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Djuwenda

Atheist Boaters fellowship

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I've read lot's of stuff on so called spiritualism, two books started to change my mind, The Ghost of Flight 401 and The Airmen Who Would Not Die, both by John G Fuller. Also Eastern Mysticism has interested me. Also my weird experience that broke the laws of physics. Accounts of people who were pronounced brain dead but recovered or were resuscitated including three people who I have spoken to, all coming back with similar accounts, Gibbo himself stated that he died and his experience totally changed his outlook, he said he now knows the truth which reflects what others have said, they come back totally convinced if the reality of their experience, changed from unbelievers or having never considered life after death or the possibility of God having rejected such a notion as illogical.

 

No scientific basis just a growing conviction and the beginning of understanding of unconditional love and our true spirlitual identity.

 

I doubt you will see the sense of what I am saying, I don't want to change your view or anyone elses for that matter, you can only change yourself after all. I understand you wonder if I realise how people see my views but there are plenty who recognise my beliefs and understand them.

 

Don't concern yourself with what I believe, it's what you believe that's important to you. Dismiss me as a crackpot if you like! It really doesn't matter to me.

 

Happy Xmas! :-)

 

ETA: I have no direct experience of near death experience (yet!)

but I do believe peoples accounts.

Thanks Innisfree, sorry I didn't reply sooner, I did some investigation.

 

I don't know the books of John Fuller, and they seem to have been written long enough ago that it is difficult to do much investigation of them. I can see that they would have convinced me in the past, when I read loads of this sort of thing. They would be unlikely to do so now, without further evidence. I remember reading some books that looked at the stories in a more dispassionate way, and I began to see how legends can grow. In particular one about the Bermuda Triangle, which went back to the beginnings of the stories, and examined how they developed from one book to another, and what the actual story was in the first place - they didn't match up very well.

 

As I said, I don't know the Fuller books, but I am always suspicious of books like this, particularly when written 40 odd years ago - to me, the heyday of this sort of paranormal book, when there was a massive audience, and little chance to check the facts. The little I could find about them had me asking questions. For example:

 

One review HERE, says: "Not long after the crash, the ghosts of Loft and Repo were seen on more than twenty occasions by crew members on other Eastern Tri-Stars, especially those planes which had been fitted with parts salvaged from the Flight 401 wreckage." OK, a plane goes down in the Everglades, 101 fatalities, swamp mud was a factor in the crash (both helping to prevent bleeding, and being the cause of serious infections in some passengers), there was serious burning - and they reuse substantial amounts of the plane on other flights. Seriously? Do they do that?

 

Or this: "Faye Merryweather, a flight attendant, saw Repo's face looking out at her from an oven in the galley of Tri-Star 318. Understandably alarmed, she fetched two colleagues, one of whom was the flight engineer who had been a friend of Repo's and recognized him instantly." What? If I saw someone looking out of an oven at me, I wouldn't be alarmed, I would be hysterical.

 

Sorry, this doesn't do it for me, there have been too many cases over the years of stories which were manipulated to make them more saleable - just look up The Amityville Horror - yes there are people saying it happened, there are also an awful lot of questions about it.

 

Gibbo. Yes, many people have had near death experiences. I also believe peoples' accounts of what they saw, and I have very little doubt that this must be a very powerful experience, and I also think that they believe that they have seen the 'other side'. It doesn't mean that they have. There are other possible explanations of what people have seen. Sometimes it is a question of what is the more likely explanation: they have seen the other side, or, that is what happens in the brain when it is starved of oxygen.

 

I don't think that you are a crackpot, I disagree with you about some of the evidence, and how it should be interpreted.

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http://www.clockbackward.com/2009/02/08/was-albert-einstein-religious/

 

What difference does it make if Einstein was religious?

 

None, even the most intelligent of us can be mistaken.

 

It's like the story that I've heard so many times, that "Darwin recanted, he changed his mind at the end". He didn't, but it wouldn't make one difference to evolution if he had, the evidence is there, evolution is, as far as we are able to say, a 'fact'.

 

It doesn't mean that because Einstein was intelligent that we should follow his beliefs.

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I don't think that you are a crackpot, I disagree with you about some of the evidence, and how it should be interpreted.

