LPG Pipe

[Biggles]

Hello Oh Wise Ones

 

Hope you are not sick on Easter eggs yet.

 

Is there any legal reason why LPG can't be distributed with flexible pipe like that marked up on the regulator to copper in the gas locker?

 

I also see BES sell braided gas lines BES Linky

 

Biggles

[bottle]

The relevant BSS, (PDF file)

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/...Guide_chap7.pdf

 

It also has to comply with all the British Standard etc.

 

BS 669:1997 ‘Flexible hoses, end fittings and sockets for

gas burning appliances’

 

BS 3212:1991 ‘Specification for flexible rubber tubing,

rubber hose and rubber hose assemblies for use in LPG

vapour phase and LPG/air installations

 

BS EN 1763-1:2001 ‘Rubber and plastics tubing, hoses and

assemblies for use with commercial propane, commercial

butane and their mixtures in the vapour phase’

 

BS EN ISO 7840:2004 ‘Small craft. Fire-resistant

fuel hoses’

 

BS EN ISO 10239:2000 ‘Small craft. Liquefied petroleum

gas (LPG) systems’

 

PD 5482-3:2005 ‘Code of practice for domestic butane and

propane gas-burning installations – Part 3: Installations in

boats, yachts and other vessels’

 

Statutory Instruments 1998 No. 2451 ‘The Gas Safety

(Installations and Use) Regulations 1998’

(www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm#end)

Calor Gas: ‘LPG (Bottled Gas) for Marine Use’

 

Simple answer run it in seamless copper pipe suitable for gas installation.

[Radiomariner]

The relevant BSS, (PDF file)

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/...Guide_chap7.pdf

 

It also has to comply with all the British Standard etc.

 

BS 669:1997 'Flexible hoses, end fittings and sockets for

gas burning appliances'

 

BS 3212:1991 'Specification for flexible rubber tubing,

rubber hose and rubber hose assemblies for use in LPG

vapour phase and LPG/air installations

 

BS EN 1763-1:2001 'Rubber and plastics tubing, hoses and

assemblies for use with commercial propane, commercial

butane and their mixtures in the vapour phase'

 

BS EN ISO 7840:2004 'Small craft. Fire-resistant

fuel hoses'

 

BS EN ISO 10239:2000 'Small craft. Liquefied petroleum

gas (LPG) systems'

 

PD 5482-3:2005 'Code of practice for domestic butane and

propane gas-burning installations – Part 3: Installations in

boats, yachts and other vessels'

 

Statutory Instruments 1998 No. 2451 'The Gas Safety

(Installations and Use) Regulations 1998'

(www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm#end)

Calor Gas: 'LPG (Bottled Gas) for Marine Use'

 

Simple answer run it in seamless copper pipe suitable for gas installation.

 

Regulations quoted above, require that with "all hose systems" each appliance must have it's own hose with an isolation tap in the gas locker. All hose systems are mostly found on small boats with only one appliance. Hose deteriation would always be a worry and require frequent replacement, a pipe system wil probably outlive the boat.

[the grinch]

just to add that gas flexible hoses suitable for LPgas are restricted to 1 metre length so it would be impractiable to use on any boat with a gas line over 2 metres in length

Edited April 4, 2010 by hamsterfan

[NBMike]

I fitted a cooker in a park home just over a year ago. The flexible LPG hose connecting the cooker to the bayonet fitting was leaking this week. There were many small fractures in it. It was brand new in the wrapper when I fitted it. I'd be very wary of using any more flexible hose than is absolutely necessary.

Mike

[Chris Williams]

Hi – the flexible hose in your gas locker is probably marked BS 3212 type 2. Gas regulations do not allow hose of this type to be over 1 metre in length.

 

It’s probably best that you seek advice from a registered marine gas installer and have any gas work undertaken by such a person.

 

Regards

Chris Williams. Marine Gas Installer and Boat Safety Examiner.

