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Non turbo engine oil


DobieJade

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I have no idea where Andrew is coming from on this. API effectively define the performance standards for a particular oil and if Beta require an API CF oil then it matters not a jot what else it may say on the can. API CF is API CF. API CF4 has a different additive pack or perhaps more of the same pack to CF but it is still API CF4 whatever else it says on the can.

 

You could also try looking for API CE oil which has a higher performance standards that CD but lower than CF.

 

I suspect Andrew is concerned about customers thinking the latest Mobile 1 fully synthetic 0w10 in API CJ or something would be best for their engine and was stressing the non-turbo oil as a layman's way of saying a lower API specification oil.

I'm not looking for an oil, I use shire 15w/40 CD, just making the point that the Beta manual is wrong. They specify CF then add, do not use Turbo oils, total contradiction.

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Listers 10w/40 oil is API CC and is not for use in turbo engines. It is available from Mr.Baldock's people at Uxbridge at a fairly reasonable price (other outlets are probably available). Would it not also be ok in a Beta as they specify non-turbo oil?

 

Ditchdabbler

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I'm not looking for an oil, I use shire 15w/40 CD, just making the point that the Beta manual is wrong. They specify CF then add, do not use Turbo oils, total contradiction.

It is not a contradiction for those that understand oil. If something says it is suitable for both turbo and non-turbo and 15W 40 and API CF it means it is OK in both contexts if you need that spec of oil. It does not exclude it from use on a non-turbo only context.

 

By the way whether it says so on tin or not, every can of oil for diesels from and including API CD is suitable for turbo and non-turbo engines.

Edited by churchward
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It is not a contradiction for those that understand oil. If something says it is suitable for both turbo and non-turbo and 15W 40 and API CF it means it is OK in both contexts if you need that spec of oil. It does not exclude it from use on a non-turbo only context.

 

By the way whether it says so on tin or not, every can of oil for diesels from and including API CD is suitable for turbo and non-turbo engines.

 

For those who think they understand oil, but know somewhat less, there is no contradiction on the tin CF oil is CF oil. The contradiction is in the Beta manual, they specify an oil that is turbo/non-turbo then state, but don't use turbo oil, don't you get it?

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For those who think they understand oil, but know somewhat less, there is no contradiction on the tin CF oil is CF oil. The contradiction is in the Beta manual, they specify an oil that is turbo/non-turbo then state, but don't use turbo oil, don't you get it?

'turbo/non turbo oil' isn't the same as 'turbo oil' and 'non-turbo oil'. Would you like a Venn diagram?

 

If Beta says an oil 'suitable for both' is OK, it's OK. The company is seeking (perhaps rather clumsily) to prevent the use of specific turbodiesel lubricating oil, ie synthetic stuff.

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For those who think they understand oil, but know somewhat less, there is no contradiction on the tin CF oil is CF oil. The contradiction is in the Beta manual, they specify an oil that is turbo/non-turbo then state, but don't use turbo oil, don't you get it?

I understand very well thank you. I agree CF is CF that is the point of a std. I am pointing out CD spec is also suitable for turbo engines it is imbedded in the spec.

 

talking about non turbo and turbo oil is not a recognised differentiator of oil specifically and an oil that is labelled as suitable for both is OK in a non-turbo context. You are assuming it is not which is incorrect.

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I understand very well thank you. I agree CF is CF that is the point of a std. I am pointing out CD spec is also suitable for turbo engines it is imbedded in the spec.

 

talking about non turbo and turbo oil is not a recognised differentiator of oil specifically and an oil that is labelled as suitable for both is OK in a non-turbo context. You are assuming it is not which is incorrect.

You still don't get it! I'm not talking about non turbo and turbo oil as a differentiator BETA ARE!

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You still don't get it! I'm not talking about non turbo and turbo oil as a differentiator BETA ARE!

I do, they are not saying what you think it means.

 

two of us have tried to put you right and you won't see the point being made so we should leave it there.

 

BTW I have a Beta engine in my boat so I am familiar with it and the manual

Edited by churchward
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The difference between turbo oil and any other is that it will work at higher temperatures and not coke and also it will scavenge dirt particles better. If you cannot decide which oil to use then look and see if you have a turbo-supercharger. If not an SAE 30 will suffice.

 

if you put turbo oil into a dirty engine, you will need to change the oil and filter after a couple of hours.

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Threads can go round and round in circles, and "what type of oil" topics are always a good one for loads of posts.

I regularly visit a US car forum and these guys get really a**l about their oil. Nothing but the very best Mobil one 0W will do, and they change it every 5000 miles.

Given that the cars are just ordinary road veh-icles with a service interval of 12,000 mile it seems a bit unnecessary..

 

My point is that for Beta/Nanni / Kubota engines

15/40 CD-CF specification and provided that it's not formulated SPECIFICALLY for heavy duty Turbo engines (ordinary turbo diesel spec is fine)

 

Straight 30 is also on the list, but I'd be bothered about it's detergent qualities (very important), and anyway it's quite expensive, not to mention it might be a struggle to start in the cold winter - that's where multigrades are better.

