Electricals - Please be gentle!

[Mrs Humdinger]

We are having some electrical issues and I am struggling somewhat to understand our set up and exactly how it works. This is the first time we've had any of this technical stuff - the most technical thing on our last boat was a Halfords Battery Charger - and I may ramble a bit, so please feel free to talk to me like I am 2 years old!!

 

We have a Mastervolt 12/2500 Inverter/Charger Combi, and a Travel Power unit which supplies electricity when the engine is running. Up until a few weeks ago all had been working fine. Then I noticed that when the engine was running the Mastervolt wasn't switching over to charger mode. If you switched the Mastervolt to Charger Mode, it is just dead. It "inverts" fine, but just doesn't charge. There are some flashing lights, particularly the AC Power light, but this seems to be random and doesn't tie up with any of the light sequences in the troubleshooting section.

 

The light on the Travel Power is green, which according to Beta means everything is OK with that. Certainly,in the past when we've run the engine so I can use the hairdryer (I know, I know!!!), I've heard the engine revs change when I've switched the dryer on, so assume that was working.

 

Fast forward a couple of weeks to a nightmare trip up the Severn and a new mooring with a shiny new shore power bollard. Mr Hum unrolls our new cable and plugs it in. I was expecting to see the Mastervolt happily trip into charger mode, but nothing happened. Cable and power bollard were checked, and were both OK.

 

So, this is what we have.

 

Mastervolt Unit that inverts but doesn't charge.

Travel Power Unit that seemingly runs OK, but doesn't provide any electricity inside the boat.

Shore Power connection that doesn't actually give you any power inside the boat.

 

Am I right in assuming that the Mastervolt, Travel Power and Shore Connection should run independently of each other? ie, if connected to shore power, you wouldn't need to have the inverter switched on? Similarly with the travel power - with the engine running you would get power without having to use the inverter?

 

To me, it seems like the power is just not getting into the boat, rather than a problem with the Mastervolt, as it would only switch over to charger mode if there was AC power present, which it seems there isn't. Mr Hum is having trouble in seeing this - electrics are not his thing. If this is the case, then what else could it be?

 

Boat builder is not interested/too busy. Aquafax (where the Mastervolt came from) say that the unit will have to be removed and taken back to their Luton depot for testing, which seems a bit extreme and not really much of a warranty to me. If I have to start taking things out then I want to be sure I am taking out the faulty stuff before I do it.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gibbo]

This would normally be wired as follows:-

 

TravelPower and shorepower socket would go to some form of changeover switch so you can switch between them. This may be manual or may be automatic. You'd have to trace the wires to find out.

 

This is so you can select which power source you intend to use. They can't just be permanently connected together otherwise something would go bang.

 

The power coming out from this changeover switch would then go into the mains input on the Mastervolt. The Mastervolt would automatically switch over to this power and transfer it to its output to feed the rest of the boat.

 

So firstly you need to identify how you swap between TravelPower and shorepower. The fact that the inverter works but you can't get power from the TravelPower sort of implies that either Travelpower power isn't getting to the Mastervolt or the Mastervolt is faulty and is not recognising it.

 

Removing the Mastervolt and sending it away is the right thing to do to check the Mastervolt but it's not the right thing to do to find what the actual problem is.

 

A local boat sparky would be much better.

[Albion]

We are having some electrical issues and I am struggling somewhat to understand our set up and exactly how it works. This is the first time we've had any of this technical stuff - the most technical thing on our last boat was a Halfords Battery Charger - and I may ramble a bit, so please feel free to talk to me like I am 2 years old!!

 

We have a Mastervolt 12/2500 Inverter/Charger Combi, and a Travel Power unit which supplies electricity when the engine is running. Up until a few weeks ago all had been working fine. Then I noticed that when the engine was running the Mastervolt wasn't switching over to charger mode. If you switched the Mastervolt to Charger Mode, it is just dead. It "inverts" fine, but just doesn't charge. There are some flashing lights, particularly the AC Power light, but this seems to be random and doesn't tie up with any of the light sequences in the troubleshooting section.

 

The light on the Travel Power is green, which according to Beta means everything is OK with that. Certainly,in the past when we've run the engine so I can use the hairdryer (I know, I know!!!), I've heard the engine revs change when I've switched the dryer on, so assume that was working.

 

Fast forward a couple of weeks to a nightmare trip up the Severn and a new mooring with a shiny new shore power bollard. Mr Hum unrolls our new cable and plugs it in. I was expecting to see the Mastervolt happily trip into charger mode, but nothing happened. Cable and power bollard were checked, and were both OK.

