Boat Builders

[PaddingtonBear]

I saw that small Northwich in the 'raw' when they were nearly finished building - it is fantastic, almost impossible to conceive that two humans had made it. I told Steve at the time btw. I do know a little of what I speak. I used to be a coded welder and registered contractor of English Heritage, restoring/renewing metalwork and that skill is way beyond me(then every thing is:)

[Albion]

But it's debatable as to which of those is actually a higher-quality car (to be a good test we should of course make the comparison with a Veyron that is as old as your Rover and has covered as many miles).

 

Actually 18 years ago I would definitely have pushed for SoTBB's inclusion in the "Elite" list. I'm not sure that I still would though - not because they don't still build top-quality boats, because I know that they they do, but I think they've slipped out of the "Elite" class (perhaps influenced by one of their current workers who looked at Keeping Up last summer and said "it's a shame we don't build them like that any more".

 

I would agree with this entirely. In the early days of our wishing and longing for a boat, SoTBB was one of the acknowledged premier builders that most owners aspired to, as was Colecraft at that time. I get the impression though that they have slipped somewhat from that position these days while still producing a better than average product.

 

As far as grumpiness is concerned I have never found Graham Edgson anything like that. He is quietish to start with until he gets to know you but is a real easy guy to get on with once he respects you as a customer. Don't forget that many of these top name guys have had a long pedigree in the trade and have a respect for the tradition and lines of a good boat. They tend to be smaller operations that don't bang out boats en-masse in an industrial unit somewhere. They must get so many time wasters who, frankly, just can't afford one of their products but, nevertheless, insist on going through all the motions before admitting that they aren't in the same league financially. We had just one such potential buyer for Albion when we sold her. The couple had been on and on over a long period of time at Graham wanting one of his boats which they couldn't afford. They then were told of ours going second-hand, came and saw, kept us hanging on for ages and finally, when pushed to make a decision, admitted that they couldn't afford even a second-hand Edgson. Real time-waster tyre kickers IMO but the builders have no way of knowing this until the days and weeks have passed without a sniff of an order. In the meantime they, as one of the workers, have lost days of production.

Graham most certainly ISN'T a builder of poncey, fiddly nbs. He builds straight lined, good BCN heritage type of boats and, if anything, persuades you to keep it simpler without all the scrolled cants etc.

Roger

[Batavia]

Yes. but it is a common mistake. I have known Roger for more than ten years and it was only last year that I discovered it was Farrington, not Farringdon.

You obviously haven't written out enough cheques payable to him!

 

Chris G

[David Schweizer]

You obviously haven't written out enough cheques payable to him!

 

Chris G

Really? Cheques are made payable to Ivy Bridge Marine

[Speedwheel]

Really? Cheques are made payable to Ivy Bridge Marine

 

Not always (and I don't mean in an sort of dodgy way!)

[David Schweizer]

But paying by cash would not involve writing his name down either, where is this going?

[carlt]

I suspect they incorporate the details requested by the customer.

 

If you want an example of quality with minimum fripery how about this Northwich outline boat by Steve Priest.

http://www.brinklowboatservices.com/rose/

...and that is going to be a hire boat, presumably.

[Speedwheel]

...and that is going to be a hire boat, presumably.

 

Yup. The last one they built for Rose was Cascade - link below.

 

http://www.rose-narrowboats.co.uk/narrowboat.htm

 

 

But paying by cash would not involve writing his name down either, where is this going?

 

Nowhere

[PaddingtonBear]

You are right about grumpyness - serious would be a better word and quite right too. Having done metal bashing it is also not conducive to idle chat - too hot, smelly, noisy and dirty, I enjoyed every minute but absolutely no money in it.

Edited March 19, 2010 by PaddingtonBear

[alan_fincher]

I suspect they incorporate the details requested by the customer.

 

If you want an example of quality with minimum fripery how about this Northwich outline boat by Steve Priest.

http://www.brinklowboatservices.com/rose/

Now that's a no nonsense boat that still looks like a real boat!

 

Yes, please, that will do me very nicely.

 

In a strange way it's very reminiscent of when a local hire company operated two 40 foot cut down Middle Northwich icebreaker tugs as hire boats in the 1960s and 1970s.

 

It would be nice to think this one handled just as well as they did.

 

I'm not sure everybody will accept this one as "qualifying" quality boat though - it has windows for God's sake!

[Guest]

The Northwich hire boat isn't that great. For a start the counter's all wrong. The bow just looks like a standard clonecraft (love that term by the way).

 

With regards to the elite list, there is one builder on there who goes to great pains to add fake rivets to his washer joshers, which are of a dis-similar material to the hull, a consequence of this is galvanic corrosion in the areas adjacent to the fake rivet seams. In addition, they use 5mm plates to form the bow, which on a 12 year old boat I know of, were found to be pitted to 2.5mm. The people buying didn't survey and parted with £82,000 for that. Really really not worth it, and really really not elite at all. Just cos it looks fancy or 'authentic' doesn't make it elite.

 

Just my opinions of course.

