Engine Headaches

[FORTUNATA]

You can't get a socket on the bolts as conventional ones don't fit. Insufficient space. Not even ring spanners. I didn't damage the nuts as I was too wary and forced it in fits and starts.

However, the whole removal plan is on hold till I can figure a few things out. I only loosened the nuts a bit. I deduced that access for engine cleaning at this stage is really pretty good, even some of the oilways which turned out to be clear. Therefore, I'm researching chemical flushing agents combined with use of small brushes before I do any more pulling apart. I was also wondering about using either diesel in the sump and spinning the engine with injectors out for a while and then redraining the sump. Then there are residual flushing agents I don't know too much about at this stage. These are supposed to break down deposits.

What I did learn was from the oil pump, oil goes directly to the filter and then passes to the cylinder head. After that oil flows to the block and has to lubricate bearings, cylinders and so on.

Some people have used parafin as a cleanser but I'd consider that a bit risky.

 

I've been wondering about that comment by Fortunata. Personally, I'd be using a breaker bar:

 

 

It's the reference to spanners that worries me, not to sockets - which again is what I'd be using to avoid damaging the bolts

 

Richard

 

"Flywheel removal can also be a pain,"

 

Not as bad as disconnecting an Enfield shaft drive after some decades. I had to use huge iron bars to lever it off and wrecked one spanner as it was left twisted. That was probably the worst job to date.

 

Good god, hasn't he got this engine going yet ??????

 

Flywheel removal can also be a pain, RENT A FLYWHEEL PULLER... You probably won't get it apart any other way. (You could of course heat flywheel with oxy/acetylene, and freeze end of crank with proprietary freezing spray)

[RLWP]

You are going to have to solve the "can't get a socket on the bolts" problem, otherwise you won't be able to tighten the bolts with a torque wrench.

 

Perhaps you need to buy three or four thin-walled sockets.

 

Flushing agents are for cleaning out working engines, not for cleaning partly dismantled ones. What you will do is force any dirt straight into the bearings. Likewise your brushes are going to dislodge even more rubbish and push that into the bearings, adding to the damage.

 

Please, just take the engine apart and do the job properly. I'm afraid that there is no short cut.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

The bearings are my main concern. The snag is I don't have a workshop or garage to reassemble what I disconnect and that could lead to greater woes. That is, trying to refit a shaft and bearings in those conditions could create more mess than is worth the risk. However, I guess I will make the right decision for my circumstances and I do make a point of talking to pro mechanics when they pass by the yard. I've had different suggestions.

However, I'm more than confident I can remove the shaft with no damage done. It's trying to work in virtual outdoors that's the risk and will have to avoid wind like the plague.

 

 

You are going to have to solve the "can't get a socket on the bolts" problem, otherwise you won't be able to tighten the bolts with a torque wrench.

 

Perhaps you need to buy three or four thin-walled sockets.

 

Flushing agents are for cleaning out working engines, not for cleaning partly dismantled ones. What you will do is force any dirt straight into the bearings. Likewise your brushes are going to dislodge even more rubbish and push that into the bearings, adding to the damage.

 

Please, just take the engine apart and do the job properly. I'm afraid that there is no short cut.

 

Richard

[Albion]

You are going to have to solve the "can't get a socket on the bolts" problem, otherwise you won't be able to tighten the bolts with a torque wrench.

 

Perhaps you need to buy three or four thin-walled sockets.

 

Flushing agents are for cleaning out working engines, not for cleaning partly dismantled ones. What you will do is force any dirt straight into the bearings. Likewise your brushes are going to dislodge even more rubbish and push that into the bearings, adding to the damage.

 

Please, just take the engine apart and do the job properly. I'm afraid that there is no short cut.

 

Richard

 

Richard is quite correct and I would add that cheapo sockets tend to be thick walled to get strength from the cheap material from which they are made. I suspect that if you could buy Snap On sockets you would find that they would do the job as they are fine walled (good quality, you get what you pay for) and fit where others don't. The same goes for ring spanners. During my time running my garage I found that the Snap On rings would get into places that even Britool and other ostensibly good brands would not get into.

Roger

Edited February 11, 2011 by Albion

[sumajan]

Seem to remember reading somewhere that you would have to overhaul your Zdrive.

Found this on another Post about workshop Manuals ( all their hard work - not mine) thought it may come in handy. (I'm not very good yet at doing links etc..)

 

www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/page6.ht.

 

 

 

 

 

John H.

[RLWP]

Seem to remember reading somewhere that you would have to overhaul your Zdrive.

Found this on another Post about workshop Manuals ( all their hard work - not mine) thought it may come in handy. (I'm not very good yet at doing links etc..)

