk of the services they might use. (OK, OK, how do you apportion that, but it's an idea!....).

 

 

I've been suggesting this for ages in several threads and I have been rubbished for it. It would be relativly easy to distribute amongst riparian councils.

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My last word on the subject (oh god I hope so).

I do not "fear its words". Quite the contrary, if I were the BW team being opposed by this I would look at it and say "Bunch of rank ameteurs, good". The issue for me is that the tone is frothing at the mouth tabloid and will alienate just about everyone except the converted who as we know are not worth preaching to. It cries out not to be taken seriously. What is it intended to achieve? It claims to be a resource for all users of the western K&A but the content is entirely concerned with "liveaboard boaters without moorings" and personally rubbishing individuals (in an inept and juvenile manner) such as Ms Ash and any local politicians (elected representatives of the local community)who are not in favour of the status quo. I am in fact part of the traffic through the site so I wouldn't read the number of hits as an indication of enjoyment of the site or support of its aims (what are its aims?) To me and I must say to others as well, it is a repository of unconstructive flying spittle rants which could well be the best means available for isolating the "liveaboard boaters without moorings" from the rest of the boating community and the local land communities. Ms Ash must be hugging herself with delight at each new verbal fart that issues from it.

 

Apart from agreeing wholeheartedly with Carl's comment above that you are the one doing the tabloid frothing I can add the following;

 

You are wrong.

 

Simple as that. In fact would I contend that your statement about reading the site is a lie. Or you are simply making statements at odds with reality to try and convince people of your narrow and bigoted point of view.

 

The website, and the individuals who contribute to it and maintain it have achieved a number of goals.

 


  •  
  • They have made links with and defused the animosity of Bathampton and Claverton Parish Councils who have distanced themselves from Sally Ash's original intentions.
     
  • They co-ordinated a response to the mooring consultations that have modified BW's stated aims.
     
  • They have successfully forged links with Wiltshire County Council and its officers with responsibility for most of the K and A. They have the support of the Equalities Officer for the council and have been successful in ensuring that boater's needs are taken into account in WCC's policy towards travellers.
     
  • They have been successful in ensuring that boater's needs are taken into account in BANES' policy towards travellers.
     
  • They have the gained the support of the MP for Wansdyke, Dan Norris
     
  • They have ensured unaffiliated boater's representation on the Mooring Strategies Committee
     
  • They disseminate information to and give support to those boaters who do not follow the machinations and discussions with BW and the elected representatives.
     
  • They have the wholehearted support of the sole boater's representative on the K and A Partnership Committee who will represent their point of view.
     
  • They have collated and collected the legal opinions of everyone involved in the Paul Davies case including BW, the court, NABO and Paul Davies solicitor and barrister and made that available to anyone else threatened by Section 8 notices.
     
  • They have made all these resources available to the boaters on the River Lea and other places where BW are trying to 'divide and rule'
     
  • They have put up robust and effective challenges to Sally Ash whereever she attempts to make her case through rhetoric and incorrect 'facts' - for instance in the matter of overstaying notices and in the matter of complaints from other waterway users (I can provide you with URLs as you seem to have missed this in your skimming of the site)
     

 

 

Not bad for a bunch of 'Cbeebies", 'verbal farts', 'rank amateurs' and 'frothing at the mouth tabloid' and all your other peurile and content-free insults.

 

Grow up, do.

 

As i recall your down on the K and A liveaboards stems from a fight you had over a mooring some years ago, probably with someone who's not here any more. I suggest you move on, either in spirit, or literally.

Edited by Chris Pink
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I've been suggesting this for ages in several threads and I have been rubbished for it. It would be relativly easy to distribute amongst riparian councils.

The problem is that the Council Tax is a tax on property, differing very little from the old Rates.

 

Now a local income tax, with a central pool that travellers pay into, might be the fairest scheme of all...which is precisely why it will never be introduced.

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If you look at BWML's fees for residential moorings at Kings Marina it states that "fees will include a Council Tax contribution to Newark and Sherwood DC". I enquired about residential moorings at Priory (Bedford) a couple of years ago and was told £1000 council tax per residential boat was levied by Bedford Council.

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If you look at BWML's fees for residential moorings at Kings Marina it states that "fees will include a Council Tax contribution to Newark and Sherwood DC". I enquired about residential moorings at Priory (Bedford) a couple of years ago and was told £1000 council tax per residential boat was levied by Bedford Council.

