Best batteries?

[mick1964]

I have to replace my batteries soon. Can anybody recommend a particular brand? I have been looking at Elecsol 110AH as I understand they are good for 1000 cycles. Can anyone verify this? Its quite a large outlay so I want to make sure I get something decent.

[mayalld]

I have to replace my batteries soon. Can anybody recommend a particular brand? I have been looking at Elecsol 110AH as I understand they are good for 1000 cycles. Can anyone verify this? Its quite a large outlay so I want to make sure I get something decent.

 

Turn your assumptions on their head.

 

The number of cycles that a battery is good for is based upon an assumption that you tend them lovingly, and that you NEVER abuse them.

 

The facts are that the vast majority of boaters will end up doing something that abuses the battery, and shortens its life.

 

In consequence, there is very little point in buying expensive batteries. Far better to buy the cheapest you can get, and replace them more often.

[Naughty Cal]

It may help if you give us some more information as to how you use your boat. Do you liveaboard?, do you have a habit of running your batteries flat?, what are your power needs?, what is your charging regime? etc.

 

It will help give you a more realistic answer.

 

We have just replaced our leisure batteries with 105AH Varta leisure batteries, but we are leisure users, dont liveaboard and are quite hard on our batteries so replacing them with expensive batteries didnt make sense. We are happy to replace our cheaper batteries every couple of years instead of ruining expensive batteries in the same time.

[Keeping Up]

When they first came on to the market many years ago, Elecsols were pretty good. I had two successive sets and was very pleased with them. Then they disappeared from the market for a while, then reappeared. Since that time the reports of their performance seem to be (at best) rather mixed and I don't use them any more.

 

Edited to add: I'm using Varta batteries at the moment, they're still holding up pretty well after 4 years of use (6 months living on board during the summer plus occasional leisure use in the winter)

Edited November 17, 2010 by Keeping Up

[mick1964]

It may help if you give us some more information as to how you use your boat. Do you liveaboard?, do you have a habit of running your batteries flat?, what are your power needs?, what is your charging regime? etc.

 

It will help give you a more realistic answer.

 

We have just replaced our leisure batteries with 105AH Varta leisure batteries, but we are leisure users, dont liveaboard and are quite hard on our batteries so replacing them with expensive batteries didnt make sense. We are happy to replace our cheaper batteries every couple of years instead of ruining expensive batteries in the same time.

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

Yes I do live aboard. I don't use much power - I never put the telly on!I use power for central heating pump and water pump, fridge in the summer (I turn it off in the winter) plus small amount for led lights and radio. I now have solar panels trickling charge back in. Batteries have gone flat in the past but the solar panels keep them pretty well topped up now.

 

So maybe I should go for cheap ones?

 

Mick

[mayalld]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Yes I do live aboard. I don't use much power - I never put the telly on!I use power for central heating pump and water pump, fridge in the summer (I turn it off in the winter) plus small amount for led lights and radio. I now have solar panels trickling charge back in. Batteries have gone flat in the past but the solar panels keep them pretty well topped up now.

 

So maybe I should go for cheap ones?

 

 

My earlier reply was based on the assumption that the vast majority of boaters will eventually do something that shortens battery life.

 

You have now confirmed that you do sometimes end up with flat betteries, and that you don't make any particualr effort to ensure that they are fully charged.

 

That puts you FIRMLY into the category of "boaters who shjould buy cheap batteries"

[mick1964]

My earlier reply was based on the assumption that the vast majority of boaters will eventually do something that shortens battery life.

 

You have now confirmed that you do sometimes end up with flat betteries, and that you don't make any particualr effort to ensure that they are fully charged.

 

That puts you FIRMLY into the category of "boaters who shjould buy cheap batteries"

 

Yes I confess I did let my batteries go flat once or twice when I was in hospital suffering from a very serious illness (from which I have now made a stirling recovery).

Hence the solar panels should I relapse. You are probably right, I should go cheap. Thanks for the advice Mayalld.

