battery replacement tips

[MtB]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I started at 6 minutes, two and a half minutes later I'd heard enough about what an amazing man he was and switched it off. 

Does the very boring interview contain any useful information at any point?

 

That's the impression I picked up just looking at the link photo. I decided not to watch it as the drawbacks of lithium are well known and marketing blurb rarely never gets to grips with addressing the technical difficulties of lithium batts. 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I started at 6 minutes, two and a half minutes later I'd heard enough about what an amazing man he was and switched it off. 

Does the very boring interview contain any useful information at any point?

You'll never know!

Yes.The people that made the film have lots of money and care about the environment 

[WotEver]

27 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

The people that made the film have lots of money and care about the environment 

It's a shame they didn't use some of that money to employ someone who knows how to produce and edit an interesting video. 

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It's a shame they didn't use some of that money to employ someone who knows how to produce and edit an interesting video. 

Maybe by the time they had paid for their batteries, they couldn't afford your services 

[Robbo]

Lithium is good if your charging via petrol or diesel generator as they can be charged quicker but mainly because they don't suffer if your charge to only 80% so you are saving yourself hours of costly charging time.  This is one of the reasons I'm looking at lithium.

[rusty69]

If the cost of Lithium ever comes down, it sounds promising. Maybe government subsidies would help achieve that. 

 

 

[Robbo]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

If the cost of Lithium ever comes down, it sounds promising. Maybe government subsidies would help achieve that. 

 

 

I would think Elon Musk is more likely to help achieve that more than any government.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Robbo

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Maybe by the time they had paid for their batteries, they couldn't afford your services 

Oh not me - not my scene at all. Loads (thousands and thousands) of companies that could though. 

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I would think Elon Musk is more likely to help achieve that.

 

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I would think Elon Musk is more likely to help achieve that.

Well my money was on Kurt Cobain, but he blew it. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by rusty69

[Penfold]

The "boring man" does go on (yes and on and on) about other variants of batteries...Gel with plates and tubes and explains the difference between the two types.

Seems lead acid is so old hat these days....Anyway if yow dow watch yow wow know

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Penfold said:

The "boring man" does go on (yes and on and on) about other variants of batteries...Gel with plates and tubes and explains the difference between the two types.

Seems lead acid is so old hat these days....Anyway if yow dow watch yow wow know

But cost effective and proven. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by rusty69

[Penfold]

Are they though?

In the long run?

Perhaps Lithium are very expensive despite their predicted performance but the Gel types are a good alternative at a non toe curling expense.

The Lithium just seems to be fit,use, abuse, forget then charge them back to life from flat. If the boring man is correct anyway. For that you do get a hefty start up bill I agree.

 

[rusty69]

Just now, Penfold said:

Are they though?

In the long run?

Perhaps Lithium are very expensive despite their predicted performance but the Gel types are a good alternative at a non toe curling expense.

The Lithium just seems to be fit,use, abuse, forget then charge them back to life from flat. If the boring man is correct anyway. For that you do get a hefty start up bill I agree.

 

From the salesman who is quoting 10 years yes. Any 10 year old lithium battery users care to comment? 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Penfold said:

Are they though?

In the long run?

Perhaps Lithium are very expensive despite their predicted performance but the Gel types are a good alternative at a non toe curling expense.

The Lithium just seems to be fit,use, abuse, forget then charge them back to life from flat. If the boring man is correct anyway. For that you do get a hefty start up bill I agree.

 

Lithiums excel in a number of areas, but if your charging via shore power for the majority of the time or on shore in winter and solar in summer then lithium is wasted.  Spend the money elsewhere, an example is if your on shore power during winter and cruise during summer then putting the money into solar is better.

[Robbo]

5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

From the salesman who is quoting 10 years yes. Any 10 year old lithium battery users care to comment? 

He fails to mention that the number of cycles goes down if you discharge deeply as well just like a normal battery.   If you discharge to 100% the cycle count is around 100, 80% is around 2000. 50% and it's 5000.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Robbo

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

He fails to mention that the number of cycles goes down if you discharge deeply as well just like a normal battery.   If you discharge to 100% the cycle count is around 100, discharge to 50% and it's 5000.

