My first electrical problem

[Barry]

I'm in a Marina with shore power provided through electrical 'stands'(?)

 

I managed to lose my shore power - I've checked the stand and reset the RCD breaker there but I have another RCD breaker on my boat that I can't reset

 

 

Apologies for the poor photo - phone

 

It's a Protec as far as I can see. The blue breaker on the right is down and I understand that it should be up - but when I press it up it won't stay up. I've tried pressing the white button in the centre while I press the blue button up and all the variations I can think of

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Anyone familiar with these?

[Heffalump]

Sounds like there's something shorting

[alan_fincher]

Those boxes are all much of a muchness, I think.

 

AS you correctly say, the bit you can't reset is the RCD - Residual Current Device.

 

If working correctly it is checking that the current flowing in your "live" wire matches that flowing in your "neutral". Any imbalance causes a trip. This should be taken seriously as if you don't have same "current in" as "current out", (OK pedants, I know it's not like that with AC!), then it indicates some is managing to leak away to earth.

 

Not good.

 

So either you have a fault in your on-board electrics, or something plugged in to them, or the RCD itself is playing up. One of the former two, I would say is far more likely.

 

However (when working!) any current is also flowing through one of those other two circuit breakers you have there, (to the left). What happens if you turn both those off ? Will the RCD then reset ?

 

If so, it is likely that re turning back on one of those other breakers will then trip the RCD again. Each of those other breakers will be feeding different things, so if this happens, it will at least tell you whether it is the stuff on the left hand breaker that is causing the fault, or that on the right.

 

One further thing - the right hand one looks through my blurred specs (and cataract!) as if it is rated 32 amps. Very few shore lines will support 32 amps, so this is probably not ideal. You should perhaps see what it is feeding, and consider changing it to (say) a 16 amp one.

 

If I've garbled any of that, please let me know, and I'll try and explain better!

 

EDITED TO ADD: I suspect the "press" button you refer to is a test one - it is meant to trip it! If so it will never reset while you are pushing that. I don't suppose it has got stuck in the "in" position, has it ?

Edited January 19, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

I'm in a Marina with shore power provided through electrical 'stands'(?)

 

I managed to lose my shore power - I've checked the stand and reset the RCD breaker there but I have another RCD breaker on my boat that I can't reset

 

 

Anyone familiar with these?

 

Its bollards BTW not 'stands'....

 

Anyway this would indicate something is shorting to earth, thus tripping the breaker.

 

First place to start would be unplug anything that uses 240v (You've previously mentioned using heaters on your boat).

 

do it one by one and try to reset after each one, if it resets you will have found the culprit.

 

One further thing - the right hand one looks through my blurred specs (and cataract!) as if it is rated 32 amps. Very few shore lines will support 32 amps, so this is probably not ideal. You should perhaps see what it is feeding, and consider changing it to (say) a 16 amp one.

 

If I've garbled any of that, please let me know, and I'll try and explain better!

 

 

My limited understanding of these matters would say irrespective of the load the boat is drawing it will always trip the point of lowest resistance first so if the shore power trip will at 16 amps it will will trip at 16 amps - the 'trip point' of the boat RCD would not matter if it was was 116 amps, the shore power one would trip first....would it not..

[alan_fincher]

My limited understanding of these matters would say irrespective of the load the boat is drawing it will always trip the point of lowest resistance first so if the shore power trip will at 16 amps it will will trip at 16 amps - the 'trip point' of the boat RCD would not matter if it was was 116 amps, the shore power one would trip first....would it not..

Yes,

 

Probably, provided it is easy to reset the shore supply. I think both the two I have had have only had a user resetable RCD, not any kind of over current trip I could actually get to, but I may be remembering wrong.

 

But say Bazza is running lights through the 6 amp circuit, and a power tool through the 32 amp one. If he has a mishap with the latter, and it trips at the shore, not the boat, then everything on board will die. If the breakers are appropriate on the boat, it would be better if that tripped, leaving unaffected circuit turned on. That said, if he has 16 amps aboard, and 16 amps ashore, and is drawing something through the 6 amp circiit too, I guess it is still likely the shore will trip first ? Maybe a case for less than 16 amp breaker on board, if he doesn't need it, but I have generally only seen 6 amp and 16 amp trips in that type of unit.

 

I've certainly managed to trip the 16 amp breaker in my on-board unit, but please don't ask me how.

[Barry]

Ok thanks guys - time to 'fess up and this is where I show my ignorance....

 

I lost my power when I was trying out a small hand held vacuum cleaner left by the previous owner. I had one 240v table lamp plugged in. My boat has two circuits; one 12 volt and one 240v. Each circuit has 3 pin sockets (of different colours to identify the circuit). I plugged the vacuum into the 12v socket and switched it on - nothing happened so I thought it might be 240v. Plugged it into a 240v socket and the lights went out.

 

So I'm thinking I might need to remove that 240v socket and look at the wires behind it - isolate the socket somehow.

 

Oh by the way the vacuum has been ditched and I'm seriously thinking about changing the sockets on the 12v circuit to two pin or something so I can't make the same mistake again

[Guest]

Ok thanks guys - time to 'fess up and this is where I show my ignorance....

