Are Local Councils planning on charging boaters tax.

[davidk65]

Does any one know or have any information on the actions (if any) of local councils who apparently are seeking to impose council tax on those live aboards who have permanent/semi permanent canal moorings e.g. as members of a club.

I have heard that in the situation as described above i.e. club moorings, councils have/are imposing council tax and are going further and imposing a blanket charge, not just on the live aboards, but on all other club members who have moorings belonging to the same club.

In other words councils are seeking a means to redress the shortfall in their revenue by treating such boat owners has having a second home and charging them council tax.

Is any of this true? Has it happened and where?

 

DavidK

[casper ghost]

I haven't heard of it...

Gary

[carlt]

Leisure boaters will get a council tax bill about the same time as caravanners and motorhome owners.

 

Campers all over the country are quaking in fear, as the "Tent detector vans" hit the streets.

[NB Lola]

You say "apparently". Where is this information apparent?

[Donald Gilchrist]

And the date is?

[davidk65]

You say "apparently". Where is this information apparent?

Hi.

I am using the word "apparently" in the sense of; "according to the information I have". Such information as I have has come from a reported conversation with a local councilor, his council has a canal that runs through the council area.

I am trying to establish if there is any factual knowledge or experience of this actually happening or is it something that is being considered.

Councils are being hit hard, as we all are, by the current financial situation so is this the kind of thing they would do or are doing around the system? I hope not!

[sociable_hermit]

I think some Councils levy Council Tax on residential boaters, and some don't. It depends on whether they think the lowest band revenue they'd get is worth the expense of collecting it, given all the hassle of finding and identifying boats and their owners.

 

I don't know of any such tax on non-residential boats and I suspect such a move would be illegal.

 

I wouldn't mind the Councils doing something like this if they promised to spend all the money raised from boaters, and some of the money raised from the rest of their taxpayers, on their canals

[Grumpy Bear]

A useful statement on council tax and boaters can be found here:

 

clicky

[carlt]

My son's just had a CT bill for his Playmobil Pirate Ship.

[canaldrifter]

That's how Dennis Norris won his case on the Driffield. The council tried to evict them because he didn't have planning permission, yet they were taking £1,000 per year off them in council tax.

 

They can't have it both ways.

 

One greeny for common sense rules for a change.

 

press here

 

Tone

[carlt]

 

One greeny for common sense rules for a change.

 

Stop giving yourself greenies, then admitting it!

[canaldrifter]

Stop giving yourself greenies, then admitting it!

 

No. no. I'm not Dave Mayall.

 

The greeny was for the common sense ruling not the common sense post. (I still await greenies for that... )

 

Tone

[ymu]

AFAIK, if you're a resident - with the right to send any children you may have to a local school, use the local library, be treated like every other tax-paying local - then you are liable to pay Council Tax (even if noone's ever asked you to before).

 

If you're not a resident, then you're not liable for Council Tax - and cannot access those services - and the Council is paid via the BW licence for the services provided to passing boaters/tourists and you owe them not a penny, whether they ask for it or not.

 

Expect councils to be more inquisitive about liveaboards with moorings now that they're faced with impossible financial decisions.

[carlt]

 

The greeny was for the common sense ruling not the common sense post. (I still await greenies for that... )

 

Actually I gave you a greenie for the excellent link.

 

Always nice to see common sense, in bureaucracy.

[canaldrifter]

Actually I gave you a greenie for the excellent link.

 

Always nice to see common sense, in bureaucracy.

 

 

Tone

[BEngo]

The legal position on boats is quite clear- in law boats are a chattel. Council tax cannot be charged on the possession of a chattel.