[David Schweizer]

The Northwich hire boat isn't that great. For a start the counter's all wrong. The bow just looks like a standard clonecraft (love that term by the way).......snip

 

Just my opinions of course.

 

I agree, I was going to post a similar observation but decided that I did not wish to malign Steve Priest, who is an excellent boatbuilder. However here goes:- I actually think the bow is a reasonable copy of a small Northwich, but from the photos, the back end is completely wrong. The cabin side tumblehome is too steep, the cabin roof upsweep is too shallow, the counter is too deep, and how can anyone claim that it is a Northwich copy with those handrails?

 

I spent seven years of my life helping to work a small Northwich which still had it's original cabin, I can tell a good copy straight away, and there are very few about. At best this example, which will clearly have been built to a price, can be described as informed by the desiogn of a small Northwich, but no more than that.

Edited March 19, 2010 by David Schweizer

[Nickhlx]

I agree, I was going to post a similar observation but decided that I did not wish to malign Steve Priest, who is an excellent boatbuilder. However here goes:- I actually think the bow is a reasonable copy of a small Northwich, but from the photos, the back end is completely wrong. The cabin side tumblehome is too steep, the cabin roof upsweep is too shallow, the counter is too deep, and how can anyone claim that it is a Northwich copy with those handrails?

 

I spent seven years of my life helping to work a small Northwich which still had it's original cabin, I can tell a good copy straight away, and there are very few about. At best this example, which will clearly have been built to a price, can be described as informed by the desiogn of a small Northwich, but no more than that.

 

 

It all goes to show it costs HEAPS of money to buy things to impress others - you could have bought something for somewhat less money, and less depreciation, which would give just as much (and probably more) enjoyment (as you would realise its not rusting away literally in front of you). It's a bit like "do I buy Mercedes or BMW" - you know the BMW is a better drive, but you buy the Mercedes because everyone else thinks it's a "better" car... Huh ? But you don't realise it 'till later.

 

Still makes me laugh, but whatever floats yer boat - it keeps people in employment which is the main thing...

 

Nick

[bargemast]

I concur. I think that's a good way of putting it.

 

In theory you could build a shell anywhere but those generally accepted as the elite all build by the water.

 

Kemp/Harris - Dadford's at Stourbbridge

RW Davis -Saul

Wain/Priest -Brinklow

Fuller -Stone

Farringdon -Braunston

Norton Canes -NC

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think all the above have at some time been involved in restoration.

 

Don't you think that MEL DAVIS should be on this list too ? I really think that they boats he has built look just the job, with nicely detailed lines all over.

 

Peter.

[Athy]

Don't you think that MEL DAVIS should be on this list too ? I really think that they boats he has built look just the job, with nicely detailed lines all over.

 

Peter.

Yes I do - but I'm biased as he built 'Trojan' for us in 2005/06. To me she looks graceful and chunky in equal measure. Mel has also done some restoration work, I think: I remember visiting his farm and seeing one of the ex-Stewart & Lloyd tugs receiving attention there.

[alan_fincher]

I spent seven years of my life helping to work a small Northwich which still had it's original cabin, I can tell a good copy straight away, and there are very few about. At best this example, which will clearly have been built to a price, can be described as informed by the desiogn of a small Northwich, but no more than that.

However poorly some bits are done, still looks a lot more Northwich like than many "Josher copies" look Josher like though.

 

(Just my opinion).

 

Don't know about dimensional accuracy, but in terms of "feeling" right, the pointed end really looks pretty good to me.

 

I'll be interested to see what it looks like when complete, with the back end ballasted down, and a suitable paint scheme to the counter.

 

I can't help feeling the "out of water" "red oxide" thing isn't helping it's case, and I can think of at least one (very) relal Northwich, (albeit a "big" one), that has been lovingly restored, but which certainly looked very different whilst only painted in red oxide.

 

Nice to see someone brave enough to commit the "crime" of windows rather than port holes too!

[Speedwheel]

The Northwich hire boat isn't that great. For a start the counter's all wrong. The bow just looks like a standard clonecraft (love that term by the way).

 

With regards to the elite list, there is one builder on there who goes to great pains to add fake rivets to his washer joshers, which are of a dis-similar material to the hull, a consequence of this is galvanic corrosion in the areas adjacent to the fake rivet seams. In addition, they use 5mm plates to form the bow, which on a 12 year old boat I know of, were found to be pitted to 2.5mm. The people buying didn't survey and parted with £82,000 for that. Really really not worth it, and really really not elite at all. Just cos it looks fancy or 'authentic' doesn't make it elite.

 

Just my opinions of course.

 

It is a northwich outline based boat not a replica. Like the northwich traders, it claims to heve been 'inspired by'.

 

EDIT to add, RWDavis boats actually claim to have been built to the Yarwoods drawings but having seen the real thing moored next to one, I think possibly a certain amount of artistic licence has been used.

 

If it was my money and I was having new boat, it would be between two of the builders mentioned - and I'm 95% sure who would win my business.

Won't be an issue though as I have no intention of ever having a new boat.

 

No bloody fake rivets though under any circumstances!

 

 

However poorly some bits are done, still looks a lot more Northwich like than many "Josher copies" look Josher like though.