 

www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/page6.ht.

 

 

 

 

 

John H.

 

Good find John. Blue Star Surveys

 

Your link nearly worked, somehow you got .ht. at the end instead of .html . Looks like a small slip in copy and paste

 

Richard

Edited February 11, 2011 by RLWP

[FORTUNATA]

"Overhaul" is one way of putting it. It's in far worse condition than the diesel and I only disconnected it so far. Possibly I can find a way to take it apart later on.

A word about tools: I don't have a great deal. I did buy a valve spring compressor not long ago, a box spanner for injectors, some spined inserts for bolts and I already have plenty of spanners, screwdrivers, wrenches and so on. However, for a vehicle engine you need to go far deeper than that. I suppose much depends on whether I plan to be doing this sort of work as a habit or whether it's just a one off.

 

Seem to remember reading somewhere that you would have to overhaul your Zdrive.

Found this on another Post about workshop Manuals ( all their hard work - not mine) thought it may come in handy. (I'm not very good yet at doing links etc..)

 

www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/page6.ht.

 

 

 

 

 

John H.

[FORTUNATA]

It's sometimes not a bad idea to spend a day or so re-reading manuals as well as swatting up. For example, I didn't know sump oil is pumped directly by the oil pump to the filter (the canister of which had rusted a bit externally).

I did buy a few tooth brushes as I've been cleaning the insides of the block as well as scrubbing the block outside to get it all looking ship shape. A lot of my work lately has been simply hard work cleaning.

[Naughty Cal]

Richard is quite correct and I would add that cheapo sockets tend to be thick walled to get strength from the cheap material from which they are made. I suspect that if you could buy Snap On sockets you would find that they would do the job as they are fine walled (good quality, you get what you pay for) and fit where others don't. The same goes for ring spanners. During my time running my garage I found that the Snap On rings would get into places that even Britool and other ostensibly good brands would not get into.

Roger

 

Plus you get a lifetime warranty on the Snap On tools. Maybe not so essential for your average man in the street but hugely important if it is your job.

[Albion]

Plus you get a lifetime warranty on the Snap On tools. Maybe not so essential for your average man in the street but hugely important if it is your job.

 

Yes that's quite right Phylis. Sometimes you get lifetime warranties on cheaper ranges as well but, that's still no use if you can't get the socket/ring spanner in where it's required.

I wouldn't advise trying to buy a large number of Snap On products unless you are a professional though, as they are very expensive for low usage requirement. I remember a single rack of 3/8" drive standard depth sockets from 6mm to 22mm costing me over £100 and that was back in the early 90s. In this case, perhaps the purchase of one or two SO sockets for the difficult access and high torque requirements might be money well spent. The only trouble is that you've got to find a dealer. Hover around a garage for a week and you'll see a van ('cos they're a franchise) pull up

Roger

[FORTUNATA]

The way I make do with an open ended spanner is thus: Lubricate the stubborn nut with WD 40 or some similar spray on. Place the spanner tight around the nut. Bang the very base of the spanner hard with a hammer, not the handle. This vibrates the nut a little on the thread. Apply brute force and try to move the nut bearing down but wear thick gloves in case something slips. If no movement, a good way is to then get a big iron bar, hold the spanner tight and wack the handle of the spanner a few times. That really shakes the nut up. Apply brute force again but stop if it seems there's risk of damaging the nut. Usually at some point it will begin to move.

 

Yes that's quite right Phylis. Sometimes you get lifetime warranties on cheaper ranges as well but, that's still no use if you can't get the socket/ring spanner in where it's required.

I wouldn't advise trying to buy a large number of Snap On products unless you are a professional though, as they are very expensive for low usage requirement. I remember a single rack of 3/8" drive standard depth sockets from 6mm to 22mm costing me over £100 and that was back in the early 90s. In this case, perhaps the purchase of one or two SO sockets for the difficult access and high torque requirements might be money well spent. The only trouble is that you've got to find a dealer. Hover around a garage for a week and you'll see a van ('cos they're a franchise) pull up

Roger

[Naughty Cal]

Yes that's quite right Phylis. Sometimes you get lifetime warranties on cheaper ranges as well but, that's still no use if you can't get the socket/ring spanner in where it's required.

I wouldn't advise trying to buy a large number of Snap On products unless you are a professional though, as they are very expensive for low usage requirement. I remember a single rack of 3/8" drive standard depth sockets from 6mm to 22mm costing me over £100 and that was back in the early 90s. In this case, perhaps the purchase of one or two SO sockets for the difficult access and high torque requirements might be money well spent. The only trouble is that you've got to find a dealer. Hover around a garage for a week and you'll see a van ('cos they're a franchise) pull up

Roger

 

Yep. The OH works in a car body shop and has a Snap On tool chest full of Snap on tools. The Snap on man comes around every week and every week they buy something else from him. We gave in adding up what his tools have cost, but it is his job so he gets his money worth from them.

