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Djuwenda

Atheist Boaters fellowship

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It adds little to the debate, but for what it's worth, the circle on the map needs to be considerably larger for the statement to be accurate.

Yes it would but that would not alter the underlying premise.

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It adds little to the debate, but for what it's worth, the circle on the map needs to be considerably larger for the statement to be accurate.

slightly larger.

So which 'us' did your god create, Bassplayer? the 'us' that are living in so-called christian countries? the 'us' living in muslim countries? jews/hindus/buddhists/wiccans/sikhs? atheists/agnostics? indigenous populations of Australasia/Asia/Africa/the Pacific Islands/the Americas?

As I posted weeks ago. the christian/muslim/jewish god was invented in the middle east about 5000 or 6000 years ago and no mention of anywhere outside that region exists in any of the so-called holy scriptures - evidence that god is man made, as the writers of the scriptures only knew their own area.

I cheered when I saw the post recently with the map of the world showing the tiny circle that encompasses the above mentioned region, BTW; and I groaned when I realised that such information would make no difference to people who believe in a creator.

By extrapolation along the continuum of belief and what it 'allows' or enables, it is easy to see how inhuman behaviour can occur to others who don't share the believer's belief. In recent history (let alone the Inquisition, the Crusades, the pogroms throughout the centuries) It's not a terribly big step from the war in Iraq started by two christian leaders in Bush and Blair (god told me I was right or some such nonsense) and the depravities of Abu Ghraib and hundreds of thousands of civilians killed and dispossessed to the killings and depravities of ISIS, and all done in the name of faith and the righteousness of belief.

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

agree clapping.gif

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slightly larger.

 

A fair bit larger...

 

fVKWce3.png

 

Ophir to the East

Meshech to the North

Tarshish to the West

Shiba to the South

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A fair bit larger...

 

Ophir to the East

Meshech to the North

Tarshish to the West

Shiba to the South

Delta9, you seem to have a lot of knowledge of the Old Testament (or is this Torah or Qu'ran?), so I looked those up out of interest.

 

According to Wikipedia no one seems to be sure where Ophir or Tarshish were, Meshech seems to be a person according to Wikipedia, and Shiba seems to be a breed of Japanese dog - so obviously I'm going wrong somewhere. So I tried a searchable bible. I'm now no wiser.

 

Where were these places? Can you also point me to where I can find the actions of god in those places?

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Delta9, you seem to have a lot of knowledge of the Old Testament

No, just a passing interest, I'm not religious at all.

 

Going on the best guesses of the locations, as you say exact locations are not known

 

Tarshish - Atlantic coast of Spain.

 

Ophir - Somewhere in India

 

Mashech - On coast of Black sea in Georgia or Russia

 

Shiba I misspelled, it should have been Sheba - Etheopia.

 

Shiba is indeed a breed of Japanese dog and they are extremely cute.

 

doge.jpg

(wow)

 

Can you also point me to where I can find the actions of god in those places?

 

I suppose you would have to read through the Bible. I do remember one. Jonah ran away from God to Tarshish but God still heard him when he called out in distress.

 

Jonah 2:2 - and he said, "I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice.

 

Edited by Delta9

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So which 'us' did your god create, Bassplayer?

I presume you mean the God I believe in. I believe he created all of us.

 

All the despicable actions humans have done in the world are down to us. It doesn't matter what label we give ourselves, if there is no love behind our actions, it goes wrong. That's why I have a problem with religion because I believe it's man made, not God made.

 

After a few years, human parents realise that controlling their children and forcing them to be nice, doesn't work. We have to give them some free reign otherwise they won't learn for themselves. It makes us very sad when they get it wrong though.

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All the despicable actions humans have done in the world are down to us. It doesn't matter what label we give ourselves, if there is no love behind our actions, it goes wrong. That's why I have a problem with religion because I believe it's man made, not God made.

 

 

I don't really understand this premise that everything bad is man-made and everything good is god's work.

 

Love is as much man-made as evil and there is no logical reason why it should be otherwise.

 

Denigrating our species in this way is the catalyst to the hate found in organised religion.

 

All the wonderful actions humans have done in the world are down to us.

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I don't really understand this premise that everything bad is man-made and everything good is god's work.

 

Love is as much man-made as evil and there is no logical reason why it should be otherwise.

 

Denigrating our species in this way is the catalyst to the hate found in organised religion.

 

All the wonderful actions humans have done in the world are down to us.

That is a ridiculous interpretation and poor twist on what I just said Carl, but just to amuse you...

 

I don't believe love is man made, so we will just have to differ on opinions there. I believe 'our species' (I prefer to call us people) are very special and capable of some beautiful things but also capable of terrible things (usually when the love bit is not involved). God's love is at the heart of most religions but often gets left out, that's our problem. I don't think you have to be religious to be a loving and good person if that helps.