 

So, this is what we have.

 

Mastervolt Unit that inverts but doesn't charge.

Travel Power Unit that seemingly runs OK, but doesn't provide any electricity inside the boat.

Shore Power connection that doesn't actually give you any power inside the boat.

 

Am I right in assuming that the Mastervolt, Travel Power and Shore Connection should run independently of each other? ie, if connected to shore power, you wouldn't need to have the inverter switched on? Similarly with the travel power - with the engine running you would get power without having to use the inverter?

 

To me, it seems like the power is just not getting into the boat, rather than a problem with the Mastervolt, as it would only switch over to charger mode if there was AC power present, which it seems there isn't. Mr Hum is having trouble in seeing this - electrics are not his thing. If this is the case, then what else could it be?

 

Boat builder is not interested/too busy. Aquafax (where the Mastervolt came from) say that the unit will have to be removed and taken back to their Luton depot for testing, which seems a bit extreme and not really much of a warranty to me. If I have to start taking things out then I want to be sure I am taking out the faulty stuff before I do it.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

I have had similar symptoms on my newly built barge recently which is equipped with a Victron isolation transformer where one trip (of the two) flips out on the IT and disconnects me from the shore power even though everything else appears normal. This sounds, as Gibbo has said, as if something has tripped/shut down and all it needs is someone to trace what. It would be just too coincidental IMO for both the your shore power supply AND the travelpower to have packed up at exactly the same time. I suspect that this will be something relatively simple. Don't know if you're moored anywhere near him but Dave Reynolds is an excellent boat sparky. See http://www.narrowboatelectrics.co.uk/

Roger

[Mrs Humdinger]

Thanks for the tips. I was sure that you couldn't have them all wired up together at. We have an automatic AC transfer switch, which (according to the manual) switches the power from one source to the other giving priority to generator/shore power. We did check the two boxes and they didn't appear to be tripped, ie, all the switches were up, but that's about the extent of my electrical knowledge. As Roger says, it seems unlikely that both the shore and travel power have packed up at the same time, and feel it must be something simple. Dave Reynolds is probably a bit too far away from us, but apparently the marina has a Colin who is well versed on all things electrical I will get Colin to investigate.

[Gibbo]

but apparently the marina has a Colin who...........

 

Why does that phrasing make me laugh?

[nicknorman]

If it was my boat I would put an AC voltmeter onto the mains input to the Mastervolt, then run the engine/travelpower or connect to shore power to see if power is reaching the Mastervolt. This could be a dangerous thing to do if not done very carefully (risk of electric shock), but if you ensure the meter is on the correct settings (AC volts, and voltage range >240v), connect it to the input terminals of the Mastervolt (eg slacken off the terminal screws and poke the meter probes alongside the wire, then retighten) with all mains sources double-checked switched off/disconnnected, then whilst keeping all fingers etc away from the meter leads, turn on the shore power or Travelpower and see if the meter reads 240v-ish. Then turn off all AC mains sources before putting fingers back inside the box.

 

If it does read ~240v, it would probably be the Mastervolt failed. If not, its likely to be something to do with the AC trasfer system or a tripped breaker.

 

To get to the mains terminals you have to remove the front cover: Ensure all mains power is off then undo 2 screws near the bottom of the front face and slide the cover down and away.

 

I also note that there is a resettable thermal trip (like a circuit breaker) inside this cover near the mains input terminals, if power is reaching the Mastervolt input I suppose its possible this has tripped. It can be reset by pushing it in, though really you should consider why it has tripped before resetting it and applying power again. Good luck!

 

Nick

[nb Innisfree]

Thanks for the tips. I was sure that you couldn't have them all wired up together at. We have an automatic AC transfer switch, which (according to the manual) switches the power from one source to the other giving priority to generator/shore power. We did check the two boxes and they didn't appear to be tripped, ie, all the switches were up, but that's about the extent of my electrical knowledge. As Roger says, it seems unlikely that both the shore and travel power have packed up at the same time, and feel it must be something simple. Dave Reynolds is probably a bit too far away from us, but apparently the marina has a Colin who is well versed on all things electrical I will get Colin to investigate.

 

All marinas should have one...

 

My money is on a faulty relay in the Mastervolt which switches in 230v when energised from SP or TP?

Edited December 1, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Mac of Cygnet]

All marinas should have one...

 

 

 

We do! (Shire Cruisers, Sowerby Bridge). Absolutely invaluable.

[Eeyore]

Good evening Mrs H

Automatic changeover switches usualy contain relays, and relays make a sound when they operate.

