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I have been sent some old photos of Chertsey, which I have posted on the blog here, if anyone's interested. Any additional info/comments/speculation welcome as always.

There are a couple of others here too.

 

edited to say - I did make sure to get permission to post them!

Edited by Chertsey
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I have been sent some old photos of Chertsey, which I have posted on the blog here, if anyone's interested. Any additional info/comments/speculation welcome as always.

There are a couple of others here too.

 

edited to say - I did make sure to get permission to post them!

The mention of oak shelves Colne Library did make me think how Richard acquired the timber. In the mid-1970s, Chertsey was moored in Burscough. Two of the Lawsons, a well-known local boating family, operated a reclaimed timber yard next to Great Score swing bridge, and I suspect that the timber came via them. Richard and I did get some oak from a pile of lockgates which the local section inspector, Bill Mason, said we could have. The bonfire afterwards was quite spectacular, and we loaded the scrap ironwork onto Chertsey for delivery to a convenient scrap yard. I am still owed for my share!

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I have been sent some old photos of Chertsey, which I have posted on the blog here, if anyone's interested. Any additional info/comments/speculation welcome as always.

There are a couple of others here too.

 

edited to say - I did make sure to get permission to post them!

The mention of oak shelves Colne Library did make me think how Richard acquired the timber. In the mid-1970s, Chertsey was moored in Burscough. Two of the Lawsons, a well-known local boating family, operated a reclaimed timber yard next to Great Score swing bridge, and I suspect that the timber came via them. Richard and I did get some oak from a pile of lockgates which the local section inspector, Bill Mason, said we could have. The bonfire afterwards was quite spectacular, and we loaded the scrap ironwork onto Chertsey for delivery to a convenient scrap yard. I am still owed for my share!

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I have been sent some old photos of Chertsey, which I have posted on the blog here, if anyone's interested. Any additional info/comments/speculation welcome as always.

There are a couple of others here too.

 

edited to say - I did make sure to get permission to post them!

 

In your blog you state:

 

"But the scars on the engine room roof suggest that at some point a third engine was fitted."

 

I think I can probably explain this, at least by recalling the 'scars' on BADSEY's engine room roof which I stripped back to clean steel in 1988.

 

The original position for the National 2DM exhaust was directly in front of the pigeon box for which there should be a welded up hole (possibly two holes in line as there was also a ventilator by the exhaust shrouded by a funnel). Some, but not all motor boats had the National 2DM exhaust repositioned to the right of the pigeon box (looking ahead from stood on the counter). I do not know when or why this was done, and only done on some motors. When 'British Waterways' fitted the Petter PD2's they moved the exhaust again - same side of the roof but near to the forward engine room bulkhead, as well as removing and welding up the right hand engine room slide which was replaced by a ventilator and cover where the hot air comes comes out of the engine.

 

As always, there were a couple of exceptions to the above 'British Waterways' PD2 alterations with some boats retaining a central exhaust position and both engine room slides with the hot air being exhausted from the engine via a grille in the upper section of the engine room bulkhead. I think this was the earlier method and the paragraph above the later and 'normal' method.

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The original position for the National 2DM exhaust was directly in front of the pigeon box for which there should be a welded up hole (possibly two holes in line as there was also a ventilator by the exhaust shrouded by a funnel).

The ventilation hole being for the chemical toilet, which had a vent pipe run from it at its location at the rear engine room bulkhead to the fitting on the roof - if I recall correctly from some plans I saw back in the 1970s. And thus any odour from the toilet was vented up the liner funnel, perhaps encouraged skywards by the engine exhaust in some sort of venturi principle. Or at least, that must have been the plan. Alternatively, given a low bridge or a tunnel the downdraught might have filled the toilet with exhaust fumes, doubtless to the consternation of whoever was trying to use it at the time. Have no boatmen passed down stories of this over the years, I've never heard any? Small Woolwich motor Southern Cross certainly had evidence of these two plated-over holes in the engine room roof when I owned the boat 30 years ago.