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I don't think you have to be religious to be a loving and good person if that helps.

 

I don't think you have to have a god to be a loving and good person either.

 

Animals demonstrate a more instinctive form of "love" as an evolutionary advantage.

 

Man's enhanced ability to express emotions and act in a "good" or "evil" way is merely a refined and evolved version of the instinctive behaviour of animals.

 

Our emotions have evolved alongside our ability to communicate and use tools to set us apart from our animal ancestors and no god was required to cause this development.

 

Fortunately, as we continue to evolve, more and more of us are losing this primitive need to provide supernatural solutions to as yet insoluble answers.

 

Blind faith is a human trait that is disappearing...Evolution at work.

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I don't think you have to have a god to be a loving and good person either.

 

Animals demonstrate a more instinctive form of "love" as an evolutionary advantage.

 

Man's enhanced ability to express emotions and act in a "good" or "evil" way is merely a refined and evolved version of the instinctive behaviour of animals.

 

Our emotions have evolved alongside our ability to communicate and use tools to set us apart from our animal ancestors and no god was required to cause this development.

 

Fortunately, as we continue to evolve, more and more of us are losing this primitive need to provide supernatural solutions to as yet insoluble answers.

 

Blind faith is a human trait that is disappearing...Evolution at work.

I think we need God's help more than ever now we are beginning to think we know it all. Tools are dangerous in inexperienced hands. Another CERN test another Big Bang!

 

A bit more about where I'm at at the moment. My faith is currently based on two things.

 

1) The creation. Science does help us understand the mechanism but there are still many missing answers (e.g what triggered the start of the Big Bang, what came first, the chicken or egg etc). Even if science did explain everything it doesn't explain why. I know Dawkins thinks this is a silly question but I think the word 'experience' is key. Our conscousness is our experience, maybe that's shared with God, maybe it's all part of God, who knows. I love this experience of life and I'm really grateful for the chance to have a life. I really don't believe it's all an unplanned accident. I don't need to understand it to enjoy it either.

 

2) Relationship with our creator. Maybe we were created for the same reason many of our parents created us. To bring another being into the world who we can love, care for and share experiences with. That means we have to give our children free reign sometimes and take the risk they can cock things up, badly sometimes. That's why it's good to ask for a bit of help and guidance sometimes. Other times it's nice to say thanks for this life.

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I think we need God's help more than ever now we are beginning to think we know it all. Tools are dangerous in inexperienced hands. Another CERN test another Big Bang!

 

I think reliance on a mythical creature to answer questions that require logic and reason is far more dangerous than thinking for ourselves.

 

I have worked at CERN and there is no chance of them creating a "Big Bang" but, if you think this is possible then it is a far more sensible proposition than the bible's idea of creation.

 

If you believe CERN can create a Big Bang then are you not just worshipping a bunch of geeky scientists who inadvertently destroyed their universe and created ours?

 

Then again that is more reasonable than some sentient superbeing drifting around all alone in nothingness until he thought "I know! I'll create something!"

 

By crediting a gang of nerds with the power to create a new universe you have severely demeaned the strength of your creator.

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I think reliance on a mythical creature to answer questions that require logic and reason is far more dangerous than thinking for ourselves.

 

I have worked at CERN and there is no chance of them creating a "Big Bang" but, if you think this is possible then it is a far more sensible proposition than the bible's idea of creation.

 

If you believe CERN can create a Big Bang then are you not just worshipping a bunch of geeky scientists who inadvertently destroyed their universe and created ours?

 

Then again that is more reasonable than some sentient superbeing drifting around all alone in nothingness until he thought "I know! I'll create something!"

 

By crediting a gang of nerds with the power to create a new universe you have severely demeaned the strength of your creator.

There you again, twisting what I say to amuse yourself...

 

The biggest danger to the world is people believing they are 100% right about everything. They are no longer open to new ideas and the arrogance leads to all sorts of problems. The obsession to prove God doesn't exist may well destroy us in the end but I seriously doubt it will destroy the creator who started the mechanism in the first place.

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I think we need God's help more than ever now we are beginning to think we know it all. Tools are dangerous in inexperienced hands. Another CERN test another Big Bang!

 

A bit more about where I'm at at the moment. My faith is currently based on two things.

 

1) The creation. Science does help us understand the mechanism but there are still many missing answers (e.g what triggered the start of the Big Bang, what came first, the chicken or egg etc). Even if science did explain everything it doesn't explain why. I know Dawkins thinks this is a silly question but I think the word 'experience' is key. Our conscousness is our experience, maybe that's shared with God, maybe it's all part of God, who knows. I love this experience of life and I'm really grateful for the chance to have a life. I really don't believe it's all an unplanned accident. I don't need to understand it to enjoy it either.