(yes I know that they can still be broke, but its a good place to start)

Have Mr H go out in the cold and switch the shore supply on and off whilst you listen for a clicking sound from the switch (just one click each time you turn the power on, and one click when you turn it off).

If there is no sound try this.

Disconnect the shore supply, start the engine, and listen whilst turning the travel power on and off.

A lack of clicking during both of these checks would point to a defective changeover switch.

Note: it is usual to have the automatic changeover relay energised by the shore supply, but sometimes they are installed the over way round; hence checking with the engine running.

Regards

Steve

[Mrs Humdinger]

Thanks for all your tips. I have spoken at length to the Mastervolt Man, and we discussed the relay clunking, although we haven't actually heard it doing that. At present, all fingers are pointing at the relay. Mr Hum is struggling a bit with the concept of it all, but I have explained it 3 times in very simple terms, and I swear the last time I actually saw the bulb go on over his head as he said "ah, I see what you mean now" in an incredulous voice. He's usually very practical, but seems to have real block with all this.

 

Anyway, the good news is that Colin is coming on Saturday to investigate. My main concern is the batteries - charging by running the engine is not as efficient as using the charger, and I fear they have taken a bit of a hammering over the last few weeks due to Mr Hum wanting to have the TV on all the time. We are now moored in a Marina, with nice new neighbours. No-one seems to run their engines at all, and having only just arrived don't want to annoy anyone.

 

Colin says that even if he can't fix it straight off, he can fudge something. Don't you just love a Colin who can fudge!!!

[NB Willawaw]

I think you will find that most equipment on a new boat that is covered by a warranty will have a similar warranty i.e. parts only or return to base for repair.

I suppose being charitable, what can the boat builder actually do, apart from sound interested ??

 

If they arrange for somebody to attend your boat to look at the problem, they will end up having to invoice you for the labour content - I'm sure you would be responsible, but there's a lot that wouldn't pay the bill.

 

Aquafax are a main distributor for Mastervolt and Mastervolt give them a warranty - probably the terms of that warranty are parts and a minimum amount of workshop labour i.e. one hour.

 

We have Mastervolt kit onboard and its never missed a beat. I've worked on and installed Mastervolt kit and have always found them professional.

 

Good luck with your Colin. Make sure he tells you what the bodge is that he puts on the circuit (or better still, documents it) and that he orders the right part for you so he can make a permanent fix.

 

Boat builder is not interested/too busy. Aquafax (where the Mastervolt came from) say that the unit will have to be removed and taken back to their Luton depot for testing, which seems a bit extreme and not really much of a warranty to me.

Edited December 2, 2010 by NB Willawaw

[Tony Brooks]

Except consumer law says the vendor is responsible and, in fact, manufacturers' or distributors' warranties do not take precedence over the vendor's legal obligations - although it seem most vendors try to use such warranties as a way of avoiding their responsibilities.

 

I just can not understand why consumer protection departments have not jumped all over this sort of practise years ago to make it so expensive to avoid your duties it is simply not worth doing.

 

Unfortunately far too many people do not seem to be aware of consumer protection legislation so companies continue to get away with it. ext time you are offered an "extended warranty" try asking them to confirm in writing that they think the quality of the product is such that it will not last a reasonable time. Also ask them how long Euro-law makes them responsible for hidden faults in their product.

 

If the boat or equipment installation is less than a year old it is probably the vendors responsibility to put it right or pay to put it right and then try to recover the costs from their supplier. If it is over one year old and up to six years old (I think) then if the fault was caused by a faulty component rather than expected wear & tear or abuse it is still the vendors problem to get it fixed.

 

It all sounds nice and simple but in real life it is unfortunately often simpler and less trouble to sort yourself out, but that does not make it right.

[Eeyore]

Thanks for all your tips. I have spoken at length to the Mastervolt Man, and we discussed the relay clunking, although we haven't actually heard it doing that. At present, all fingers are pointing at the relay. Mr Hum is struggling a bit with the concept of it all, but I have explained it 3 times in very simple terms, and I swear the last time I actually saw the bulb go on over his head as he said "ah, I see what you mean now" in an incredulous voice. He's usually very practical, but seems to have real block with all this.

 

Anyway, the good news is that Colin is coming on Saturday to investigate. My main concern is the batteries - charging by running the engine is not as efficient as using the charger, and I fear they have taken a bit of a hammering over the last few weeks due to Mr Hum wanting to have the TV on all the time. We are now moored in a Marina, with nice new neighbours. No-one seems to run their engines at all, and having only just arrived don't want to annoy anyone.