 

 

Steve

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Here's a photo of the engine room roof - and lots of comments clearing up some of the confusion. I would be fascinated to know how the toilet set-up was meant to work - when it was introduced and how long it lasted (Woolfit for example only ever refers to having a bucket). Did it not work very well? Was it not popular? (too complicated?)
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Here's a photo of the engine room roof - and lots of comments clearing up some of the confusion. I would be fascinated to know how the toilet set-up was meant to work - when it was introduced and how long it lasted (Woolfit for example only ever refers to having a bucket). Did it not work very well? Was it not popular? (too complicated?)

 

Your photograph of CHERTSEY's engine room roof is exactly as I was trying to describe it (above).

 

I am very sceptical about the ventilator being for a chemical toilet for a number of reasons:-

 

1 - for the ventilator to be effective it must have been trunked to an enclosed cubicle, unless it was trunked into the wet section of the toilet.

 

2 - I have seen the inside loads of G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. engine rooms and have seen no evidence of trunking, nor have I heard it ever refered to by the boaters.

 

3 - there were not the 'user freindly' chemicals around back in the 1930's for this sort of use (I have heard of Jeyes fluid and a bucket) - and certainly no Sanitary Station's to empty the toilet once it became full.

 

4 - why would the boaters want to carry their s*** around with them when they could simply empty a used bucket over the side of the boat after a single use. After all was the canal not polluted with the deposits left behind a horse let alone factory waste !

 

5 - who cares if the engine room is a bit stinky for a few minutes when there is a hot diesel engine running with all of its associated smells in there already.

 

My own view is that the ventilator was to help draw hot air from the top of the engine room, the motive flow being created by the engine exhaust causing a venturi effect within the funnel.

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I am very sceptical about the ventilator being for a chemical toilet for a number of reasons:-

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you Pete, but I have definitely seen plans of an engine room equipped with a chemical toilet that had a pipe running from the back (I think) of the unit to a corresponding vent on the engine room roof immediately forward of the engine exhaust. And as I said, Southern Cross had evidence of such twin fittings, both of which would have made use of the original 'liner' funnel fitted when the boat was new. I admit that I was never able to discern the routing of the pipework, although I did look for evidence of it.

 

I would concede that the boatmen would probably have seen little sense in this new-fangled intrusion into the engine room and that it might quickly have been dispensed with, but that doesn't mean that GUCCCo (or the Public Health authorities) didn't see having a 'proper' toilet in these modern boats as part of the equipment of that time, along with an electric headlamp and a high speed (sic) diesel engine. There were doubltless other applications for chemical toilets around that time so some kind of fluid was surely available. The boatmen would simply have emptied the whole 'bucket' into the canal when it was full. When the liner funnels were eventually replaced by the familiar tall (or short) pipe perhaps by then the chemical toilet had been removed through lack of use and the vent hole was simply plated over.

 

I am surprised that the 'vent' hole in Chertsey's roof is not on the centreline of the roof, as per the exhaust outlet nearby, and I wonder therefore if it was for yet another exhaust outlet. Perhaps the chemical toilets were only fitted to the Star Class boats?

 

Laurence, can you come up with any GUCCCo plans that would shed any light?

 

 

Steve

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Rolt refers to having a 'chemical closet' on Cressy, so clearly such things were available, but I have never seen one referred to in any working boat memoir (always buckets). A bright idea from the top that didn't catch on?

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Very interesting. I cannot imagine why a boatman would wait until a bucket was full until emptying. It's much lighter with a small load, and the contents less obvious when dispatched! It also meant a sweeter engine room (save the smell of engine, which is preferrable). Pipes and trunking in that space - the mind boggles. Bet it went - pronto - if indeed any were fitted. Sometime plans show things that builders rejected, though with holes welded up - who knows.

 

Jeyes fluid - still use it.