[Albion]

The way I make do with an open ended spanner is thus: Lubricate the stubborn nut with WD 40 or some similar spray on. Place the spanner tight around the nut. Bang the very base of the spanner hard with a hammer, not the handle. This vibrates the nut a little on the thread. Apply brute force and try to move the nut bearing down but wear thick gloves in case something slips. If no movement, a good way is to then get a big iron bar, hold the spanner tight and wack the handle of the spanner a few times. That really shakes the nut up. Apply brute force again but stop if it seems there's risk of damaging the nut. Usually at some point it will begin to move.

 

I suppose that I got spoilt but, running a garage business, I got used to air tool impact drivers and nut runners, 6 point impact sockets and so on where required. We rarely had a nut we couldn't move or a rounded nut. Flank drive sockets, such as Snap On, are also a much better tool than a conventional bi-hex socket. Not sure it would be easy to go back to DIYing it in my house garage now though when you've been used to all the kit

Roger

 

Yep. The OH works in a car body shop and has a Snap On tool chest full of Snap on tools. The Snap on man comes around every week and every week they buy something else from him. We gave in adding up what his tools have cost, but it is his job so he gets his money worth from them.

 

A mans got to have what a mans got to have. The size of a mechanic's Snap On box of tools gives you bragging rights over others so look on it as a good investment but NEVER try to add up the cost except for insurance purposes.

Roger

[Naughty Cal]

A mans got to have what a mans got to have. The size of a mechanic's Snap On box of tools gives you bragging rights over others so look on it as a good investment but NEVER try to add up the cost except for insurance purposes.

Roger

 

I shall let Liam know you have called him a grease monkey, that should amuse him.

 

He does the body work not mechanicals

[RLWP]

The way I make do with an open ended spanner is thus: Lubricate the stubborn nut with WD 40 or some similar spray on. Place the spanner tight around the nut. Bang the very base of the spanner hard with a hammer, not the handle. This vibrates the nut a little on the thread. Apply brute force and try to move the nut bearing down but wear thick gloves in case something slips. If no movement, a good way is to then get a big iron bar, hold the spanner tight and wack the handle of the spanner a few times. That really shakes the nut up. Apply brute force again but stop if it seems there's risk of damaging the nut. Usually at some point it will begin to move.

 

You'r making me cringe with that description. I can remember all the disasters I've had in the past with rounded off bolts (which are then useless), spread spanners and worse of all the cuts and blood from slipped spanners.

 

I would invest in a few sockets an extension and a breaker bar. You probably only need three or four sockets. You are going to need them to use the torque wrench.

 

Richard

[Albion]

I shall let Liam know you have called him a grease monkey, that should amuse him.

 

He does the body work not mechanicals

 

Cheeky sod, what's wrong with mechanics then?!!!! We're actually a skilled branch of the trade doing real hi-tech diagnosis, as opposed to those that just put a new panel on to a car and spray it!!! (There, that should have put the cat among the pigeons)

I'm going to start a long running and aggressive thread, now that you've dared to refer to me as a grease monkey, a very abusive and non PC term. This could get really serious you know. "Mechanics of the world unite" against this abuse.

Roger

Edited February 11, 2011 by Albion

[Naughty Cal]

Cheeky sod, what's wrong with mechanics then?!!!! We're actually a skilled branch of the trade doing real hi-tech diagnosis, as opposed to those that just put a new panel on to a car and spray it!!! (There, that should have put the cat among the pigeons)

I'm going to start a long running and aggressive thread, now that you've dared to refer to me as a grease monkey, a very abusive and non PC term. This could get really serious you know. "Mechanics of the world unite" against this abuse.

Roger

 

Nah. He doesnt do any of that modern, panel on, panel off crap. He does proper panel beating on real cars. Current project is a 1984 Porsche 911 Turbo.

 

The garage he works for has a mixture of modern and old cars and panel beaters that work on either the old or new stuff.

 

(He doesnt do much spraying either. )

 

Here is their website:

 

John Bee Motor Engineers

 

In fact Liams ugly mug is on there working on the last Porsche they restored

[RLWP]

Having done a bit of both, mechanics is science whereas panel work is an art, and a black art at that

 

Richard

 

Paint is just witchcraft

[Albion]

Nah. He doesnt do any of that modern, panel on, panel off crap. He does proper panel beating on real cars. Current project is a 1984 Porsche 911 Turbo.