As far as I am aware what caused the big bang is not known. By what logic does that suggest God? This is the "god of the gaps" science doesn't know the answer? good, that's god then. The trouble with this is that as new knowledge is discovered there is less and less space for god. let me adopt the same point turned around. What caused/created god? As for why. The reason why it is a silly question is because "why?" presumes that there is a reason. A reason unlike a simple cause requires an individual consciousness to have that reason for whatever. So to agree that the question even has an answer presumes the existence of god.

2) Relationship with our creator. Maybe we were created for the same reason many of our parents created us. To bring another being into the world who we can love, care for and share experiences with. That means we have to give our children free reign sometimes and take the risk they can cock things up, badly sometimes. That's why it's good to ask for a bit of help and guidance sometimes. Other times it's nice to say thanks for this life.

I would hesitate to describe a relationship with a non existent personality. The facts of parenting are just that and really have no bearing on the existence or non existence of a creator. One could just as easily point at those creatures that will eat their young and claim to see god there.

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As far as I am aware what caused the big bang is not known. By what logic does that suggest God? This is the "god of the gaps" science doesn't know the answer? good, that's god then. The trouble with this is that as new knowledge is discovered there is less and less space for god. let me adopt the same point turned around. What caused/created god? As for why. The reason why it is a silly question is because "why?" presumes that there is a reason. A reason unlike a simple cause requires an individual consciousness to have that reason for whatever. So to agree that the question even has an answer presumes the existence of god.I would hesitate to describe a relationship with a non existent personality. The facts of parenting are just that and really have no bearing on the existence or non existence of a creator. One could just as easily point at those creatures that will eat their young and claim to see god there.

It's a pity the development of our spiritual selves is falling behind that of our intellectual development. I can see how atheists see this as a triumph.

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It's a pity the development of our spiritual selves is falling behind that of our intellectual development. I can see how atheists see this as a triumph.

 

 

You are confusing spiritual with god. Whichever god you claim as the real one.

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You are confusing spiritual with god. Whichever god you claim as the real one.

I thought there was only one truth...it's just that none of us quite know for sure what it is...

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It's a pity the development of our spiritual selves is falling behind that of our intellectual development. I can see how atheists see this as a triumph.

You also presume we have a "spiritual self" which is at the root of the debate. It's not all about god, that just gives it a name. You also make your statement as a bald statement of fact rather that something you feel and would rather like to be true. It's back to Santa Claus, I would love him to be real and have certainly at times been filled with that emotion we call the "Christmas spirit". I am not sure in what respect this differs from the basis of your belief?

I thought there was only one truth...it's just that none of us quite know for sure what it is...

But some strive to seek out that truth and learn from their struggle whilst others cling to superstition and learn nothing.

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I thought there was only one truth...it's just that none of us quite know for sure what it is...

 

Whatever it is it is nothing to do with any god construct.

 

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all

Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know..

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Hi Bassplayer, the reason I asked which 'us' yesterday (well, my yesterday as I am in NZ and half of my yesterday is your today if you're in the UK) was that your god seems to be very personal to you, as does the god of a number of people who've contributed to this thread and a number of people I have spoken with.

 

One of the logic problems that arises for me with the concept of a personal god is the concept of people being spared from death or injury in an event that others died or were injured in, eg the recent Air Asia plane crash. in the news coverage here in NZ at least two people said that god had spared them because they had missed the flight or changed their minds about travelling that day. So, if god spared them, logically it follows that he didn't spare those who died, ie he condemned some to death. And then it logically follows that he is not good and kind and loving, but arbitrary and capricious and thoughtless about causing suffering.

 

The being spared or being condemned by a personal god can be extrapolated out to a macro level. If your personal god created all people in the world, then he's a bit of a meanie - by what I see as an accident of birth some of us have pretty much unlimited opportunities for health and happiness and a measure of wealth, others have no (or a very limited) opportunity to have any of those. By the same accident of birth, some of us live in places where we can be safe without effort, others have no safety and no prospect of it.

 

Believers in a personal god cannot have it both ways, in my view - if he spares some from an event or creates some of us in safe and prosperous environments, then it follows that he condemns others and creates still others in inhospitable poverty-stricken environments. Seems a bit capricious to me, and certainly not loving.

 

BTW, the oval that superceded the circle on the map of the world is inaccurate and therefore misleading - there were 4 points mentioned and they do not create an oval.

 

Cheers, Marilyn

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Hi Bassplayer, the reason I asked which 'us' yesterday (well, my yesterday as I am in NZ and half of my yesterday is your today if you're in the UK) was that your god seems to be very personal to you, as does the god of a number of people who've contributed to this thread and a number of people I have spoken with.