[Radiomariner]

just to add that gas flexible hoses suitable for LPgas are restricted to 1 metre length so it would be impractiable to use on any boat with a gas line over 2 metres in length

 

This is not correct. "All Hose" Systems complying to ISO 10239 (Usually found on imported boats) are not restricted in length. They must however, be routed from within the cylinder locker or housing directly to the individual appliance or appliance isolation valve. (As I said in my earlier post)

Edited for typo

Edited April 5, 2010 by Radiomariner

[bag 'o' bones]

10mm copper coil is the way to go. Easy to pull it through as long as you give plenty of room through bulk head holes etc.

 

No need for an expert as long as you follow the BSS to the book.

 

Our DIY gas system was checked by a boat safety examiner and given the thumbs up for a neat and tidy job.

Edited April 5, 2010 by bag 'o' bones

[paulcatchpole]

10mm copper coil is the way to go. Easy to pull it through as long as you give plenty of room through bulk head holes etc.

 

No need for an expert as long as you follow the BSS to the book.

 

Our DIY gas system was checked by a boat safety examiner and given the thumbs up for a neat and tidy job.

 

I've used metric 10mm too, can't be faffing around with random imperial sizes...

 

A mini tube bender has come in useful at times though...

 

Allan's bang on the money with the BSS thought and this:

 

"All Hose" Systems complying to ISO 10239 (Usually found on imported boats) are not restricted in length.

 

It's clearly stated in the BSS and you'll fine some East-West Marine boats, from China, are like this...

 

PC

[Chris Williams]

The BSS does not cover all that is required for correct gas installation and testing and it is clear that it should not be used as a build standard. As well as many other points how does the BSS tell you what size pipework to use and when testing how does it tell you if the pipe work is correctly sized or not.

 

Although it should not be encourage it I guess for many just complying with the minimum standards of the BSS and winging the rest will do. What a way to carry on!

 

Regards Chris

[alan_fincher]

10mm copper coil is the way to go. Easy to pull it through as long as you give plenty of room through bulk head holes etc.

 

No need for an expert as long as you follow the BSS to the book.

 

I've used metric 10mm too, can't be faffing around with random imperial sizes...

Actually, from what I recall, I believe this may be incorrect.

 

I'm fairly certain when I looked into this that if you are sold 10mm seamless copper pipe it is likely to have a wall thickness of only 0.7mm, whereas the standard for LPG piping suitable for a boat requires a 0.8mm wall thickness. (I may have those numbers wrong, but it is something like that).

 

I think the story is that if you are sold seamless 10mm copper pipe, it is more likely to have been manufactured for water use in small bore central heating systems, than to be certified as compliant in an LPG installation for gas. If so it should not be used for gas, I believe.

 

Again, if I recall right, the proper imperial pipe has a substantially fatter wall of something around 0.9mm.

 

I actually believe that the best advice, if you want to be fully compliant, is to do absolutely everything in imperial pipe and fittings. This is what the better chandleries stock, anyway, and even outlets like BES will sell imperial stuff for these applications.

 

There is at least one discount chandler that will try and tell you metric is the way to go, but it is doubtful the pipe he is selling fully meets the actual requirements, And fittings seemed to lack the correct markings. I believe he is simply able to convince people he is selling something cheaper that will do, but that doesn't make it right IMO.

 

I suspect the reason a BSS examiner will still pass it is because externally unless you put a micrometer on it an installation done in imperial will probably look no different from one done in metric.

 

My advice - imperial throughout, with the correctly marked compression fittings, and you should be fine.

 

Of course if it's a long run, and you have enough hung off the end of it, then a 10mm or 3/8" pipe is possibly insufficient anyway. Many boats will actually require 1/2" pipe, to get the maximum flow with no loss of pressure.

 

If any of that is wrong, perhaps one of the several certified LPG installers on here can tell me where I'm incorrect.

[mayalld]

I've used metric 10mm too, can't be faffing around with random imperial sizes...

 

But GAS pipe is imperial. WATER pipe is metric.

 

You cannot use water pipe for gas!