 

I lost my power when I was trying out a small hand held vacuum cleaner left by the previous owner. I had one 240v table lamp plugged in. My boat has two circuits; one 12 volt and one 240v. Each circuit has 3 pin sockets (of different colours to identify the circuit). I plugged the vacuum into the 12v socket and switched it on - nothing happened so I thought it might be 240v. Plugged it into a 240v socket and the lights went out.

 

So I'm thinking I might need to remove that 240v socket and look at the wires behind it - isolate the socket somehow.

 

Oh by the way the vacuum has been ditched and I'm seriously thinking about changing the sockets on the 12v circuit to two pin or something so I can't make the same mistake again

 

Ahhh.. and an ex fireman too....

 

Plugging a 12V appliance into a 240v supply is not to be recommended, as you've found. I would have thought this would have just 'nuked' the appliance but perhaps it's fried (and shorted) the socket and the wring to it in the process...

[Heffalump]

sounds like the vac blew something!

[Barry]

Please feel free to laugh - I admit I've earned it but we live and learn don't we.

 

When I flicked the switch on the vacuum nothing happened - no pop, no bang, no puff of smoke, no smell of burning insulation, nothing except the lights went out

 

 

 

 

Edited to add - I know a lot about fires Martin but I know bugger all about electrics

Edited January 19, 2011 by Bazza2

[Guest]

Please feel free to laugh -

 

OK then - on The Dog House all the mains sockets have a little plaque above them labled '240 volt only', I always wondered why this was - till now...

 

PS clocked your edit - just a bit of copper/fire bobby/nurse leg pulling you understand..

Edited January 19, 2011 by MJG

[alan_fincher]

I had one 240v table lamp plugged in. My boat has two circuits; one 12 volt and one 240v. Each circuit has 3 pin sockets (of different colours to identify the circuit).

Same plug type, obviously!

 

Bloody hell!

 

Assuming your 240 volt circuit uses the standard domestic 13 amp square pin plug, absolutely no way in the world whatsoever should you have the same for 12 volts.

 

Many people, (us included!), use the old style round pin "mains" plugs for 12 volts, either in the 2 amp or 5 amp size.

 

This kind of thing...

 

 

 

Some even frown at that, as they are still used in some mains applications, (e.g. table lights in some pubs apparently).

 

I'm prepared to live with that - you would think twice before taking your 12 volt vac to see if it would plug in in the nearest riverside pub, I'd have thought. But having a square pin plug so it can just plug into mains anywhere seems really too risky to contemplate!

 

Get the 12 volt ones changed ASAP!

[Barry]

Same plug type, obviously!

 

Bloody hell!

 

Assuming your 240 volt circuit uses the standard domestic 13 amp square pin plug, absolutely no way in the world whatsoever should you have the same for 12 volts.

 

Many people, (us included!), use the old style round pin "mains" plugs for 12 volts, either in the 2 amp or 5 amp size.

 

This kind of thing...

 

 

 

Some even frown at that, as they are still used in some mains applications, (e.g. table lights in some pubs apparently).

 

I'm prepared to live with that - you would think twice before taking your 12 volt vac to see if it would plug in in the nearest riverside pub, I'd have thought. But having a square pin plug so it can just plug into mains anywhere seems really too risky to contemplate!

 

Get the 12 volt ones changed ASAP!

 

That's the sort of thing - where do you get em from Alan?

 

Yeah yeah I know google is my friend so I'm off googling now but I don't mind if you help me out with a link

[LoneWolf]

That's the sort of thing - where do you get em from Alan?

 

Yeah yeah I know google is my friend so I'm off googling now but I don't mind if you help me out with a link

 

That's the same type of plug as my boat. Have looked in loads of shops but only ever found them in boatyards/chandleries

[mrsmelly]

That's the sort of thing - where do you get em from Alan?

 

Yeah yeah I know google is my friend so I'm off googling now but I don't mind if you help me out with a link

I may well be wrong but I thought we are not allowed the same sort of sockets for 12v and mains stuff ? My boat has both types but they are totaly different and it is not possible to plug into the wrong one

[alan_fincher]

That's the sort of thing - where do you get em from Alan?

 

Yeah yeah I know google is my friend so I'm off googling now but I don't mind if you help me out with a link

Those images are from Screwfix.

 

IIRC, you can either buy a recognised brand like "MK" or "Crabtree", or pay quite a bit less if you buy an anonymous brand, (which are usually just as robust, but maybe not quite as "rounded").

 

Exactly the same thing at chandlers, but often 3 times the price - I suspect that some may buy them from Screwfix!

 

The one thing that is hard to find at reasonable cost is ones with a switch on the socket part. Let me know if you do, but I have always gone for a separate switch alongside, as it's much cheaper, if not as neat.

 

The sockets fit a standard square wall box, which you may need to change to, if your existing "12 volt" sockets are doubles.

 

Although a 5 amp rated socket really should not be used for more, I find I can draw quite a bit more through them without problems, as round pin in round hole is actually a very good way of making a plug.

 

That's the same type of plug as my boat. Have looked in loads of shops but only ever found them in boatyards/chandleries

 

Actually Scewfix prices have risen since I last bought.....

