too expensive

[jradley]

40 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

When people who haven't got a boat think it's money for old rope and you point out that the fleets struggle to make the maths work....

My comment about canal holidays looking expensive compared to other residential holidays wasn't intended to sound like this and apologies if it did. I totally get how the business works and the costs involved. There is no monoploly so if any one hire base wanted to overcharge they would simply be undercut by the others and would lose business. It is understood as stated above that hire companies will charge what the market will bear, but if the market can't bear what is required to make a profit then the hire companies pack up shop, and I don't know but guess to some extent the marinas and boat yards that they operate from too, to the detriment of all.
The difficulty the hire companies have is selling their product to a very price concious market.

[Chris Williams]

Nowadays hirers expect showers, wi-fi, tellys and all the other 'essential' things.  Of course it is expensive, compared to the very basic boats that were for hire way back.  12 kids in an old coal boat, with Army double bunks, a cooker, a bucket and not much else - they loved it.

[roland elsdon]

You would have to pay me a lot more than 1300 quid to make me drive a range rover sport for a week rather than steer my boat

[Dav and Pen]

2 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

Nowadays hirers expect showers, wi-fi, tellys and all the other 'essential' things.  Of course it is expensive, compared to the very basic boats that were for hire way back.  12 kids in an old coal boat, with Army double bunks, a cooker, a bucket and not much else - they loved it.

Actually the beds came from the Prison service. I have just come across an old brochure and see we charged £150 a week on 1975.

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

Actually the beds came from the Prison service. I have just come across an old brochure and see we charged £150 a week on 1975.

A lot of money in 1975.

[Dav and Pen]

Good job we weren’t relying on you to bring 22 kids then.

you could have had a boat for free in the winter if you fancied bagging 20 tones of coal and selling it.

[Athy]

5 hours ago, BilgePump said:

surely manslaughter would be the charge and sentencing based on culpability, ie: you were illegally renting out an unsuitable and uncertified boat?

Yes, it probably would be.

[roland elsdon]

8 hours ago, Athy said:

Yes, it probably would be.

Call the beak Dude and you can commit any crime and get away with it.

[Onionman]

Find me a cottage you can rent where:

 

If your neighbours turn out to be noisy you can move away from them

The view from your window is different every morning

Your kids won't get bored because "there's nothing to do"

You can have it both in the countryside and in the middle of a city in the same week.

 

[Slim]

On 23/07/2019 at 10:18, jradley said:

Having recently booked a hire I started reading this thread from the top and didn't realise it was 13 years old until seeing the post about it being dug up. It's interersting because over those 13 years nothing much has changed in terms of the numbers. But of course £1k was worth more 13 years ago than it is now, meaning that canal holidays are effectively cheaper than they were back then. That said, so are package holidays and many other things, so canal holidays still seem disproportionately expensive, especially when comparing with the cost of say a 2 or 3 bedroom lodge with hot-tub in a park in Dorset or Devon for example (which would be little more than half the price of a 60ft narrowboat).

 

John

I would ask if you have ever owned a NB. If you had I doubt you would ask the question. On another topic I said that my NB costs me around 8K a year to own, not own and use. I stand by that estimate which doesn't include capital investment, depreciation, turnaround costs, 99% of the servicing/maintenance labour costs etc, etc. Also the hire season is not that long. Look at any hire fleet base outside school holidays. Like as not you'll see wall to wall boats.

[Momac]

On ‎22‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:42, john ince-jones said:

Having just viewed a half board trip to Barcelona for 2 during August costing £700 including flights how does a week on a narrow boat cost £1500 when the client pays for the fuel which also provides the electricity, the laundry costs should be no more than those encountered by a b and b, possibly less if done 'in house' and the client also provides the provisions (food). I have a boat on the Solent which costs me £500 a year in moorings and club membership together with maintenance costs which vary. I would dearly love to use the canals but whilst I accept the hidden fees for licencing the vessel, insurance and maintenance costs and need to make a profit surely the costs charged are 'money for old rope' ! Yours Aye, Skimmer

I suggest you take the Barcelona option.

 

[jradley]

41 minutes ago, Slim said:

I would ask if you have ever owned a NB. If you had I doubt you would ask the question. On another topic I said that my NB costs me around 8K a year to own, not own and use. I stand by that estimate which doesn't include capital investment, depreciation, turnaround costs, 99% of the servicing/maintenance labour costs etc, etc. Also the hire season is not that long. Look at any hire fleet base outside school holidays. Like as not you'll see wall to wall boats.

Hi Slim,

 

No, I have never owned a NB. When I was a kid my parents owned a canal cruiser and I know how much work and money went into that. In more recent times I spent about 10 years sailing and maintaining yachts, and to a lesser extent small motor boats, though never owned one. I know how much the owners were spending though. I have also done a lot of research recently on costs of moorings, maintenance, licensing and insurance etc. of NBs. I would like to think I am more aware of costs than most first time hires.

 

The point I was making about canal holidays seeming expensive was not so much that they are expensive or poor value for money or a case of the hire companies ripping people off, but rather that for someone who doesn't know what is involved they really do seem expensive. I appreciate there is sod all the hire companies can do about it, because it is what it is, but the reality is for the average person looking for a UK holiday they will probably see canal holidays as overpriced and move on to something else.

 

John

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, jradley said:

Hi Slim,

 

No, I have never owned a NB. When I was a kid my parents owned a canal cruiser and I know how much work and money went into that. In more recent times I spent about 10 years sailing and maintaining yachts, and to a lesser extent small motor boats, though never owned one. I know how much the owners were spending though. I have also done a lot of research recently on costs of moorings, maintenance, licensing and insurance etc. of NBs. I would like to think I am more aware of costs than most first time hires.

