Fuel injector pipes

[flatplane8]

As part of the general tidy up of our engine, I'm planning to fit refurbished or new injectors and tidy up the pipes from the pump to the injectors. The current pipes look to be small bore copper, with nuts and double flared ends. Is this the case, or is there more involved here? Is the bore size of the pipe important (would guess it might affect injector opening and closing?)?

 

Do the pipes need to be of equal length?looking on the internet, it does seem that equal length pipes are best.

 

Finally, could the existing ones be re-used, possibly by annealing them and then bending to shape?

 

For context, I'm not sure of the state of our engine, I suspect its a bitsa as it was sourced from Waddingtons in 1986 after the original broke its crank. We have a plunger water pump, but de-compressors on the cylinder heads. It starts by hand ok and seems to run fine enough. It is missing some parts, like the cold start toggle Mike Askin describes elsewhere.

 

I figure if I clean it up, tidy up some external components and see how it continues to run then we can decide if it needs replacing or not.

Edited January 25, 2011 by flatplane8

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Finally, could the existing ones be re-used, possibly by annealing them and then bending to shape?

 

<snip>

 

Yes. Best way to describe this is hang them up then heat them until they go a shiny copper colour in the flame. That will be a dull red, but it shows up better this way.

 

Make sure that you don't have sweated on nipples before you do this, or they may end up on the floor

 

Richard

 

Hand stuff is copper

[Timleech]

Yes. Best way to describe this is hang them up then heat them until they go a shiny copper colour in the flame. That will be a dull red, but it shows up better this way.

 

Make sure that you don't have sweated on nipples before you do this, or they may end up on the floor

 

Richard

 

Hand stuff is copper

Injector pipes, even on older engines, are usually thick-walled steel with special olives, though some older pipes may have the ends formed or brazed on the pipe.

The leak-off pipes may well be copper, with (single) flared ends. I'd expect copper to work-harden too quickly to be satisfactory for injector pipes.

 

Tim

[Sir Nibble]

Yes. Best way to describe this is hang them up then heat them until they go a shiny copper colour in the flame. That will be a dull red, but it shows up better this way.

 

Make sure that you don't have sweated on nipples before you do this, or they may end up on the floor

 

Richard

 

Hand stuff is copper

Used to be a regular job to avoid the pipes work hardening and splitting.

It's important to use injector pipe and only injector pipe.

[RLWP]

Injector pipes, even on older engines, are usually thick-walled steel with special olives, though some older pipes may have the ends formed or brazed on the pipe.

The leak-off pipes may well be copper, with (single) flared ends. I'd expect copper to work-harden too quickly to be satisfactory for injector pipes.

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim. I'm pretty sure the Kelvin ones are copper, but as you say, it's important to know what you are dealing with.

 

Richard

[frangar]

Mt JP2M ones are steel...both the injector and the spill rail. The ends can be reflared using a brake pipe flaring tool but you need a strong one cos its tougher than the copper used on most brake systems....(How do I know this? )

 

There was some injector pipes for a JP3 on Ebay a while ago....You could try to see if Baldock has any or try

 

http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-JP-JK-and-JS-engine-spares/

 

He has more than listed on his website...you may need the part nos to help him out...he seems a nice guy and I have been happy with what I have brought from him.

 

HTH

 

Gareth

 

edited for missing words.....

Edited January 25, 2011 by frangar

[dave moore]

Hi

Kelvin injector pipes are 6mm steel with a 2mm bore, you should be able to source some from an injector specialist. I got mine from RN diesel (nothing to do with the engines) in Cable St, Wolverhampton. Copper won't stand the pressures involved. Kelvin specialst Dick Goble may also be able to help, pm me for his numbers if interested.

Good luck

Dave

[flatplane8]

Thanks for the replies all, the pipes, including the spare ones I have certainly look like copper. The leak-off pipes are also copper.

 

I've found this site, is this the sort of pipe and fittings to use?

 

They offer two internal diameters 1.5mm or 2mm. I'm guessing 1.5mm would suit given the low power of the engine. The fittings are metric though, I would've thought vintage Lister stuff to be imperial, but I know all sorts of thread types are possible.....

 

I'm going to try and get some refurbished injectors so I can verify the pipe/fittings with the supplier.

[MoominPapa]

They offer two internal diameters 1.5mm or 2mm. I'm guessing 1.5mm would suit given the low power of the engine. The fittings are metric though, I would've thought vintage Lister stuff to be imperial, but I know all sorts of thread types are possible.....

The first person to make viable diesel injection kit was that nice Mr Bosch, hence even old ones have, I think, metric threads.

 

MP.

[frangar]

Another company that may be able to help both with the injectors and maybe the pipe is Peter Slater Injection Services in Scunthorpe:

 

http://www.pslaterfie.co.uk/index.php

 

Hes going to refurb my spare JP injectors when Im in one place long enough to get them sent back!!

 

Gareth

[flatplane8]

Another company that may be able to help both with the injectors and maybe the pipe is Peter Slater Injection Services in Scunthorpe:

 

http://www.pslaterfie.co.uk/index.php

 

Hes going to refurb my spare JP injectors when Im in one place long enough to get them sent back!!

 

Gareth

 

Ah good, I was going to see about getting some new/refurbished injectors from them, so will ask about pipe at the same time.

[Timleech]

The first person to make viable diesel injection kit was that nice Mr Bosch, hence even old ones have, I think, metric threads.

 

MP.