 

Property (land, houses etc.) are not a chattel so council tax can be charged. However in the case of a mooring it is only classed as property if there is a right for a person to occupy a specific piece of land as a residence. If there is no such right then a nservice is being provided

 

BW mooring agreements (and any sensible marina owner's mooring agreement) give you the right only to moor your boat at a place (perhaps Cowroast towpath, Grove Marina)- not a specific location (say 500-572 ft from the top gate of Cowroast lock along the canal toward Tring or berth number 5 on a map for a marina) within the place and will contain the right for the mooring to be moved. This, apart from making it possible to manage linear moorings to best effect, ensures that the Council cannot charge CT. The Marina operator pays business rates on the Marina and I believe BW make a contribution to Government in lieu of Rates.

 

If however you have a residential mooring, with Planning Permision in a specific location or a cruising mooring in a specific location then you are liable for Band A Council tax ( all boats are deemed to be Band A). When you are not on your mooring (cruising, out for blacking etc.) you can reclaim (pro-rata) the CT for the period when you are not on your specific mooring.

 

RBOA are experts on this and can provide the References in the relevant Acts which set out the requirements and the banding- join them if appropriate and use this information to help in your dealings with the local Council. They will also help you with the VAT position. I think a residental mooring charge for a lease with a right to a specific location is treated for VAT purposes in the same way as a rented house rent.

 

If you do end up paying CT in a Marina then the operator should see a Business Rates reduction because part of his business has now become chargeable to CT and you can't pay Business Rates and CT on the same bit of property. (Mixed use properties can pay some CT and some BR). That may enable you to negotiate a mooring charge reduction!

 

N

[canaldrifter]

That is spot on as I understand the situation.

 

Tone

[Dominic M]

The legal position on boats is quite clear- in law boats are a chattel. Council tax cannot be charged on the possession of a chattel.

 

Property (land, houses etc.) are not a chattel so council tax can be charged. However in the case of a mooring it is only classed as property if there is a right for a person to occupy a specific piece of land as a residence. If there is no such right then a nservice is being provided

 

BW mooring agreements (and any sensible marina owner's mooring agreement) give you the right only to moor your boat at a place (perhaps Cowroast towpath, Grove Marina)- not a specific location (say 500-572 ft from the top gate of Cowroast lock along the canal toward Tring or berth number 5 on a map for a marina) within the place and will contain the right for the mooring to be moved. This, apart from making it possible to manage linear moorings to best effect, ensures that the Council cannot charge CT. The Marina operator pays business rates on the Marina and I believe BW make a contribution to Government in lieu of Rates.

 

If however you have a residential mooring, with Planning Permision in a specific location or a cruising mooring in a specific location then you are liable for Band A Council tax ( all boats are deemed to be Band A). When you are not on your mooring (cruising, out for blacking etc.) you can reclaim (pro-rata) the CT for the period when you are not on your specific mooring.

 

RBOA are experts on this and can provide the References in the relevant Acts which set out the requirements and the banding- join them if appropriate and use this information to help in your dealings with the local Council. They will also help you with the VAT position. I think a residental mooring charge for a lease with a right to a specific location is treated for VAT purposes in the same way as a rented house rent.

 

If you do end up paying CT in a Marina then the operator should see a Business Rates reduction because part of his business has now become chargeable to CT and you can't pay Business Rates and CT on the same bit of property. (Mixed use properties can pay some CT and some BR). That may enable you to negotiate a mooring charge reduction!

 

N

That is my understanding as well. However, I believe the current view is being put to the test at Hartford Marina in Huntingdon by the local authority.

[sueb]

AFAIK, if you're a resident - with the right to send any children you may have to a local school, use the local library, be treated like every other tax-paying local - then you are liable to pay Council Tax (even if noone's ever asked you to before).

 

If you're not a resident, then you're not liable for Council Tax - and cannot access those services - and the Council is paid via the BW licence for the services provided to passing boaters/tourists and you owe them not a penny, whether they ask for it or not.

 

Expect councils to be more inquisitive about liveaboards with moorings now that they're faced with impossible financial decisions.

Not strictly true - see BEngo's post

Sue

[ymu]

Aye - proper informative. Cheers.