 

Much, much,much more important it is to change the oil regularly, every year or every 200 hours depending on your use.

Beta tend (well they did on mine) to fit a larger sump - 10 litres which makes the frequency of oil changes less of an issue.

 

FWIW Esso make most of the base lube feedstocks available in the UK, pass it to a small number of blenders, who mix it to standard specifications Plus "factor X" extras to make it "that special difference" (IMHO all smoke 'n mirrors).

 

Trust me I've been in the industry.

Do buy whatever makes you happy; I'll do likewise :lol:

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two of us have tried to put you right and you won't see the point being made so we should leave it there.

 

I don't need putting right, Beta's oil spec is confusing, probably some hassle from posting a personal Email but here's an opinion from somebody confused by Beta's oil requirement when sourcing oil.

 

From: Utton, Brian [mailto:brian.Edited out.com]

Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:00 PM

To: Andrew Winton

Subject: RE: Beta Marine

 

 

 

Hi Andrew

 

 

 

The only points I would make are:

 

 

 

The first statement would make more sense for me if it said something like “An engine oil meeting API CD, CE or CF…..”

 

 

 

This is based on the fact that API CD has lower properties than API CE which in turn is lower than CF, so by saying “minimum properties of CF (CD, CE)”, you’re really saying minimum properties of CD and not putting a maximum on the API performance, opening the door to commercial vehicle oils which are above API CF (e.g. API CG-4 CH-4) which are highly additised and therefore not really ideal for your application.

 

 

 

With the changes in ACEA specifications happening now, a lot of the mineral oils on the market will become part-synthetic to meet the improved performance requirements of the new specs. So mineral oils may become more difficult to find. Personally I would expect the new part-synthetic 15W-40 products to be just as suitable as the current mineral products.

 

 

 

We currently sell a 15W-40 mineral product called Castrol GTX High Mileage 15W-40. This will become part-synthetic as explained above but we may introduce a basic GTX 15W-40 mineral product to maintain a mineral offer. Whether other companies will take the same approach I can’t say.

 

 

 

As discussed, the idea of avoiding additives and fully synthetic oils is reasonable based on the type of light throttle, constant speed use often experienced by marine engines.

 

 

 

I hope this helps. If you need anything further, just let me know.

 

 

 

Regards.

 

 

 

 

Brian Utton

Castrol Limited

Technical Manager

 

Automotive Lubricants UK & Ireland

 

Phone: +44 (0)1793 452673

 

Edited to remove Email address

Edited by Radio-Ga-Ga
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Strikes me it would help if Beta listed specific makes and brands of suitable oils for their engines!

 

Edited to add: But then we would have nothing to talk about!! :lol:

Edited by Tim
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Oh the technicals!!

 

Mention was made of motorists and 'oil is oil'. I have run motorcycles for over three quarters of a million miles over twenty years. Not one of my bikes ran less that 120,000miles (Honda's - they wore out the quickest). The BMW ran for 211,000 and was sold running perfectly to an AA man. The present Guzzi has 308,000miles on it - nearly thirteen times around the World in effect - original crank, mains and big ends, Small ends, pistons and barrels have been replaced due to valve failure through fatigue (an inherent fault). I have changed the oil at something between 5,000 and 8,000mile intervals. The oil I have used in all of the bikes has been the cheapest I could find, Tesco's, B&Q, Wilkinson's, with the exception of a short spell with Duckhams Q, and one semi-synthetic. One major factor that increases longevity is running them continuously, and fewer cold starts for a given mileage.

 

There are certain engines that require definite chemical constituents - high detergent, and those with turbos, and grades will need changing for extremes of ambient temperature, but I also believe that the non technically minded are falling prey to the oil companies spec, jargon, and promotional propaganda to a great extent.

 

I once fell into conversation with a test crew whose job was to run engines on a test bed to destruction testing oils - picture an exhaust manifold yellow from the exhaust port to cherry red three feet further along. One of the telling comments they made, was not to use synthetic oils in engines that were designed to run air cooled, as the increased tolerances were less well compensated for with such oil, and in engines with roller bearings on the crank, main, and anywhere else due to the long chain polymers being able to 'trip up' the rollers and cause them to slide instead of rotate.

 

Challenge this if you will, but I know which oils I shall continue using.

 

Derek.

 

PS Go into any motorcycle shop and check out the oils in one litre bottles designed 'especially' for motorcycle engines - over £6 a litre! Suckers!

Edited by Derek R.
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I don't need putting right, Beta's oil spec is confusing, probably some hassle from posting a personal Email but here's an opinion from somebody confused by Beta's oil requirement when sourcing oil.

 

From: Utton, Brian [mailto:brian.Edited out.com]

Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:00 PM

To: Andrew Winton

Subject: RE: Beta Marine

 

 

 

Hi Andrew

 

 

 

The only points I would make are:

 

 

 

The first statement would make more sense for me if it said something like “An engine oil meeting API CD, CE or CF…..”

 

 

 

This is based on the fact that API CD has lower properties than API CE which in turn is lower than CF, so by saying “minimum properties of CF (CD, CE)”, you’re really saying minimum properties of CD and not putting a maximum on the API performance, opening the door to commercial vehicle oils which are above API CF (e.g. API CG-4 CH-4) which are highly additised and therefore not really ideal for your application.