[smileypete]

Yes I confess I did let my batteries go flat once or twice when I was in hospital suffering from a very serious illness (from which I have now made a stirling recovery).

Hence the solar panels should I relapse. You are probably right, I should go cheap. Thanks for the advice Mayalld.

Why not buy reasonably good quality NON sealed truck starting batts (664 size = 110Ah) from a local battery specialist?

 

They may cost a little MORE, if so ask yourself why, when the market for truck batts is at least 1000x bigger than for cheapo leisure batts?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 17, 2010 by smileypete

[Naughty Cal]

When they first came on to the market many years ago, Elecsols were pretty good. I had two successive sets and was very pleased with them. Then they disappeared from the market for a while, then reappeared. Since that time the reports of their performance seem to be (at best) rather mixed and I don't use them any more.

 

Edited to add: I'm using Varta batteries at the moment, they're still holding up pretty well after 4 years of use (6 months living on board during the summer plus occasional leisure use in the winter)

 

Thats promising as we had bargained on changing them every couple of years. Hopefully our new upgraded battery bank will last a little longer as we wont be draining as much from each battery.

[Nickhlx]

Even better....

 

Why not try a set of Vince's ex - UPS batteries to start with ? Many people including myself have sampled these and almost everyone has had good reports first time round - and any faulty ones I am sure are replaced ASAP - Search for "Vince1969" £25 each and they are about 110 Ah from memory. http://www.canalworl...opic=15343&st=0 is good to read. Personally, I prefer wet cells as they are cheaper, and supposedly take more "abuse", both good "characteristics" . Vince does sometimes have these.

 

Better to test your regime and fine tune it on cheaper batteries before outlaying maybe £500- £750 and killing them inadvertently.... Others may have been a bit harsh on your abilities in my opinion as the unfortunate incident was an accident and not ignorance on your part, and you now have solar to help keep topped up....

 

Do a power audit to see how many Ah you use per 24 hours or between each charging opportunity, work out the capacity needed ( 2 or 3 times that as batteries shouldn't repeatedly be discharged below 50% charge), and be paranoid about a good charging regime, with regular equalisation charging ( may need to isolate loads as voltage could reach too high for the safety of some ). Don't underestimate how long it takes to recharge from e.g. 50% down - it is likely to be 6-8 hours assuming high initial charging current ability - your solar panels will be very helpful in the summer months to "finish charging off" as the last 3 hrs or so will be at much lower current than initially, which they should be able to produce.

 

Definitely a Smartgauge ( or similar) will give a good status of your batteries and help management without having to use a hydrometer ( always useful to use as well though).

 

Trojan batteries e.g T-105 or T-125 claim 1200 cycles and ability to be discharged to 30% charge, although 50% would be better for them and are around £100-£140 for a 6V 125Ah battery depending on where you buy and offers on... I went for 4 of the T-125 and am still pleased with them 18 months on, and manage to not let them get much below 70% charged - some would say the bank is to big, but that's my choice - I would say I do mange to manage power consumption well... and one day I may want that extra.

 

Hope that gives more info to consider....

 

Nick

Edited November 17, 2010 by Nickhlx

[mayalld]

 

Better to test your regime and fine tune it on cheaper batteries before outlaying maybe £500- £750 and killing them inadvertently.... Others may have been a bit harsh on your abilities in my opinion as the unfortunate incident was an accident and not ignorance on your part, and you now have solar to help keep topped up....

 

 

I hope that I'm not being harsh.

 

When I say that the vast majority of boaters will do something that will shorten the life of their batteries, I include myself in that majority.

 

It is all too easy for some unexpected circumstance to creep out of the woodwork, and despite your best intentions, there goes 25% of the remaining life of your battery. It isn't something that anybody can be criticised for, but if we accept that it is going to happen we can adopt a strategy that minimises the financial impact.

 

The solar panels may well help to ensure that a catastrophic discharge is less likely, but it isn't going to ensure a regular full charge that is needed for optimum life. Again, no criticism intended, because the necessary outlay on ensuring that you charge the expensive battery well to get full life just doesn't cost in.