First hand experience is always better (but harder) than basing ones life on second hand experience. It doesn't hold as much risk with interpretation either.

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Thanks Innisfree, sorry I didn't reply sooner, I did some investigation.

 

I don't know the books of John Fuller, and they seem to have been written long enough ago that it is difficult to do much investigation of them. I can see that they would have convinced me in the past, when I read loads of this sort of thing. They would be unlikely to do so now, without further evidence. I remember reading some books that looked at the stories in a more dispassionate way, and I began to see how legends can grow. In particular one about the Bermuda Triangle, which went back to the beginnings of the stories, and examined how they developed from one book to another, and what the actual story was in the first place - they didn't match up very well.

 

As I said, I don't know the Fuller books, but I am always suspicious of books like this, particularly when written 40 odd years ago - to me, the heyday of this sort of paranormal book, when there was a massive audience, and little chance to check the facts. The little I could find about them had me asking questions. For example:

 

One review HERE, says: "Not long after the crash, the ghosts of Loft and Repo were seen on more than twenty occasions by crew members on other Eastern Tri-Stars, especially those planes which had been fitted with parts salvaged from the Flight 401 wreckage." OK, a plane goes down in the Everglades, 101 fatalities, swamp mud was a factor in the crash (both helping to prevent bleeding, and being the cause of serious infections in some passengers), there was serious burning - and they reuse substantial amounts of the plane on other flights. Seriously? Do they do that?

 

Or this: "Faye Merryweather, a flight attendant, saw Repo's face looking out at her from an oven in the galley of Tri-Star 318. Understandably alarmed, she fetched two colleagues, one of whom was the flight engineer who had been a friend of Repo's and recognized him instantly." What? If I saw someone looking out of an oven at me, I wouldn't be alarmed, I would be hysterical.

 

Sorry, this doesn't do it for me, there have been too many cases over the years of stories which were manipulated to make them more saleable - just look up The Amityville Horror - yes there are people saying it happened, there are also an awful lot of questions about it.

 

Gibbo. Yes, many people have had near death experiences. I also believe peoples' accounts of what they saw, and I have very little doubt that this must be a very powerful experience, and I also think that they believe that they have seen the 'other side'. It doesn't mean that they have. There are other possible explanations of what people have seen. Sometimes it is a question of what is the more likely explanation: they have seen the other side, or, that is what happens in the brain when it is starved of oxygen.

 

I don't think that you are a crackpot, I disagree with you about some of the evidence, and how it should be interpreted.

Some did react hysterically, some refused to fly on that plane while others wanted to.

 

No empirical proof and it's up to the individual how to interpret it. I think anyone who looks for proof before consideration should avoid the subject altogether, it will be a fruitless excercise.

 

First hand accounts remain just that, seen from the outside they will always be subjective and rely on the viewpoint of an onlooker.

 

I'm not saying we should follow Einstein, it's just an observation.

Edited by nb Innisfree

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First hand experience is always better (but harder) than basing ones life on second hand experience. It doesn't hold as much risk with interpretation either.

No. I can base my decisions on my interpretation of what happens in my brain, or I can use external evidence to support decisions about what is happening.

 

We know that the brain really is not good at reality, what we see, feel and experience is not reality, it is an interpretation of reality. There are many ways in which the brain fools us into believing that something is true when it is not - cognitive bias, and hallucination are only two of the things that happen. Because of this there is a likelihood of misinterpreting what is going on.

 

If I interpret what is happening in my brain without reference to any external evidence then most of the time it doesn't matter to me - although that is how people get prejudices and biases. Sometimes, however, it does matter, a lot. When I hallucinated it was very real to me, I could see it clearly, but it wasn't there. I'm not going to use external evidence very much, but, it should be used when neuroscientists are deciding what is actually happening - so that there is no chance of misinterpretation. I read a lot about neuroscience, it helps me to understand that a lot of the time my brain is fooling me.

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First hand experience is always better (but harder) than basing ones life on second hand experience. It doesn't hold as much risk with interpretation either.

 

Not necessarily. The brain is able to use all sorts of ways to interpret the signals it receives from the 'outside' world. To give just one example, the eye has two kinds of receptor, rods and cones, one for colour, the other for light (can't remember which is which!). Outside the centre of your field of vision there are almost no colour receptors on the retina, just light receptors, so the eye does not see anything in colour.