[Iain_S]

New gas fittings are all metric, according to our plumbers' merchant. He sells metric gas pipe, which is thick wall seamless pipe, unlike the 10mm and 8mm water pipes, which are thin wall. 8mm is compatible with 5/16", but I'm not sure if 3/8" has a direct equivalent.

 

Iain

[Guest]

Hello Oh Wise Ones

 

Hope you are not sick on Easter eggs yet.

 

Is there any legal reason why LPG can't be distributed with flexible pipe like that marked up on the regulator to copper in the gas locker?

 

I also see BES sell braided gas lines BES Linky

 

Biggles

I will go for a diplomatic reply:

Unless you are competent in gas fitting, I would strongly recommend that you have any work carried out by a professional. A build up of LPG in bilges can be lethal, and soon accumulates from the smallest of leaks. I don't mean to offend, but the fact that you needed to ask the original question suggests that you may not have the necessary experience.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Guest

[the grinch]

all gas pipe sizing needs to sufficient to ensure a maximum pressure drop of 2.5mbar so a 10mm fit all approach is incorrect as it depends on appliances connected, length of run, number of elbows, couplings etc

 

Copper tube should comply with BSEN1057 and hoses BS3212 for LPG

 

copper is available in both metric and imperial sizes the common metric sizes are 6,10,15,22 & 28

 

 

10mm copper tube will pass enough gas as follows

 

3m 38.4kw

6m 26.1

9m 20.5

12m 17.9

15m 15.5

 

so as you will see the greater the length the less Kw's you can draw

[MtB]

But GAS pipe is imperial. WATER pipe is metric.

 

Not necessarily.

 

 

You cannot use water pipe for gas!

 

Yes you can, just not in boats.

 

There is nothing instrinsically different about the copper tube used to carry water that prevents it being used to carry gas. Exactly the same tube is used in buildings on dry land for both purposes. It's only in boats that there is a difference and that is due to the extra tube wall thickness demanded for gas pipe by the relavent regulations. If metric tube was commercially available with thick enough walls it could be used in boats for gas.

 

Now here's a great question for nerds: What is the difference between pipe and tube? Copper pipe is actually always described as 'tube' if you read the technical literature. Iron pipe is described as 'pipe'. There is a technical difference between pipe and tube. Anyone here know what it is? (I couldn't get it, my lecturer had to tell me.)

 

 

Cheers, Mike

[alan_fincher]

Unless I'm missing something, it still seems to me that the last two answers will appear inconsistent to many people.

 

Mike the Boilerman is saying what I think - only imperial pipe meets the required standard for a boat.

 

Hamsterfan is saying you can use metric pipe for gas, (although doesn't explicitly say he believes this is OK in a boat).

 

I still think the former is correct, but can see why non professionals like me easily get very confused.

 

I don't agree that all new fittings tend to be metric. In my experience both chandleries and the likes of BES generally sell the correctly marked fittings in imperial.

[Guest]

Unless I'm missing something, it still seems to me that the last two answers will appear inconsistent to many people.

 

Mike the Boilerman is saying what I think - only imperial pipe meets the required standard for a boat.

 

Hamsterfan is saying you can use metric pipe for gas, (although doesn't explicitly say he believes this is OK in a boat).

 

I still think the former is correct, but can see why non professionals like me easily get very confused.

 

I don't agree that all new fittings tend to be metric. In my experience both chandleries and the likes of BES generally sell the correctly marked fittings in imperial.

Don't know the ins and outs of what is/isn't correct but I played safe and got all pipe/tube and fittings from the chandlers. IIRC it is 3/8 inch, hence imperial. My previous boat was definitely piped in 10mm.

[WotEver]

Now here's a great question for nerds: What is the difference between pipe and tube?

Pipes are measured according to their internal diameter. Tubing's size is measured from its outside diameter.

 

TonyTheNerd

 

Iron pipe is described as 'pipe'.

Not always.

[RLWP]

Army Pipe Specification

 

1. All pipe is to be made of a long hole surrounded by metal or plastic centred around the hole.
   
2. All pipe is to be hollow throughout the entire length - do not use holes of different length than the pipe.
   
3. The ID (inside diameter) of all pipe must not exceed the OD (outside diameter) - otherwise the hole will be on the outside.
   