[Nickhlx]

I hope that I'm not being harsh.

 

When I say that the vast majority of boaters will do something that will shorten the life of their batteries, I include myself in that majority.

 

It is all too easy for some unexpected circumstance to creep out of the woodwork, and despite your best intentions, there goes 25% of the remaining life of your battery. It isn't something that anybody can be criticised for, but if we accept that it is going to happen we can adopt a strategy that minimises the financial impact.

 

The solar panels may well help to ensure that a catastrophic discharge is less likely, but it isn't going to ensure a regular full charge that is needed for optimum life. Again, no criticism intended, because the necessary outlay on ensuring that you charge the expensive battery well to get full life just doesn't cost in.

 

Sorry Dave, I wasn't attacking you per se, but batteries won't fall over and die with one deep discharge say to 20% - True they will likely be "annoyed" by the experience, but probably forgive if a good equalisation is given shortly (immediately) after... If his solar panels are "sizeable" and give maybe 10 amps or so, if he gets the majority of charge in "by engine" before say 10 or 11 a.m then the solar can take over and be useful until an hour or so before sunset - particularly if he is aboard and can orientate them to catch most radiation.

He sounds a light user and well aware of the ins and outs of electrical consumption too, which is a very good start... e.g. I was impressed with the "fridge off at night" comment.

 

Nick

[Naughty Cal]

Sorry Dave, I wasn't attacking you per se, but batteries won't fall over and die with one deep discharge say to 20% - True they will likely be "annoyed" by the experience, but probably forgive if a good equalisation is given shortly (immediately) after... If his solar panels are "sizeable" and give maybe 10 amps or so, if he gets the majority of charge in "by engine" before say 10 or 11 a.m then the solar can take over and be useful until an hour or so before sunset - particularly if he is aboard and can orientate them to catch most radiation.

He sounds a light user and well aware of the ins and outs of electrical consumption too, which is a very good start... e.g. I was impressed with the "fridge off at night" comment.

 

Nick

 

i wasnt, warm beer and the risk of food poisoning from warm meat, no thanks

[curzons246]

Why not buy reasonably good quality NON sealed truck starting batts (664 size = 110Ah) from a local battery specialist?

 

They may cost a little MORE, if so ask yourself why, when the market for truck batts is at least 1000x bigger than for cheapo leisure batts?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

£89.99 on ebay with free delivery so like you say Pete just a little more.

Cheers Bill

[mayalld]

Sorry Dave, I wasn't attacking you per se, but batteries won't fall over and die with one deep discharge say to 20% - True they will likely be "annoyed" by the experience, but probably forgive if a good equalisation is given shortly (immediately) after...

 

They won't die immediately, but you will undoubtedly be down to 8 lives, and even if they are then looked after nicely, they WILL fail sooner than they would have done.

[Nickhlx]

They won't die immediately, but you will undoubtedly be down to 8 lives, and even if they are then looked after nicely, they WILL fail sooner than they would have done.

 

 

I agree - how many "lives" i.e. deep discharges to less than 10% is reckoned for a wet celled battery ? The Trojans claim 1200 cycles to 30% DoD, and whilst 10% or 5% is a lot deeper, how many at this depth ?

 

Nick

[WotEver]

I agree - how many "lives" i.e. deep discharges to less than 10% is reckoned for a wet celled battery ? The Trojans claim 1200 cycles to 30% DoD, and whilst 10% or 5% is a lot deeper, how many at this depth ?

 

Nick

Gibbo's your man for that. I seem to recall that he said recently that just one discharge down to 10% was enough to pretty much kill a battery he was testing.

 

Tony

[Nickhlx]

Gibbo's your man for that. I seem to recall that he said recently that just one discharge down to 10% was enough to pretty much kill a battery he was testing.

 

Tony

 

 

OK - We'll await his arrival...