 

But your brain fills in the missing colour information -- in others words, you are not actually seeing what you brain is seeing.

Edited by Machpoint005

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http://www.clockbackward.com/2009/02/08/was-albert-einstein-religious/

 

What difference does it make if Einstein was religious?

 

None, even the most intelligent of us can be mistaken.

 

It's like the story that I've heard so many times, that "Darwin recanted, he changed his mind at the end". He didn't, but it wouldn't make one difference to evolution if he had, the evidence is there, evolution is, as far as we are able to say, a 'fact'.

 

It doesn't mean that because Einstein was intelligent that we should follow his beliefs.

Quantum physics does raise the prospect that this macro world could be a carefully constructed illusion, within that construction could be the apparent evidence of evolution, a carefully constructed history of the world.

 

Weird I know but not so weird if you really think about it, just look at various computer games, very realistic but totally engineered to look convincing, only the knowledge that it is so preventing us from believing it.

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Not necessarily. The brain is able to use all sorts of ways to interpret the signals it receives from the 'outside' world. To give just one example, the eye has two kinds of receptor, rods and cones, one for colour, the other for light (can't remember which is which!). Outside the centre of your field of vision there are almost no colour receptors on the retina, just light receptors, so the eye does not see anything in colour.

 

But your brain fills in the missing colour information -- in others words, you are not actually seeing what you brain is seeing.

So if I said experience is also gained through the 'heart' rather than the 'mind' would anyone understand what I'm getting at?

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So if I said experience is also gained through the 'heart' rather than the 'mind' would anyone understand what I'm getting at?

 

Yes, but it's another way of expressing how the brain works.

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So do you think 'love' is just something in our own brain?

Yes. What do you think it is?

Quantum physics does raise the prospect that this macro world could be a carefully constructed illusion, within that construction could be the apparent evidence of evolution, a carefully constructed history of the world.

 

Indeed, I have said that I can't see any way that we would be able to work out if we were in a simulation. And, that is one of the reasons why I said "the evidence is there, evolution is, as far as we are able to say, a 'fact'."

 

It is as close to fact as we can be with Science. In Maths there is proof, in science just overwhelming evidence.

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Yes. What do you think it is?

 

 

I think the brain (along with the rest of our body) is a tool which has the ability to experience (accept and give) love. I certainly don't think we made it. I'm not taking about sex BTW although I have met people who think love is just another word for sex.

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Yes. What do you think it is?

 

I would say love in the usual sense i.e. an emotional feeling is the product of our brain, but love in the sense of unconditional love is concern for the wellbeing of all living things, a product of our soul or spiritual being, our true selves which exists independantly of our brain, outside of space and time and therefore immortal.

I think the brain (along with the rest of our body) is a tool which has the ability to experience (accept and give) love. I certainly don't think we made it. I'm not taking about sex BTW although I have met people who think love is just another word for sex.

I believe the brain is a quantum device that enables our soul to experience mortal life, a sort of device that activates this macro world to complete the illusion.

Edited by nb Innisfree

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I would say love in the usual sense i.e. an emotional feeling is the product of our brain, but love in the sense of unconditional love is concern for the wellbeing of all living things, a product of our soul or spiritual being, our true selves which exists independantly of our brain, outside of space and time and therefore immortal.

 

I believe the brain is a quantum device that enables our soul to experience mortal life, a sort of device that activates this macro world to complete the illusion.

When my mum told me dad was Father Christmas it kind of took all the fun away... ;)

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I would say love in the usual sense i.e. an emotional feeling is the product of our brain, but love in the sense of unconditional love is concern for the wellbeing of all living things, a product of our soul or spiritual being, our true selves which exists independantly of our brain, outside of space and time and therefore immortal.

 

I believe the brain is a quantum device that enables our soul to experience mortal life, a sort of device that activates this macro world to complete the illusion.

 

 

I'm not with you on the unconditional love theory. You do sometimes have to kill some things to preserve life; out of necessity, a virus. Would you want to preserve a virus and sacrifice a human? There are benevolent and malevolently minded people. That's life.