4. All pipe is to be supplied with nothing in the hole, so that water, steam or other stuff can be put inside at a later date.
   
5. All pipe should be supplied without rust; this can be more readily applied at the job site.
   
6. Note: Some vendors are now able to supply pre-rusted pipes. If available in your area, this product is a recommended thing, as it will save a great deal of time at the job site.
   
7. All pipe over 500 ft in length should have the words "LONG PIPE" clearly painted on each side and end, so the contractor will know it's a long pipe.
   
8. Pipe over 2 miles in length must also have the words "LONG PIPE" painted in the middle so the contractor will not have to walk the entire length of the pipe to determine whether or not it is a long pipe or a short pipe.
   
9. All pipe over 6 ft in diameter must have the words "LARGE PIPE" painted on it, so the contractor will not mistake it for a small pipe.
   
10. Flanges must be used on all pipe. Flanges must have holes for bolts, quite separate from the big hole in the middle.
    
11. When ordering 90 deg. or 30 deg. elbows, be sure to specify left-hand or right-hand, otherwise you will end up going the wrong way.
    
12. Be sure to specify to your vendor whether you want level, uphill or downhill pipe. if you use downhill pipes for going uphill, the water will flow the wrong way.
    
13. All couplings should have either right-hand or left-hand threads, but do not mix the threads, otherwise, as the coupling is being screwed on one pipe, it is being unscrewed from the other.
    
14. All pipes shorter than 1/8 in are very uneconomical in use, requiring many joints. They are generally known as washers.
    
15. Joints in pipes for piping water must be water-tight. Those in pipes for compressed air, however, need only be air-tight.
    
16. Lengths of pipes may be welded or soldered together. This method is not recommended for concrete or earthenware pipes.
    
17. Other commodities are often confused with pipes. These include: Conduit, Tube, Tunnel and Drain. Use only genuine pipes.
    

 

Does that help?

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

Does that help?

 

Richard

 

It's cheered me up no end...

 

PC

[bag 'o' bones]

I think it is about time that imperial pipe and fittings are phased out.

 

There are folk on here who are saying that only imperial pipe meets the required standard.

 

What!!!!!

 

As a nation we either change properly over to metric or we don't i'm sick of having to deal with the expense of two systems.

 

As for talk about the correct pipe, tube whatever you want to call it - if this is indeed 'correct' is slightly thicker as in 1 tenth of a millimeter. All I can say is whoever originally dreamt that one up needs to wake up and smell the roses!

 

Tell you waht lets go back to the beginining and get rid of 'standards' altogether because in reality there are none.

 

Examples:

 

You can fit a internally flued appliance in a boat as long as it is a cooker.

 

If it is an instantaneous outside flued water heater then it depends on who you talk to and how old your boat is. If your boat is 'new' then it is frowned upon as you might try to sell it to someone within a twelve month period. Once it is twelve months old it is deemed 'old' then it slightly less frowned upon because the BSS says so. It also depends on which version of the BSS you read. On the contrary anyone who is 'educated' in things gas related, then they say definatley not!

Oh I better add at this point you don't necessarily have to be educated to fit gas on a boat you just have to be a 'competant person' whatever that means!!!

 

If you want to fit an internally flued gas heater then that is a definate no-no 'you might suck all the oxygen out of the air and kill every one on board' does a gas cooker not do the same thing given half a chance!

 

Oh an another thing it seems that gas lights are perfectly ok to fit as the 'clever' ones have not found reason not to fit them .....yet.

 

Again you don't legally have to fit a carbon monoxide detetector, or a gas detector nor even a fire alarm. even though you have to fit fire extinguishers that put you at risk when you fight the fire and loose miserably anyway!

 

Oh yeah it even ok to fit rubber gas pipe on a boat as long as its made in China because the british standards say so according to some.

 

So you see we don't have 'standards'. Well, none that make any sense anyway!