 

Nick

[Gibbo]

I agree - how many "lives" i.e. deep discharges to less than 10% is reckoned for a wet celled battery ? The Trojans claim 1200 cycles to 30% DoD, and whilst 10% or 5% is a lot deeper, how many at this depth ?

 

Nick

 

I've been running tests recently involving just this. ie discharging batteries down to zilch in order to deliberately ruin them to check a battery monitor which also calculates the state of health.

 

Brand new ("leisure" - not real deep cycle but not a complete cheapo. ie not an engine start battery with handles on it) battery, cycled a few times to get it up to working capacity, tested out at 85Ahrs (the label said 90Ahrs, the man in the shop reckoned them to be at least 100Ahr - obviously talking crap).

 

5 discharges down to zero % SoC followed by immediate, good, charges, reduced it to a 60Ahr battery.

 

The same thing done to an engine start battery actually broke it after the fourth discharge. It hardly worked at all after that.

 

Back to the leisure battery. Another week with daily cycles down to zero % and it was down to 40Ahrs. It has been cycled daily since then but only down to around 65% and remains about the same. This started about 1 month ago.

 

On monday I start doing exactly the same tests with two proper (very expensive) deep cycle batteries. I shall post the results. Will be a few weeks. I suspect it will take somewhat longer.

 

But remember, people who treat batteries this way are usually the same people that leave them flat for days and/or don't charge them up properly either which, obviously, compounds the problem.

[John R]

Lead battery cycling capability is mainly determined by positive plate construction and to a much lesser degree plate separation design.

 

When dischared to 0% as gibbo is doing the posive plate will bend and buckle when attemting to recharge and the active material (lead oxides) on the plates will fall off reducing capacity quickly and will very soon short out the bottom of the plates leading to complete failure.

 

As a rule of thumb starter and leisure batteries should not be dischared below 50% and good ie tubular plate traction or cycling batteries below 80%. Flat plate cycling batteries are capable of somewhere inbetween.

 

They should be sized for the appication accordingly - anything else is at best kidding yourself.

[Pretty Funked Up]

On monday I start doing exactly the same tests with two proper (very expensive) deep cycle batteries. I shall post the results. Will be a few weeks. I suspect it will take somewhat longer.

 

cant wait

 

interesting that the starter battery did actually fail well b4 a so called liesure. perhaps theres magic in the labels

[smileypete]

Brand new ("leisure" - not real deep cycle but not a complete cheapo. ie not an engine start battery with handles on it) battery, cycled a few times to get it up to working capacity, tested out at 85Ahrs (the label said 90Ahrs, the man in the shop reckoned them to be at least 100Ahr - obviously talking crap).

 

5 discharges down to zero % SoC followed by immediate, good, charges, reduced it to a 60Ahr battery.

 

The same thing done to an engine start battery actually broke it after the fourth discharge. It hardly worked at all after that.

Interesting, what make and type (sealed or not) and part code (eg 017, 644) was it? Was it a car or truck start batt?

 

Would be good to see the test on a good quality non sealed truck starting batt.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 18, 2010 by smileypete

[Nickhlx]

Superb info - thanks Gibbo...

 

Can it be assumed that if the average user has an "accident" once every say 6 months, where the bank gets discharged deeply but not "dead" flat, that he will be better off ( i.e. his bank will take longer to be destroyed) by buying better batteries ? ( i.e. they will take more deep discharges to destroy them ? I guess this is what the current ( ) test might show....)

 

Nick

 

 

[Pretty Funked Up]

On monday I start doing exactly the same tests with two proper (very expensive) deep cycle batteries. I shall post the results. Will be a few weeks. I suspect it will take somewhat longer.

 

I hope we dont get the answer for months (thats what I'm counting on). Care to divulge the manufacturer / model??

 

All the goodies are deep (physically) theres less chance of it shorting a cell etc etc

Edited November 20, 2010 by Pretty Funked Up

[Pretty Funked Up]

On monday I start doing exactly the same tests with two proper (very expensive) deep cycle batteries. I shall post the results. Will be a few weeks.

 

 

Hows this little experiment going?