 

Colin says that even if he can't fix it straight off, he can fudge something. Don't you just love a Colin who can fudge!!!

Hi Mrs Humdinger

Has Colin made you a nice fudge ?

Steve

[Mrs Humdinger]

All I can say is "Colin is a God!!" And without a fudge in sight. That said, we're not completely fixed as yet. However, we do now have shore power, and the Mastervolt is happily charging the batteries.

 

We have a Masterswitch 0 Automatic AC Transfer Switch. This seems to consist of two boxes, one with a clear front panel that can be lifted up which houses what looks like a fuse switch. The other is a solid plastic box which needs a screwdriver to remove the cover. There is "clunking" when switching from one mode to the other. Inside the solid box was a tiny slide switch which when moved across allows the shore power into the boat. I assume it is some kind of trip switch. We had taken the cover off to have a look, but it kind of gives the impression that you shouldn't be fiddling about under here, so hadn't touched any of the settings. Obviously something must have made it trip in the first place, but it seems an add place to put such a switch. We haven't been running anything heavy duty, just the TV and central heating on occasion.

 

Anyway, we now have shore power, so the batteries are charged which is the main thing I was concerned about. Mr Hum can watch TV to his heart's content, and the boat has been transformed from a freezing cold corridor to a nice warm corridor by the central heating.

 

We still don't get any power in the boat from the travel power unit when the engine is running, and we're not sure if this is also to do with the Masterswitch or something else. As we're not going anywhere soon, this is not so much of an issue.

[curzons246]

Except consumer law says the vendor is responsible and, in fact, manufacturers' or distributors' warranties do not take precedence over the vendor's legal obligations - although it seem most vendors try to use such warranties as a way of avoiding their responsibilities.

 

I just can not understand why consumer protection departments have not jumped all over this sort of practise years ago to make it so expensive to avoid your duties it is simply not worth doing.

 

Unfortunately far too many people do not seem to be aware of consumer protection legislation so companies continue to get away with it. ext time you are offered an "extended warranty" try asking them to confirm in writing that they think the quality of the product is such that it will not last a reasonable time. Also ask them how long Euro-law makes them responsible for hidden faults in their product.

 

If the boat or equipment installation is less than a year old it is probably the vendors responsibility to put it right or pay to put it right and then try to recover the costs from their supplier. If it is over one year old and up to six years old (I think) then if the fault was caused by a faulty component rather than expected wear & tear or abuse it is still the vendors problem to get it fixed.

 

It all sounds nice and simple but in real life it is unfortunately often simpler and less trouble to sort yourself out, but that does not make it right.

 

Tony do you know where I can get a copy of the relevant piece of legislation - I ask because I have an 18 month old £1320.29 toilet from the leading supplier of marine toilets in this country. The toilet has ceased to funtion because of an unknown electrical fault in the flush mechanisum, they tell me I should be greatful for any advice they give me - that I will responsible for any repairs and testing and that i should contact the manufactures if i'm not happy as it's one year warranty has expired. I've discussed 'durability' with him but he aint having it. That having said your last comment about real life are wise wise

words Bill NB indulgence

[JGMarine]

Tony do you know where I can get a copy of the relevant piece of legislation - I ask because I have an 18 month old £1320.29 toilet from the leading supplier of marine toilets in this country. The toilet has ceased to funtion because of an unknown electrical fault in the flush mechanisum, they tell me I should be greatful for any advice they give me - that I will responsible for any repairs and testing and that i should contact the manufactures if i'm not happy as it's one year warranty has expired. I've discussed 'durability' with him but he aint having it. That having said your last comment about real life are wise wise

words Bill NB indulgence

 

just google "sale of goods act"

 

that will tell you all you need to know.

 

And yes the retailer is responsible for upto 7 years.

[curzons246]

just google "sale of goods act"

 

that will tell you all you need to know.

 

And yes the retailer is responsible for upto 7 years.

 

Template letter typed and ready for the post

[pquinn]

We still don't get any power in the boat from the travel power unit when the engine is running, and we're not sure if this is also to do with the Masterswitch or something else. As we're not going anywhere soon, this is not so much of an issue.

 

 

try reving the engine a little and then hit the green button.

[Tony Brooks]

just google "sale of goods act"

 

that will tell you all you need to know.

 

And yes the retailer is responsible for upto 7 years.

 

 

Just something further to add. I think this only applies to retail sales so next time the bod in PC World asks if your purchase is for private or company use tell him private and demand a VAT receipt. Its another ploy DSG use to try to avoid their warranty obligation.