 

The garage he works for has a mixture of modern and old cars and panel beaters that work on either the old or new stuff.

 

(He doesnt do much spraying either. )

 

Here is their website:

 

John Bee Motor Engineers

 

In fact Liams ugly mug is on there working on the last Porsche they restored

 

Ah, that's better then. Real restoration with real panel beaters. That's more like it. Like the Porsche BTW, it looks to be a good job.

Spraying is a specialism, I agree, and it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Roger

[FORTUNATA]

I've got some sockets. I need far more tools than I have because I'm working on a modern engine. If I ever get people to help me I make sure they wrap their hands in rags in case something slips. I do the same myself. The thing with an open spanner is you have to guage at what point force is excessive and back off. A good bang on a the spanner and some penetrating oil should do the trick.

 

You'r making me cringe with that description. I can remember all the disasters I've had in the past with rounded off bolts (which are then useless), spread spanners and worse of all the cuts and blood from slipped spanners.

 

I would invest in a few sockets an extension and a breaker bar. You probably only need three or four sockets. You are going to need them to use the torque wrench.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

There really is a definite metamorphosis taking place. I've been working on the cylinders and carefully cleaning off black carbon at the tops of the bores. This is because I don't want the new rings getting clogged again in any way, although I take the point the upper areas of the bores are free from ring activity. Still, oil passes around the area so I'm cleaning it all up carefully. I use newspaper to indicate how much carbon stain is coming off.

I noticed something I should have done before. The cylinder head gasket was clogged. The perforations around joint edges had some totally solid areas so no passage between block and head. Whether it was heat or what I can't say. Probably carbon and dirt.

When I first saw the cylinders and piston crowns I figured I'd be wasting my time. Now it's starting to resemble a real engine and I'm far more optimistic. In some ways it's like slowly rolling back the clock, chipping away at each problem. The good news is also I've spent little money so far. That's good because the truth is still being out of work money is a problem.

[FORTUNATA]

UPDATE:

O.K.it could well be my problems have multiplied. I cleaned up the cylinders and now it seems I have a pretty decent lip at the thrust side of the bore near the top. According to my manual, such a ridge is a preliminary sign of cylinder wear. Thus, it could well be the case I may be looking at rebore work although before I jump the gun I need to do tests with a micrometer. These they sell at Machine Mart.

If it turns out a rebore is needed it's highly likely I'll bung another engine in the boat and sort this one out over a longer period of time.

For now I'll get a micrometer.

P.S. I sort of expected some wear and it may be the lip won't be bad enough to demand rebore work.

 

 

There really is a definite metamorphosis taking place. I've been working on the cylinders and carefully cleaning off black carbon at the tops of the bores. This is because I don't want the new rings getting clogged again in any way, although I take the point the upper areas of the bores are free from ring activity. Still, oil passes around the area so I'm cleaning it all up carefully. I use newspaper to indicate how much carbon stain is coming off.

I noticed something I should have done before. The cylinder head gasket was clogged. The perforations around joint edges had some totally solid areas so no passage between block and head. Whether it was heat or what I can't say. Probably carbon and dirt.

When I first saw the cylinders and piston crowns I figured I'd be wasting my time. Now it's starting to resemble a real engine and I'm far more optimistic. In some ways it's like slowly rolling back the clock, chipping away at each problem. The good news is also I've spent little money so far. That's good because the truth is still being out of work money is a problem.

[FORTUNATA]

This has all been very educational and I feel I've learned a lot. I also finally know why the egine wouldn't start. Now the choice is whether to choose a new engine or spend a lot more money than I need to but see the project through.

Obviously if I fit new rings and put iot back together it will start but if the bores are worn a bit compression problems will resurface later.

[RLWP]

UPDATE:

O.K.it could well be my problems have multiplied. I cleaned up the cylinders and now it seems I have a pretty decent lip at the thrust side of the bore near the top. According to my manual, such a ridge is a preliminary sign of cylinder wear. Thus, it could well be the case I may be looking at rebore work although before I jump the gun I need to do tests with a micrometer. These they sell at Machine Mart.

If it turns out a rebore is needed it's highly likely I'll bung another engine in the boat and sort this one out over a longer period of time.

For now I'll get a micrometer.

P.S. I sort of expected some wear and it may be the lip won't be bad enough to demand rebore work.

 

I was interested to see, so I looked for an Internal micrometer on the Machine Mart website. I can't find one, have you got a link?

 

I can find a Starrett one at Tools4trade for £185

 

 

Richard

 

MORE: The imperial ones are cheaper at £135

Edited February 21, 2011 by RLWP

[WotEver]

The imperial ones are cheaper

How daft is that?

 

Tony