 

I'll take some pics of TYCHO's roof this afternoon, there are some interesting welds there. Lacking the correct back cabin vent, Bullseye and pigeon box - but close.

SICKLE had the metal back cabin replaced in wood it appears.

 

Derek

 

PS I don't think CRESSY's accommodation will count. Chemical closet's were I think the general term used when a conventional flush toilet was not available, still probably a bucket in a cupboard.

Edited by Derek R.
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Given that when genuine "bucket and chuck it" (Elsan Bristol) type chemical loos were later fitted to hire boats, no particular arrangements were made to vent them outside, it seems hard to believe that anyone would have bothered with a vent to any bog in a working boat engine room.

 

As the side doors generally stood open, and as there was generally no interconnection to the living space, why would you bother ?

 

Canal-side "Elsan facilities" didn't generally exist until modern times - hire boats came with an "entrenching tool". No boatman was going to stop and dig a hole for their loo contents, when another more obvious way of getting rid of it was ever present.

 

We had a 1960s ex BW "Water Baby" hire cruiser, and even there the sole sanitary arrangements were a bucket, painted up in BW blue.

 

That said some of the 1960s built working boats were built with toilet compartments, but I seem to recall that the arrangement was quickly discontinued on further builds once the public health inspectors realised that on a loaded boat, a full loo could only be carried out through the living space.

 

I seem to recall that the BW drawings that exist, dated about 1956, for future builds of a basically "Grand Union" style boat, did show a couple of feet added to the butty cabin for a toilet area.

 

(Aside: What a shame they never built these - how much more desirable would they be now that a River class boat....)

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Given that when genuine "bucket and chuck it" (Elsan Bristol) type chemical loos were later fitted to hire boats, no particular arrangements were made to vent them outside, it seems hard to believe that anyone would have bothered with a vent to any bog in a working boat engine room.

 

As the side doors generally stood open, and as there was generally no interconnection to the living space, why would you bother ?

 

Canal-side "Elsan facilities" didn't generally exist until modern times - hire boats came with an "entrenching tool". No boatman was going to stop and dig a hole for their loo contents, when another more obvious way of getting rid of it was ever present.

 

We had a 1960s ex BW "Water Baby" hire cruiser, and even there the sole sanitary arrangements were a bucket, painted up in BW blue.

 

That said some of the 1960s built working boats were built with toilet compartments, but I seem to recall that the arrangement was quickly discontinued on further builds once the public health inspectors realised that on a loaded boat, a full loo could only be carried out through the living space.

 

I seem to recall that the BW drawings that exist, dated about 1956, for future builds of a basically "Grand Union" style boat, did show a couple of feet added to the butty cabin for a toilet area.

 

(Aside: What a shame they never built these - how much more desirable would they be now that a River class boat....)

 

1940s Domestic Elsans did have vent pipes from the outer canister. About a 3 inch pipe if I remember correctly. Completely separate from the removable inner container, which was indeed given a generous dollop of Jeyes Fluid before re-use. Getting one in an engine hole would have been fun though. They were much larger than the modern plastic things. If I had as many pounds as I have dug (large) holes for emptying both domestic and scout camps elsans I could afford a new computer!

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Doh! Who forgot his camera!

Couple of old shots of the Northwich arrangement, with interruptions for Petter.

 

035Boats0016Small.jpg

 

The 'eye' bolt through the roof was to connect with a folding hasp on the slide now gone.

The remains of the metal runners are easily seen, and the crescent cutaway is filled in.

 

066Blue001Small.jpg

 

Just visible is a faint circle between the slide runners, a full ten inches in diameter. Any clues? A Bullseye??

 

RoofdetailsketchcroppedSmall.jpg

 

Quick sketch from above. The original Russel Newbery may have come out where the present exhaust comes out. There's a square plate welded beneath the present pipe.