 

Apart from some 'self-made' by engine manufacturers, such as Crossley (and no, it wasn't one of the better features of their engines )

 

Tim

[monkeyhanger]

I've used CJ Diesels in Isleworth for work on my JP2 injector pump, AND they have some injector spares. I've also had exceptional work done at Phelps Transport in Hackney, which is right on my doorstep. They are on the edge of the River Lea, too, handy if you want to take your boat for a little trip. Tel no 0208 533 3399

[Proper Job]

............I figure if I clean it up, tidy up some external components and see how it continues to run then we can decide if it needs replacing or not.

And replace it with what!!!!

 

Give it a bit of love and TLC..... you'll never need another engine

 

BTW - my JP3 has steel injector pipes and copper spill/return pipework

[flatplane8]

And replace it with what!!!!

 

Give it a bit of love and TLC..... you'll never need another engine

 

BTW - my JP3 has steel injector pipes and copper spill/return pipework

 

Well, I am hoping it'll be ok, hence wanting to give it the 'best chance'. Some people have said its a bit small for the boat, but then when Misterton was motorised in 1948, a JP3M was deemed sufficient and the current engine was only put in in 1986 after the original broke a crank. If it did break I'd look at either another larger vintage engine (Gardner 5LW or maybe a Kelvin K3/4) or the new JCB marine engine.

 

I'd like to get this one running as well as it can, as it should be up to the job.

[Timleech]

Well, I am hoping it'll be ok, hence wanting to give it the 'best chance'. Some people have said its a bit small for the boat, but then when Misterton was motorised in 1948, a JP3M was deemed sufficient and the current engine was only put in in 1986 after the original broke a crank. If it did break I'd look at either another larger vintage engine (Gardner 5LW or maybe a Kelvin K3/4) or the new JCB marine engine.

 

I'd like to get this one running as well as it can, as it should be up to the job.

 

JP2 engines were common in Humber Keels etc., but I suppose it was a different world then

 

We had an HA3 in the Beecliffe, similar power to a JP3, it had replaced a JP2 before our time. We took it across the North Sea (Boston to Oostende, 200 nautical miles non-stop) and over most of France, Holland & Belgium. We did change it for something a bit bigger because we were going to go down the Rhone and wanted to be able to come back up! (which we did, successfully).

 

Tim

[flatplane8]

JP2 engines were common in Humber Keels etc., but I suppose it was a different world then

 

We had an HA3 in the Beecliffe, similar power to a JP3, it had replaced a JP2 before our time. We took it across the North Sea (Boston to Oostende, 200 nautical miles non-stop) and over most of France, Holland & Belgium. We did change it for something a bit bigger because we were going to go down the Rhone and wanted to be able to come back up! (which we did, successfully).

 

Tim

 

Southcliffe, which was up in Goole being rigged for sail when we were up there has a JP2 and its owner says it can be a little underpowered. I've always thought that as Misterton carried 120 tons with a JP3 it must be ok.

 

What was the engine you put in for the Rhone trip?

[Timleech]

Southcliffe, which was up in Goole being rigged for sail when we were up there has a JP2 and its owner says it can be a little underpowered. I've always thought that as Misterton carried 120 tons with a JP3 it must be ok.

 

What was the engine you put in for the Rhone trip?

 

Gardner 4LW

 

Tim

[flatplane8]

As an update, I sent the injectors off to PJ Slater to be refurbished, and brought 3m of 6mm steel fuel injector line(2mm bore as specified in the Lister manual) plus the nuts and olives from SSL diesel parts. The line could be bent into the required shapes by hand fairly easily. The olives needed the ends of the lines peening over a little to stop them falling off. I overdid this the first time and had a few leaks, but the second attempt worked well though and the engine started and ran fine after bleeding.

 

After that it was back to re-arranging the cooling pipes to make way for a day tank, stage1 in retiring the overhead tank which isn't going to conform to regulations.

Edited February 20, 2011 by flatplane8

[flatplane8]

I need to remake the ends on a couple of my injector lines as they are leaking slightly. A well as being equal length, should they be a specific length? I've seen the new injector pipes on eBay being listed as 32 inches long, mine are more like 37 inches.

[Tony Brooks]

I need to remake the ends on a couple of my injector lines as they are leaking slightly. A well as being equal length, should they be a specific length? I've seen the new injector pipes on eBay being listed as 32 inches long, mine are more like 37 inches.

 

In an ideal world they should be the same length to avoid a slight difference in injection timing but I doubt you would notice the difference on a boat engine.

 

You do not say what engine you have but all the more modern ones seem to have the "olive" formed from the pipe itself. However to do that you need a hydraulic pipe flaring kit because of the wall thickness. I doubt that you could justify the cost. I think most Diesel Injection Specialist will make such pipes up to pattern but you may well have to bend them to shape.

[flatplane8]

Thanks Tony, it's a lister JP3 as mentioned earlier in the thread. I thought I'd posted this in the Lister section, but must've been before it existed.

 

I've used the pipe and fittings from SSL diesel parts, the olive is separate and the ends of the pipe are just peened over very slightly to hold it in place.

[GBBS]

Hi I can make these pipes all I need is either your old pipes or the fittings from the ends and the length of the pipe. I have the easiest way to measure the length is to thread a thin copper wire into the pipe from end to end then pull it out and measure it, the pipe I use is 6mm x2mm steel injector pipe

Dave 07812 039110

[flatplane8]

Thanks for the offer, I've got the bits here I need to make them so will see how I get on. I'm using a piece of hose slipped over the outside of them to measure the length, I'll just make sure they are equal.

[starman]

How did you get on with bending the pipes? I've got to get some new ones made up for my JP3 and nervous of kinking them doing freehand bending.