Wel he would, wouldn't he. Hes a salesman in a niche market.

 

Interesting though, that was one of his main selling points 

Edited May 22, 2017 by rusty69

[Robbo]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Wel he would, wouldn't he. Hes a salesman in a niche market. 

Also if your on shore power a lot this would be very bad for lithium as they like to be active and keeping them charged at 100% all time will seriously degrade them.  So yes lithium are suitable for a good number of boats, but not in a good number of cases either.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Also if your on shore power a lot this would be very bad for lithium as they like to be active and keeping them charged at 100% all time will seriously degrade them.  So yes lithium are suitable for a good number of boats, but not in a good number of cases either.

Do they need different chargers to standard lead acid batteries? 

 

The salesman was suggesting that his imported batteries had some kind of built in circuit board that allowed use of ordinary charging devices. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by rusty69

[Robbo]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Do they need different chargers to standard lead acid batteries? 

 

The salesman was suggesting that his imported batteries had some kind of built in circuit board that allowed used if ordinary charging devices. 

The Relion's have a BMS (battery management system) built in (which is the circuit board he mentioned).  Ones from Victron need the BMS, for which they have two types.   The charging is very much like a AGM charge so can be set to this setting if you don't have a custom option on your charger.   The BMS basically protects the battery from totally discharge (you should never totally discharge lithium cells, as well as over voltage protection, etc.).   I'm looking at the Relions as they are a drop in replacement give or take a charger setting.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

The Relion's have a BMS (battery management system) built in (which is the circuit board he mentioned).  Ones from Victron need the BMS, for which they have two types.   The charging is very much like a AGM charge so can be set to this setting if you don't have a custom option on your charger.   The BMS basically protects the battery from totally discharge (you should never totally discharge lithium cells, as well as over voltage protection, etc.).   I'm looking at the Relions as they are a drop in replacement give or take a charger setting.

So you need a BMS on each battery in the bank??

 

What sort of quotes are you getting for say the equivalent 110Ah lead acid battery? 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

So you need a BMS on each battery in the bank??

 

What sort of quotes are you getting for say the equivalent 110Ah lead acid battery? 

The BMS also balancies the cells so in theory yes you need a BMS for every battery,  looking at Victron they have a BMS in each battery (they call is BTV) that's connected to a controller (they call BMS).  

Quotes are around 1000-1200% the ah of the battery (c20/12v), so a 100ah battery is around £1000 (although I've just seen it for £950), so they are roughly x10 the cost of liesure.

 

[rusty69]

Just now, Robbo said:

The BMS also balancies the cells so in theory yes you need a BMS for every battery,  looking at Victron they have a BMS in each battery (they call is BTV) that's connected to a controller (they call BMS).  

Quotes are around 1000-1200% the ah of the battery (c20/12v), so a 100ah battery is around £1000 (although I've just seen it for £950), so they are roughly x10 the cost of liesure.

 

Interesting stuff. How many would you consider buying to replace your existing bank, and how many in that bank? 

[Robbo]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Interesting stuff. How many would you consider buying to replace your existing bank, and how many in that bank? 

They do up to 300ah batteries.   I would need to see how big I want the bank when I've done some power consumption daily figures (I'm still fitting out and using Trojan batteries which still have a lot of life in them).   I think around 400ah bank from a couple of 200ah batteries sounds right.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Robbo said:

they are roughly x10 the cost of liesure.

So for the boater who currently looks after his batteries and gets 4 years from them the break-even point for Lithiums would be 40+ years?  I truly don't see the point at today's price points. 

[Robbo]

Just now, WotEver said:

So for the boater who currently looks after his batteries and gets 4 years from them the break-even point for Lithiums would be 40+ years?  I truly don't see the point at today's price points. 

Trojans are around 1600 cycles where lithiums are around 5000 to the same 50% DoD.  So with Trojans you will need to replace 3 times for the same amount of cycles which is roughly the same price of the Relion.  As charging lithium is so much quicker, if your doing via genny then this is the biggest advantage and money saver.