Edited by Higgs

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When my mum told me dad was Father Christmas it kind of took all the fun away... ;)

I remember when I was very young coming back downstairs on xmas eve and seeing my mum sat at the kitchen table, she spotted me and engaged in conversation with Father Christmas on the other side of the table out of my line of vision. "Yes Father Christmas. no Father Christmas, have another mince pie Father Christmas" I scuttled off, scared, back to bed, mum knew me better than I did!

Edited by nb Innisfree

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I'm not with you on the unconditional love theory. You do sometimes have to kill some things to preserve life; out of necessity, a virus. Would you want to preserve a virus and sacrifice a human? There are benevolent and malevolent minded people. That's life.

In a spiritual sense concern for well being may involve unpleasant stuff like putting a pet to sleep or having to cull wildlife. That's the whole point of life, a set of problems and experiences that forms a school for the soul, it's often referred to as Earth school.

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ETA: I have no direct experience of near death experience (yet!)

but I do believe peoples accounts.

 

Interesting that you dismissed my account (of when I had several near death "experiences" due to complications with a ruptured appendix) because it did not fit in with what you believe.

 

Personally I believe my experience differed because I was young enough not to have been influenced by other folks' accounts.

 

I don't think it is at all surprising, mystical or supernatural that, when brains are shutting down in similar ways, similar hallucinations occur as it is starved by oxygen especially when those images are already "implanted" with contact with popular culture.

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In a spiritual sense concern for well being may involve unpleasant stuff like putting a pet to sleep or having to cull wildlife. That's the whole point of life, a set of problems and experiences that forms a school for the soul, it's often referred to as Earth school.

 

 

Well, the decision may be taken out of our hands when we do something to preserve something and it goes pear-shaped. Bad decisions, based on arrogance and ignorance.

 

From my point of view, I put it all down to human nature.

Edited by Higgs

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Mind you Richard Feynmam once said "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." So if he didn't understand it not much chance for the rest of us.

It is a completely new science that very few people understand but that doesn't mean it's god.

 

It is no different to the earth circling the sun causing it to rise in the same place each day...Nobody understood it until somebody understood it and it changed from Ra crossing the sky in his flaming ship to basic astronomy.

 

Quantum mechanics is science which we are slowly coming to understand and, until we do, someone somewhere will say that it is god.

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Well, the decision may be taken out of our hands when we do something to preserve something and it goes pear-shaped. Good and bad decisions, based on arrogance and ignorance.

Unfortunately humans are arrogant and ignorant. The biggest problem for those who run the world is overpopulation. How do you decide who should live and those who shouldn't? It's a question I'm not qualified to answer but is very dependent on whether you believe this is just a one off physical existance or whether there is also a spiritual realm.

 

I know of Christians who would say that their entire faith is based on their belief that Jesus was resurrected after physical death. Personally, I think faith comes from all sorts of things ..even reading...

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I'm trying to understand some of this - doesn't mean that I will agree - but I'm trying to understand the POV.

 

Those of you that believe in a 'universal love', does that mean that you see 'god' (whatever that is, eu if you like) as loving everything, completely and totally?

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Love is just an efficient mechanism for making us reproduce. If it wasn't then Evolution would have bred it out of us centuries ago. It is nice to think we are special & not just another animal but if you can explain everything without needing to have something "special" then why do so? Before we believe these fancies, we should examine ourselves more carefully and ask "why are we attracted to fanciful ideas?".

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Unfortunately humans are arrogant and ignorant. The biggest problem for those who run the world is overpopulation. How do you decide who should live and those who shouldn't? It's a question I'm not qualified to answer but is very dependent on whether you believe this is just a one off physical existance or whether there is also a spiritual realm.

 

I know of Christians who would say that their entire faith is based on their belief that Jesus was resurrected after physical death. Personally, I think faith comes from all sorts of things ..even reading...

 

 

I've made a slight edit in the last sentence of the quote, on reflection. Not my quote of you.

 

We hardly ever make the right decisions. Spend an awful lot of time picking up the pieces. I don't think it's anyone's right to decide who lives or dies. Self preservation or prejudice play their parts. In an ideal world, resources would be shared. We'd all be going to each other's countries and sharing culture. We can't live outside of our human senses. Some people try, but find they have to deal with humans. It's probably very frustrating for them.

 

I look at some who believe in a god and think, pathetic. You may have seen some, on the news, last night.

Edited by Higgs

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