 

The point I was making about canal holidays seeming expensive was not so much that they are expensive or poor value for money or a case of the hire companies ripping people off, but rather that for someone who doesn't know what is involved they really do seem expensive. I appreciate there is sod all the hire companies can do about it, because it is what it is, but the reality is for the average person looking for a UK holiday they will probably see canal holidays as overpriced and move on to something else.

 

John

A narrowboat hire was my first proper boating experience - loved it.

We changed to more conventional holidays after that but it was greater cost to go abroad for a family of 4.

If you are looking at it from two people on a narrowboat you are not making best use of the available space

 

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Slim said:

... On another topic I said that my NB costs me around 8K a year to own, not own and use. I stand by that estimate which doesn't include capital investment, depreciation, turnaround costs, 99% of the servicing/maintenance labour costs etc, etc. Also the hire season is not that long. Look at any hire fleet base outside school holidays. Like as not you'll see wall to wall boats.

Which is surely somewhat surprising?  The hire companies have incurred those costs, even if the boat is not being used. Provided they cover the marginal costs of hiring (handover, fuel, cleaning, a contribution to maintenance / depreciation, etc), then any sort of hire should be better than none.  Why not hire it out in the spring/autumn, even to just two people, for a substantial discount on the normal price?

[Athy]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I suggest you take the Barcelona option.

 

They're such different experiences that it is hard to make a direct comparison.

 

Narrowboat hire cannot be cheap because the boats cost so much to build in the first place. The only cheaper options would be the lesser fleets comprising second- or third-hand craft.

[carlt]

7 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

Narrowboat hire cannot be cheap because the boats cost so much to build in the first place. 

 

Well the Sagrada Família wasn't exactly cheap.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, carlt said:

 

Well the Sagrada Família wasn't exactly cheap.

What is it? A cruise liner?

[carlt]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

What is it? A cruise liner?

It is Barcelona's "Whitefield".

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, carlt said:

It is Barcelona's "Whitefield".

Ah, an exotic and somewhat pointless boat....but, for hire?

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

They're such different experiences that it is hard to make a direct comparison.

 

Narrowboat hire cannot be cheap because the boats cost so much to build in the first place. The only cheaper options would be the lesser fleets comprising second- or third-hand craft.

I don't think its about the cost of building a narrowboat. The aircraft and the hotel cost money too.

For two people to take a narrowboat holiday is expensive but make that family of 4 or 5 for the same rental and, per person,  its not so bad.

 

I shared the charter cost for  a 41ft yacht in Greece last year for a week  . It was not cheap but when split between two couples the cost was affordable and I thought good value for a boat that would probably have cost £350k when new  and was only 3 years old. Also it was a  great experience.

Edited July 24, 2019 by MartynG
typo

[Dyertribe]

20 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

A lot of money in 1975.

According to the UK inflation calculator £150 in 1975 had the equivalent purchasing power of £1,247.87 today

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

According to the UK inflation calculator £150 in 1975 had the equivalent purchasing power of £1,247.87 today

Yes, so a pretty similar sum to hire today. I recall paying a fair few quid when I hired my first boat holiday on the broads in may 1980.

[Athy]

6 hours ago, MartynG said:

I don't think its about the cost of building a narrowboat. The aircraft and the hotel cost money too.

 

Yes, it is. Your examples are not comparable.

[Cheese]

If you run a low cost airline, then once you have paid for the purchase/lease of the aircraft, you want it to be in use every day, and to maximise the income from it.  So you vary the prices according to demand: if no one is booking the price goes down until someone is prepared to pay.  So in most case the flight close to full when it depart, and you have maximised the income.

 

As with the airline, the initial purchase cost of the boat is not directly irrelevant  - it has already been incurred.   From then on, it makes little economic sense for hire boats to just be sitting in the yard - at any time of year.  If the hire company really wanted to maximise its income, it would be flexible on price.  Setting high prices for busy periods, but in slack periods reducing prices to the level that almost every boat in its fleet is booked out at all times (allowing for maintenance).   As I said above, the only critieria should be to cover the marginal costs of hire (booking cost, instruction, fuel, oil, cleaning/turn-around, depreciation etc), as after that every £ is profit.  If the marginal cost is £300 for a week's hire, it is better to hire out the boat for £301 for that week than leave it in the yard earning nothing.

 

The downside is that the canals would be full of hire boats, every week of the year!

 

 

[jradley]

7 hours ago, Cheese said:

..... So you vary the prices according to demand: if no one is booking the price goes down until someone is prepared to pay.

...If the marginal cost is £300 for a week's hire, it is better to hire out the boat for £301 for that week than leave it in the yard earning nothing.

Yes. Which makes me wonder why more people aren't prepared to pay whatever is needed to make it viable to hire out at quieter times of the year. I can only think of two reasons, one being demographic of the typical hirer - is it family with kids who can only holiday in school holidays ? - I don't know. The other is perception of what a narrow boat can offer in terms of comfort. I think to people who don't know they are perceived as tents that float. I like camping but mid September is my cut-off time. Until I started looking into hiring I didn't know narrow boats these days came with central heating for example. How stupid does that make me feel !! Also, there is a mis-understanding of what canal cruising involves. I know my in-laws would love a canal holiday, but when we told them we were doing one their response was "don't you have to have a license" and "we could never drive a boat like that". I think if the hire companies want to be busier then somehow they have to overcome the perception problems, but of course are way too small to afford massive marketing campaigns, so realistically much of their customer base is people who already understand canal cruising or families in the summer.

 

As you say, if they were busier year-round then so would be the canals themselves, and therein lies a whole other problem