RN's were removed through a removable section of the forward bulkhead, but the Petter is too big for that, so the roof came off, hence the slice and join and the many cross slotted bolts holding it all back on. The handrail was simply cut through.

 

It would appear the Petter exhaust went through a 90° bend and straight up out the roof. That would place it where the two and a half inch welded up hole is seen. The present arrangement takes in two bends and through an absorption silencer up out the centre. Someone called out from the towpath at Braunston in 2008 that he had worked her. They had stuffed a scaffold pole in lieu of an exhaust when the pipe broke - made a nice sound apparently.

 

Old boats - lots of changes.

 

Derek

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I'm sorry to have to disagree with you Pete, but I have definitely seen plans of an engine room equipped with a chemical toilet that had a pipe running from the back (I think) of the unit to a corresponding vent on the engine room roof immediately forward of the engine exhaust. And as I said, Southern Cross had evidence of such twin fittings, both of which would have made use of the original 'liner' funnel fitted when the boat was new. I admit that I was never able to discern the routing of the pipework, although I did look for evidence of it.

 

I would concede that the boatmen would probably have seen little sense in this new-fangled intrusion into the engine room and that it might quickly have been dispensed with, but that doesn't mean that GUCCCo (or the Public Health authorities) didn't see having a 'proper' toilet in these modern boats as part of the equipment of that time, along with an electric headlamp and a high speed (sic) diesel engine. There were doubltless other applications for chemical toilets around that time so some kind of fluid was surely available. The boatmen would simply have emptied the whole 'bucket' into the canal when it was full. When the liner funnels were eventually replaced by the familiar tall (or short) pipe perhaps by then the chemical toilet had been removed through lack of use and the vent hole was simply plated over.

 

I am surprised that the 'vent' hole in Chertsey's roof is not on the centreline of the roof, as per the exhaust outlet nearby, and I wonder therefore if it was for yet another exhaust outlet. Perhaps the chemical toilets were only fitted to the Star Class boats?

 

Laurence, can you come up with any GUCCCo plans that would shed any light?

 

 

Steve

 

I only said that I am sceptical and I have not said they were not fitted so there is currently nothing to disagree with.

 

I have seen numerous narrow boat drawings and plans but do not recall seeing one for a chemical toilet ventilator trunking arrangement, although I am more than happy to accept that a drawing exists. I am however aware that not everything on these drawings made it to final production and it is my view that this is a case in point, but if anybody has any proof I will be happy to review my scepticism. Please bare in mind that I am not disputing the ventilator on the engine room roof that was definately within the original funnel arrangement.

 

I can also confirm that a toilet of any form is not a feature of the Canal Boat Act, and those removed from the 'River Class' butty's must have been based on common sence and decency rather than the wording of the Act. Interestingly one charity currently operating a narrow boat pair have seen fit to place a chemical toilet in their butty's cabin extension (within a cubicle) - directly opposite the cooker and fridge !!!

Edited by pete harrison
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I'm sorry to have to disagree with you Pete, but I have definitely seen plans of an engine room equipped with a chemical toilet that had a pipe running from the back (I think) of the unit to a corresponding vent on the engine room roof immediately forward of the engine exhaust. And as I said, Southern Cross had evidence of such twin fittings, both of which would have made use of the original 'liner' funnel fitted when the boat was new. I admit that I was never able to discern the routing of the pipework, although I did look for evidence of it.

 

I would concede that the boatmen would probably have seen little sense in this new-fangled intrusion into the engine room and that it might quickly have been dispensed with, but that doesn't mean that GUCCCo (or the Public Health authorities) didn't see having a 'proper' toilet in these modern boats as part of the equipment of that time, along with an electric headlamp and a high speed (sic) diesel engine. There were doubltless other applications for chemical toilets around that time so some kind of fluid was surely available. The boatmen would simply have emptied the whole 'bucket' into the canal when it was full. When the liner funnels were eventually replaced by the familiar tall (or short) pipe perhaps by then the chemical toilet had been removed through lack of use and the vent hole was simply plated over.