 

 

 

With the changes in ACEA specifications happening now, a lot of the mineral oils on the market will become part-synthetic to meet the improved performance requirements of the new specs. So mineral oils may become more difficult to find. Personally I would expect the new part-synthetic 15W-40 products to be just as suitable as the current mineral products.

 

 

 

We currently sell a 15W-40 mineral product called Castrol GTX High Mileage 15W-40. This will become part-synthetic as explained above but we may introduce a basic GTX 15W-40 mineral product to maintain a mineral offer. Whether other companies will take the same approach I can’t say.

 

 

 

As discussed, the idea of avoiding additives and fully synthetic oils is reasonable based on the type of light throttle, constant speed use often experienced by marine engines.

 

 

 

I hope this helps. If you need anything further, just let me know.

 

 

 

Regards.

 

 

 

 

Brian Utton

Castrol Limited

Technical Manager

 

Automotive Lubricants UK & Ireland

 

Phone: +44 (0)1793 452673

 

Edited to remove Email address

So what? none of this is answering the OPs question. It is very easy to interpret the manual and what it really means with just a little sense and knowledge.

 

So as I said before why not just let it go?

 

For our purposes in a narrowboat a Beta engine in my opinion it is best to run on a 10W 40 or 15W 40 oil with an API spec of CC to CF (not higher) and mineral oil based. both API CD and CF spec oils are designed to be used for turbo and non-turbo engines. My preference is for CF spec, The engine will run a little cleaner and give the oil filter the best chance of trapping the contaminants. Then again I do not run my engine at idle for hours charging batteries. If someone does do that they might be better at a CC spec oil but at the risk of opening a can of worms as long as the engine has been run in correctly the chances of bore glazing are very low. If you do use a CC oil I would (as I explained futher up) at least use a higher spec API every few changes to clean the sump and oilways.

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So what? none of this is answering the OPs question. It is very easy to interpret the manual and what it really means with just a little sense and knowledge.

 

So as I said before why not just let it go?

 

Nobody likes to be told the're wrong when the're not, the reason we are having this "debate" is because Beta's oil specification is open to interpretation, it shouldn't be, it should be clear to anybody, from somebody doing their first oil change to the guy selling the oil, and to do that all they needed to do was stick to API specification.

 

Beta say:

"Engine oil quality should have the minimum properties of the American Petroleum Institute “API” classification CF (CD, or CE)."

 

A minumum of CF followed by (CD or CE) which one is it? then confuse even more by stating Do not use ‘Turbo Diesel Oil’ after saying a minumum of CF? or was it (CD orCE)?

 

What I think Beta indended to say is

"choose an oil with a minimum api specifation of CD and a maximum of CF"

 

If that's what you think they indended to say why didn't they, and why did we need to debate it?

 

Thats it, I'll let it go now.

 

Edited to complete unfinished post due to lost signal, again!

Edited by Radio-Ga-Ga
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It was a weird engine noone's ever heard of - Matador 1.8, 4 cylinders.

As an aside:-

 

Could this be an Indian? BMC 1.8 - Try Google (& Google Images) for 'Matador Van'

 

....and from:- http://www.oldbug.com/tempo.htm CLICKY

 

"Tempo was forced to re-design their truck and then chose to go with a British Austin water cooled 4 cylinder

for their later models"

 

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_%28car%29#History CLICKY

 

 

Just a thought! :lol:

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And a response from Beta:

 

1.

We do not recommend any particular make of oil , this is as a guide only

 

Basic 15W 40 Mineral oil.

 

Halfords 15W/40 Enhanced Mineral Diesel Oil - 5 litres

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/...tegoryId_165581

API CF-4 CF SJ

ACEA B2 E2

 

Duckhams Q 15w-40 Mineral Diesel Engine Oil - 5 Litres

API CF ACEA B3

http://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/index.php?mai...roducts_id=1317

 

 

2.

Re lubricating oils in your engines the basics are:

 

when using fuels which have a high sulphur content you need to use an oil with a high total base number (TBN) which is the rating that shows how much detergent the oil has to counteract the acids from the sulphur, Kubota recommend a TBN of 10 or higher, the problem is it won't be listed on the oil container but the CF grade that we specify has the necessary detergent additives. Detergent by the way means metal based additives, sodium magnesium etc.

 

Later grades of oil have been developed for high speed, highly stressed units with long service intervals that use lower sulphur fuels. If these later oils have high TBN they will have both the newer standard CF4 upto CJ4 on the container as well as CF.

 

The 4 just refers to 4stroke, If the oil doesn't have the CF standard then when the fuel used is a high sulphur type the oil should be changed at shorter intervals to maintain the detergent level. If the engine is run on low sulphur, standard pump fuel, the later oils can be used without reference to the CF grade.

 

I have attached a link to show road fuel sulphur levels, the waterways fuels will probably be higher but I imagine you will have some contacts who can give you more information on that.

 

The attached oil data doc is from our older Application Manual the latest one includes a reference to EGR engines etc which does not apply to you at the moment.

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