 

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/11134/Electrical-Supplies/Plug-Fuses/Round-Pin-Socket

 

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13322/Electrical-Supplies/Switches-Sockets/White-Moulded/MK-Range/MK-5A-Round-Pin-Plug

 

Toolstation seems better these days, particularly the plugs.....

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electrical/Accessories/Plug+Top+Round+3+Pin+Plug+5A+5amp/d190/sd2620/p77325

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electrical/White+Wiring+Accessories/Round+3+Pin+Socket+1+Gang+5A/d190/sd2633/p10080

Edited January 19, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

That's the sort of thing - where do you get em from Alan?

 

Yeah yeah I know google is my friend so I'm off googling now but I don't mind if you help me out with a link

 

Caravan dealers used to stock them too.

[Tommo]

I'm in a Marina with shore power provided through electrical 'stands'(?)

 

I managed to lose my shore power - I've checked the stand and reset the RCD breaker there but I have another RCD breaker on my boat that I can't reset

 

 

Apologies for the poor photo - phone

 

It's a Protec as far as I can see. The blue breaker on the right is down and I understand that it should be up - but when I press it up it won't stay up. I've tried pressing the white button in the centre while I press the blue button up and all the variations I can think of

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Anyone familiar with these?

Go and turn it off on the bollard, then reset the trip in the boat, then reset the bollard trip and see what happens.

 

Ian

[Keeping Up]

If you are using the 3-pin round plugs & sockets for 12v on the boat, it is a good idea to deliberately use the "earth" and "neutral" pins so that if it does ever get plugged into a socket somewhere else that is carrying 240v then no harm will be done to either the appliance or the supply.

[Guest]

If you are using the 3-pin round plugs & sockets for 12v on the boat, it is a good idea to deliberately use the "earth" and "neutral" pins so that if it does ever get plugged into a socket somewhere else that is carrying 240v then no harm will be done to either the appliance or the supply.

 

Allan I think that one needs a bit of expansion - as in what do you mean by "it is a good idea to deliberately use the "earth" and "neutral" pins so that if it does ever get plugged into a socket somewhere else that is carrying 240v then no harm will be done to either the appliance or the supply."

[Keeping Up]

OK, sorry, I guess that could easily have been a bit clearer.

 

Many boats use the old 3-pin round sockets for 12 volts. Therefore people have 12 volt equipment wired into 3-pin round plugs. These are the plugs and sockets shown in the pictures above.

 

These sockets were once used for 240v in houses, and some people have been known to use them on boats for 240v as well. It is conceivable that the 12 volt equipment may at some stage in its life, find itself being plugged into a socket that is carrying 240v.

 

As seen from the top, with the cover removed, the top pin of a 3-pin plug is used for the earth connection, the one to the right is used for the 240v live connection, and the one to the left is used for the neutral connection.

 

When using a 3-pin round plug and socket for 12v, it is preferable to use the top pin and the left-hand pin for the 12v supply - usually with the negative to the top pin and the 12v positive to the left hand pin; that is to say, do not use using the right-hand pin for anything. This will ensure that if the plug is ever inadvertently plugged into a socket that is carrying 240v ac, the only voltages that will be presented to the 12v appliance are the earth and neutral. In this way no harmful voltages will be applied to the appliance or its user, and no harmful currents will be taken from the supply.

 

Is that clearer?

[ditchcrawler]

I just googled 5 amp switch socket and got loads of hits including brass ones.

[Guest]

Is that clearer?

 

Spot on cheers..

[alan_fincher]

When using a 3-pin round plug and socket for 12v, it is preferable to use the top pin and the left-hand pin for the 12v supply - usually with the negative to the top pin and the 12v positive to the left hand pin; that is to say, do not use using the right-hand pin for anything.

 

That's interesting.

 

I have always assumed when people propose this approach that they would stick with "neutral" for 12 volt negative, but attach the 12 volt positive to "earth".

 

Which of course means that if you borrow some piece of 12 volt equipment from someone who has, and polarity is important.........

[Barry]

Alan I followed Ditchcrawlwer's tip and found these switched 5A round pin sockets clicky

 

Any good to you?

[Strads]

I like many of the other posters use the round pin plugs / sockets for 24v etc.

 

Easily found at decent electrial supply shops and even at b&Q and all were lots cheaper than chandlers/caravan shop ones that I saw at Midland chandlers ( approx double the price and looked a naff coffee colour)

 

I dont know the extent/condition of the wiring on bazza boat bout would suggest a carefull check on cable types and consider either a colour shroud or at least electrians cable on all cable ends so that again they "appear " different and you dont idadvertently put 240v cable on to the low volt socket and casue a gentle frying of that circuit/equipment.

 

When wiring our boat we used Artic blue througout for all 240v - clearly identifiable, and our 24v is a loomtech loom covered in black plastic sheathing - both easily identifiable and only some one very colour blind and no sense of touch could mistake..

 

proved ouy system worked when i drilled through a panel and shorted the 240v mains out at the rcd and bollard trips at the same time - reassured me that they worked..

 

use the KISS principles when in doubt