 

I am surprised that the 'vent' hole in Chertsey's roof is not on the centreline of the roof, as per the exhaust outlet nearby, and I wonder therefore if it was for yet another exhaust outlet. Perhaps the chemical toilets were only fitted to the Star Class boats?

 

Laurence, can you come up with any GUCCCo plans that would shed any light?

 

 

Steve

 

I too agree with Steve. drawings exist of these engine rooms showing the routing of the vent pipe as starboard side up the engine room casing at the bulkead and over to the outlet. I have seen evidence of the fixtures in two GU boats years ago, namely Neptune and Hampstead, these were standard "off the shelf" toilets fitted to many craft of the day, ie trawlers etc and were available from the chandlers who supplied other gear to the builders. As we well know boatmen of that time were not keen on change, however this did not stop many from joining the GU fleet even if, after a while the "traditions" came back. There are numerous minor changes seen in pictures of these boats in the early years, they range from losing the funnel (Very common) to appying BCN style decorations to the castle panels on the doors (only seen one example as yet!)

 

Given that when genuine "bucket and chuck it" (Elsan Bristol) type chemical loos were later fitted to hire boats, no particular arrangements were made to vent them outside, it seems hard to believe that anyone would have bothered with a vent to any bog in a working boat engine room.

 

As the side doors generally stood open, and as there was generally no interconnection to the living space, why would you bother ?

 

Canal-side "Elsan facilities" didn't generally exist until modern times - hire boats came with an "entrenching tool". No boatman was going to stop and dig a hole for their loo contents, when another more obvious way of getting rid of it was ever present.

 

We had a 1960s ex BW "Water Baby" hire cruiser, and even there the sole sanitary arrangements were a bucket, painted up in BW blue.

 

That said some of the 1960s built working boats were built with toilet compartments, but I seem to recall that the arrangement was quickly discontinued on further builds once the public health inspectors realised that on a loaded boat, a full loo could only be carried out through the living space.

 

I seem to recall that the BW drawings that exist, dated about 1956, for future builds of a basically "Grand Union" style boat, did show a couple of feet added to the butty cabin for a toilet area.

 

(Aside: What a shame they never built these - how much more desirable would they be now that a River class boat....)

 

Nice to see the "County" class boats getting a mention - theres always a chance someone will build one!

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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  • 1 month later...
I too agree with Steve. drawings exist of these engine rooms showing the routing of the vent pipe as starboard side up the engine room casing at the bulkead and over to the outlet.

As further evidence I would offer the following video. Pause it at 3m 40s to see the two outlets on the engine room roof of 'Pinner', one for the exhaust and one for the chemical toilet. The boat sounds as if it has the National engine still so it's doubtful that the fitting is a leftover from a previous engine with a different outlet.

 

 

 

Steve

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If you watch the film, rather than the Youtube video, you will see a very good shot of the roof layout around the exhaust where the engine is re-started after a staged breakdown at Linford.

What I find a little odd about the arrangement, is that the alleged toilet vent is offset to the centreline of the boat, not to the starboard side as Laurence has noted in the drawings, but to the port. Moreover, this 'vent' appears to look like some kind of cap to cover the exhaust. But it is very deceptive, it looks like a can within a ring of metal. It may be welded into the roof, but the question now raised is: what weatherproofing was used in such an arrangement, and where is it on Pinner in these shots? If such a venting system was still extant in its whole in these shots, then that would explain its status as seen. But if not, surely it would have been capped with something. Why a 'can'/tube within another ring?

 

Wouldn't the likes of Ron Withy know?

 

Derek

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As further evidence I would offer the following video. Pause it at 3m 40s to see the two outlets on the engine room roof of 'Pinner', one for the exhaust and one for the chemical toilet. The boat sounds as if it has the National engine still so it's doubtful that the fitting is a leftover from a previous engine with a different outlet.