But the vast majority of liveaboards are not on residential moorings.

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The problem is that the Council Tax is a tax on property, differing very little from the old Rates.

 

Now a local income tax, with a central pool that travellers pay into, might be the fairest scheme of all...which is precisely why it will never be introduced.

 

How about the poll tax? What was wrong with that?

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How about the poll tax? What was wrong with that?

Ahh that would be the one where the rich paid less and the poor paid more. :rolleyes:

 

A local tax based on income would be one where everyone paid the same, proportionate to their wealth.

 

Rich people would never let that one through.

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A local tax based on income would be one where everyone paid the same, proportionate to their wealth.

 

A tin of beans costs everyone the same whether they are rich or poor. Likewise a litre of petrol, or a loaf of bread, a guitar string, PC keyboard, bag of coal or a length of wire.

 

Why should the provision of local services be any different?

 

Broken finger edit.

Edited by Gibbo
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The actual legal psoition on boating and council tax is summed up brillainty here:

 

According to Section 3 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992, Council Tax is levied on domestic property. A domestic property is defined as a property that is a dwelling. Whilst a boat can be a dwelling, it cannot in law be a property. The Council Tax Guidance Manual (2008), produced by the Valuation Tribunal Service’s Legal and Publications Advisory Committee states in Section 8.2.5: “Boats are generally held to be chattels in law and are therefore not liable to Council Tax. However, liability may arise in respect of the mooring occupied by a boat”. Therefore, a boat in itself will not attract liability for Council Tax. This is regardless of whether or not the boat is used as a dwelling. Council Tax may be levied on a mooring if the mooring has planning permission for permanent residential use.

 

http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/wordpress/council-tax-and-liveaboard-boaters/

 

Tone

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A tin of beans costs everyone the same whether they are rich or poor. Likewise a litre of petrol, or a loaf of bread, a guitar string, PC keyboard, bag of coal or a length of wire.

 

But a tin of beans doesn't cost the same to everyone. It costs me about 0.01% of my income, it costs a premiership footballer about 0.0001%. ;)

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Sorry Tony, that link is pure puerile cBeebies tabloid froth.

 

In your opinion maybe, but I think not. There are other cases documented where a boat is described as a chattel and a chattel is not a property thus cannot be liable for council tax.

 

Tone

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Why should the provision of local services be any different?

 

Because, quite simply, they are different.

 

Essential services should be priced according to wealth so that the poor can afford that can of beans.

 

I don't propose to pursue this argument, though, because our philosophies are so far apart that you will never understand my viewpoint.

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Of interest?:

 

 

Council Tax Manual - Practice Note 7 - Appendix D - Circumstances where boats used wholly as living accommodation may or may not be regarded as part of the dwelling

 

Example 4

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land.

 

4.19 Residential caravans and boats

4.19.1 As indicated in CTM:PN 7 a caravan and its pitch and a boat and its mooring will together constitute a dwelling where the caravan or boat is the sole or main residence of an individual and the tests of rateable occupation are met. Accordingly all caravans and boats which satisfy these criteria are to be ascribed a band. When considering whether the tests of rateable occupation are met particular attention should be given to the transient nature of some boats and caravans before a band is ascribed including the caravan or boat.

 

Tone

Edited by canaldrifter
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Because, quite simply, they are different.

 

Essential services should be priced according to wealth so that the poor can afford that can of beans.

 

I don't propose to pursue this argument, though, because our philosophies are so far apart that you will never understand my viewpoint.

The poll tax was particularly iniquitous because a cramped over-crowded slum was liable to pay more tax for the same services as a mansion with fewer occupants.

 

Morality aside, the rich need the poor to be able to afford that can of beans, because an economy with too many workers who can't afford to buy what they make is an economy which will nosedive. It's the reason the 1930s New Deal introduced unionisation, collective bargaining and welfare - they realised that one cause of the crisis was that wages had been driven down too low to sustain consumer demand, so they took steps to prevent it happening again.

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The poll tax was particularly iniquitous because a cramped over-crowded slum was liable to pay more tax for the same services as a mansion with fewer occupants.

 

Of course, they're welcome to get off their arses, work hard, and buy a bigger, less cramped, slum. :lol:

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Of course, they're welcome to get off their arses, work hard, and buy a bigger, less cramped, slum. :lol:

OMG, you've done it now. It was only 5 pages, it'll now turn into 39 pages of links, quotes and gloats. What have you done!?!

Roger

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