 

Edited April 6, 2010 by bag 'o' bones

[Guest]

I think it is about time that imperial pipe and fittings are phased out.

 

There are folk on here who are saying that only imperial pipe meets the required standard.

 

What!!!!!

 

As a nation we either change properly over to metric or we don't i'm sick of having to deal with the expense of two systems.

 

As for talk about the correct pipe, tube whatever you want to call it - if this is indeed 'correct' is slightly thicker as in 1 tenth of a millimeter. All I can say is whoever originally dreamt that one up needs to wake up and smell the roses!

 

Tell you waht lets go back to the beginining and get rid of 'standards' altogether because in reality there are none.

 

Examples:

 

You can fit a internally flued appliance in a boat as long as it is a cooker.

 

If it is an instantaneous outside flued water heater then it depends on who you talk to and how old your boat is. If your boat is 'new' then it is frowned upon as you might try to sell it to someone within a twelve month period. Once it is twelve months old it is deemed 'old' then it slightly less frowned upon because the BSS says so. It also depends on which version of the BSS you read. On the contrary anyone who is 'educated' in things gas related, then they say definatley not!

Oh I better add at this point you don't necessarily have to be educated to fit gas on a boat you just have to be a 'competant person' whatever that means!!!

 

If you want to fit an internally flued gas heater then that is a definate no-no 'you might suck all the oxygen out of the air and kill every one on board' does a gas cooker not do the same thing given half a chance!

 

Oh an another thing it seems that gas lights are perfectly ok to fit as the 'clever' ones have not found reason not to fit them .....yet.

 

Again you don't legally have to fit a carbon monoxide detetector, or a gas detector nor even a fire alarm. even though you have to fit fire extinguishers that put you at risk when you fight the fire and loose miserably anyway!

 

Oh yeah it even ok to fit rubber gas pipe on a boat as long as its made in China because the british standards say so according to some.

 

So you see we don't have 'standards'. Well, none that make any sense anyway!

 

You have highlighted most of the points that I don't accept, and possibly a lot of other people as well. I firmly believe that these and many other standards arise as the result of "Jobs for the boys," those people who have jobs and aren't quite sure what they are supposed to be doing.

[alan_fincher]

As for talk about the correct pipe, tube whatever you want to call it - if this is indeed 'correct' is slightly thicker as in 1 tenth of a millimeter. All I can say is whoever originally dreamt that one up needs to wake up and smell the roses!

 

I guess in many walks of life we can find regulations that for whatever reason we don't consider sensible.

 

However, in a case like this you have (at least) 2 choices....

 

1) Do a job in a way that complies with the current regulations and standards, and which should therefore pass an official test with no problems.

 

2) Do it in a way that whilst probably still intrinsically safe does not actually meet the current regulations and standards, and which someone may (or may not) pick up on later on.

 

If someone has actually chosen "option 2", I would personally be disappointed if I bought the boat, and found that to be the case.

 

People regularly consult these forums for advice on how to do things in a way that they are fully compliant with all appropriate regulations.

 

It therefore seems reasonable when you see an approach being championed that appears to be non compliant that you point it out - at least people can then choose to non comply if they wish to, rather than simply because of misinformation given.

 

Whether it matters a jot whether the pipe has that extra 0.1mm wall thickness or not is another debate, as far as I'm concerned. Of course it may well not, and the metric pipe may be entirely fit for the use, but that in it's own right doesn't make it comply.

[the grinch]

the problems arise through too many organisation having an input

The LPG association flew in the face of British standards who in turn refused to work with them

then Corgi came along and tried its hardest to get a uniformity but was hindered by the CITB and Bpec who in turn interpreted the standards in different ways

this ultimately has left us with a minefield of slight variation

 

each is guilty of complacency in my opinion and the anomalies should be eliminated. ideally NG and LPG should be tested in the same fashion this could so easily be done by slight adjustments to the pressures we test at.

a NG let by test is done at 10mbar, but LPG is 5mbar if both were 10 then everyone would be able to test either. similarly a test for tightness could be done at 20mbar (ng pressure)