 

 

 

Steve

 

I do not think anybody is disputing that there was a vent in line (or more or less in line) with the exhaust as shown on PINNER @ 3m 40s. The dispute is what the vent was used for. PINNER was still fitted with a National 2DM when this film was made.

 

I would encourage 'enthusiasts' to study this film to see how the Beresford's tie the strings that secure the top cloths in position - very easy, very quick and dead easy to untie. Since seeing this film donkeys years ago I adopted this method as if it was good enough for the Beresford's it is good enough for me.

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Thanks Liam.

 

It's even clearer here at 25:56 than in the previous frame. We see the flange of the engine exhaust as the forward of the two fittings, with beyond it a stub pipe affixed to the engine room roof and complete with an inner pipe poking through. If it was merely a vent for the engine room (and why would that be required with a pigeon box adjacent?) it would not have a pipe through it. This clearly shows that something remote, and linked by pipework, is being vented - the chemical toilet.

 

 

Steve

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Does anyone have any information on a type of chemical toilet of that era that could actually be plumbed in with some kind of fixed vent ?

 

The standard Elsan of the day really was just a galvanised tank like a big bucket, with a seat on top, and where a lid could be inserted between the two to obscure the view of the contents, and keep the smell down a bit.

 

Surely chemical toilets in engine rooms usually end up to one side of the engine or the other, so would you not expect a vent that came out either the right or left hand side of the roof ? Why carry it across to a point where presumably the engine and gearbox would preclude having a loo ?

 

I'm not saying it's not what it is, and if plans actually show it, I suppose it must be, but given the lack of any kind of disposal stations back then, the whole thing sounds decidedly odd to me. Wasn't the norm to get your bodily substances over the side fairly soon after producing them, not to store them in a ventilated container ?

 

EDITED TO NOTE:

 

Sorry, missed the full text of Laurence's reply.

 

Seems he is saying the loo was to one side, but vent routed across to middle. (Why ?)

 

I'd still like to see detail of what is supposed to have sat at the bottom of the pipe, and how you would actually arrange for a bucket and chuck it type "Elsan" (of any type) to vent up a pipe, and still be easily removable for emptying.

Edited by alan_fincher
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That's a tall order Alan, given the relative dearth of photos of working narrowboats (compared to, say, steam locomotives) to ask for chapter and verse on a chemical toilet of the 1930s :lol: Nothing in the two GUC promo books anyway.

 

I purchased a chemical toilet from the then well-known Thomas Foulkes in E17 when I bought Royalty 'Duke' in 1978. The chap behind the counter joked with me that it wasn't often that you could obtain full sanitary accomodation for three pounds fifty. It was, as you note, a heavily-galvanised ribbed 'drum', with a wire handle complete with wooden roller, and a nice one-piece wooden seat. A small container of Elsan Blue completed the facility. There was no provision for a vent pipe, nor, as I recall, any lid.

 

The chemical toilet in the GUCCCo motor boats was as I recall (from the plans I saw many years ago) situated on the port side of the boat. As someone else observed, chemical toilets of that era were chambers in which was installed the bucket, and a vent pipe would have been provided to the chamber, not the bucket. It would have been quite a simple matter to clip the lightweight piping to the angle-iron of the engine room and route it to the liner funnel where the exhaust went out. Neat and convenient. Perhaps the exhaust gases would draw out any noxious smells.

 

I think to dismiss the idea because of a lack of emptying points is to miss the point that these were modern craft with electric light and high speed diesel engines, and one can imagine someone saying "but surely you need to provide a toilet, this is 1935?". Then it was a matter of understanding that the trips only lasted three or four days and the bucket would last that long, and if it didn't there was always the entrenching tool (folding shovel) that was the norm in the early days of hire boats for digging a hole in the canal bank and tipping in the contents of the toilet. It might be frowned upon now, but it was the norm in the 1950s and 60s.

 

 

Steve

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