 

One of the logic problems that arises for me with the concept of a personal god is the concept of people being spared from death or injury in an event that others died or were injured in, eg the recent Air Asia plane crash. in the news coverage here in NZ at least two people said that god had spared them because they had missed the flight or changed their minds about travelling that day. So, if god spared them, logically it follows that he didn't spare those who died, ie he condemned some to death. And then it logically follows that he is not good and kind and loving, but arbitrary and capricious and thoughtless about causing suffering.

 

The being spared or being condemned by a personal god can be extrapolated out to a macro level. If your personal god created all people in the world, then he's a bit of a meanie - by what I see as an accident of birth some of us have pretty much unlimited opportunities for health and happiness and a measure of wealth, others have no (or a very limited) opportunity to have any of those. By the same accident of birth, some of us live in places where we can be safe without effort, others have no safety and no prospect of it.

 

Believers in a personal god cannot have it both ways, in my view - if he spares some from an event or creates some of us in safe and prosperous environments, then it follows that he condemns others and creates still others in inhospitable poverty-stricken environments. Seems a bit capricious to me, and certainly not loving.

 

BTW, the oval that superceded the circle on the map of the world is inaccurate and therefore misleading - there were 4 points mentioned and they do not create an oval.

 

Cheers, Marilyn

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a 'personal God'. I think faith is a personal thing if that's what you mean. I've made it very clear throughout this thread that I see God as being our creator. It's almost as if your trying to blame those with a faith for all the suffering in the world. My view on that is, suffering is usually caused by those who are full of hate rather than love. That could also be applied to those who don't have a faith or are unsure. I think love comes from our creator but we often chose to ignore it (I know atheists don't agree).

 

I don't pretend to understand the big 'God and suffering' question but I can say that much suffering in this world is caused by people who do things out of hate rather than love. Free choice means we can make mistakes. People cause repression and force others to live in poor environments. We also take risks although I think it's amazing how few flights go wrong. Fortunately there is a lot in this short life to be thankful for including the opportunity to have a life in the first place.

 

I'm ducking out of this thread now as my current views are pretty much covered throughout this thread and I don't want to start repeating myself. It's also frustrating, having been very open and honest about my views (maybe warts and all), to have my words twisted around and fired back for personal amusement. I didn't set out to change anyone's views, just to put an alternative points across as a couple of others have.

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Hi Bassplayer,

 

I'm certainly not blaming people of faith for all the suffering in the world. I do believe that a lot of the world's wars and ills have been caused by people of faith in the name of their god in whatever incarnation they perceive god to be. When I say 'people' tho I generally mean those in power who use the faith of their people to wage the wars they want to wage for territory/power/rich resource sources etc.

 

The point I was making was that if a number of travellers, say, have a personal god and believe he looks after them, then those with a personal god on the Air Asia flight were let down, and the ones who changed their arrangements and didn't fly on that plane on that day, were spared. I am sure as that plane went through rough weather and crashed there were prayers being uttered. Those on board, and their families, could rightfully ask where their personal god was then, and why didn't he spare them when he spared others. My hunch though is that the families with faith are most likely to say it was god's will, or that their loved one is now with god. Having lost a 6 month old grand-daughter to cot death a few years ago, I saw this clearly - my daughter in law is RC and she said later that it was only her faith that got her through, whereas when a friend asked me didn't I think my grand-daughter had been taken for a reason I was incandescent with rage at the idiocy and (to my way of thinking) the insensitivity of the question.

 

BTW, I am not seeing any signs of people twisting your words - what I see is different perspectives being expressed. I've read your responses to my posts and wondered how you'd taken the meaning you have from my words, but I expect that really when we have such discrepant views and are each sure of our thoughts/beliefs.

 

Cheers, Marilyn

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There you again, twisting what I say to amuse yourself...

 

No I'm not.

 

I am having an interesting discussion and talking about the things you say as I interpret them.

 

Please do not spoil the discussion.

 

You appear to talk of love as a god made thing and evil as man made whereas I see both as a product of our evolved minds.

 

I do not require a fantastical figurehead to credit humans with the ability to love or hate but it appears to me that religion and the idolisation of a god fosters far more hate than atheism , especially now that someone I knew from my days in Paris as helped "avenge" Allah.

 

I have yet to hear of anyone running into a room killing innocent people crying "Praise Atheism!" or "Vengeance for satirical artists!".

 

The ability to worship a creator is far more dangerous than the ability to dismiss its existence.

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especially now that someone I knew from my days in Paris as helped "avenge" Allah.

 

Really? Helped as in being a victim or as in being a perpetrator?

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