 

Very true!

 

Josher - the most abused word on the canal?

Edited March 20, 2010 by Speedwheel

[koukouvagia]

In theory you could build a shell anywhere but those generally accepted as the elite all build by the water.

 

Kemp/Harris - Dadford's at Stourbbridge

RW Davis -Saul

Wain/Priest -Brinklow

Fuller -Stone

Farringdon -Braunston

Norton Canes -NC

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think all the above have at some time been involved in restoration.

 

I'd add Graeme Pearce at Stockton to this list.

Edited March 20, 2010 by koukouvagia

[Paul H]

I agree, I was going to post a similar observation but decided that I did not wish to malign Steve Priest, who is an excellent boatbuilder. However here goes:- I actually think the bow is a reasonable copy of a small Northwich, but from the photos, the back end is completely wrong. The cabin side tumblehome is too steep, the cabin roof upsweep is too shallow, the counter is too deep, and how can anyone claim that it is a Northwich copy with those handrails?

 

I spent seven years of my life helping to work a small Northwich which still had it's original cabin, I can tell a good copy straight away, and there are very few about. At best this example, which will clearly have been built to a price, can be described as informed by the desiogn of a small Northwich, but no more than that.

In defence of the boys at Brinklow this is in no way the kind of replica Northwich boat they normally build for a private customer. However it is "Northwich style" within the cost constraints and the particular requirements of the customer - Rose Narrowboats. Rose should be commended in spending that little bit more to produce such a classically styled hire boat.

 

Steve Priest has his own website which explains the difference.

 

The counter, when painted, will be very similar to Sickle a middle northwich motor boat see here and presumably this deepness of counter was chosen to limit the draught of the hire boat whilst preserving a depth of hull. I agree it is nothing like the small Northwich Pisces but it wasn't supposed to be and nor will it have Pisces' 3ft draught!

 

Steve and Simon are more than capable of producing replica boats painstakingly constructed to be indistinguishable from the real thing as other example on the Brinklow and Steve Priest websites show.

 

Paul

[NB Alnwick]

I concur. I think that's a good way of putting it.

 

In theory you could build a shell anywhere but those generally accepted as the elite all build by the water.

 

Kemp/Harris - Dadford's at Stourbbridge

RW Davis -Saul

Wain/Priest -Brinklow

Fuller -Stone

Farringdon -Braunston

Norton Canes -NC

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think all the above have at some time been involved in restoration.

 

For me the above list is also qualified by the fact that they are all enthusiasts, know what a 'proper boat' should look like and are happiest when building something that looks right. I have just been looking at Steve Priest's website which I found easy to navigate and sufficiently pleasing to temp me if I were in the market for a new boat or a major refit.

 

I have no wish to criticise the many builders who are not on Andy's list but last year at Crick we had several visitors who said that Alnwick (which was particularly scruffy) was better, by far, than the new offerings being exhibited at the show. It is all a matter of personal taste and some might say if you really want something that resembles the design of a historic working boat, why not buy a historic working boat. Personally, if I had such a beast I would want to keep it in original condition - so a new solidly built boat that is inspired by a working boat design is probably the best compromise for use as a cruising live-aboard and the all the builders on Andy's list have proved that they are capable of building just such a vessel.

[crfc123]

pukka

[Steve Priest]

The Northwich hire boat isn't that great. For a start the counter's all wrong. The bow just looks like a standard clonecraft (love that term by the way).

 

With regards to the elite list, there is one builder on there who goes to great pains to add fake rivets to his washer joshers, which are of a dis-similar material to the hull, a consequence of this is galvanic corrosion in the areas adjacent to the fake rivet seams. In addition, they use 5mm plates to form the bow, which on a 12 year old boat I know of, were found to be pitted to 2.5mm. The people buying didn't survey and parted with £82,000 for that. Really really not worth it, and really really not elite at all. Just cos it looks fancy or 'authentic' doesn't make it elite.

 

Just my opinions of course.

 

I had intended to post a response earlier this morning, but our internet connection has been unreliable. Now I can respond, the main point that I was going to make has already been made, thank you Paul.

 

I tend not to post on discussions regarding boatbuilders, I feel that it would be unprofessional to do so. As far as I am concerned, the decision is up to the individual, you pay your money and you take your choice. If your choice is to come to us for a boat, then that's great, if you don't want what we do and go elsewhere, then that's fine as well. Sometimes there seems a sort of arrogance implied by being regarded as elite, but I don't see that in other people named on the list, most of whom I know well. Certainly most, if not all the builders that most people would consider elite are enthusiasts as well and have at some stage been boating for a living, as Simon, Rex and Myself have.

 

We believe that the shape of the Northwich boats that we build is about as accurate as we can reasonably get, we have had plenty of opportunities to measure and pattern the shape of the real thing with the boats that we restore, such as Antlia and Scorpio. We also build Joshers and Cowburn and Cowpar boats, and have build a copy of a Yarwoods Admiral motor from Yarwoods drawings, one of the few types of boat, I believe, where drawings that are good enough to build from exist Work lined up for this coming year include a steam boat based on the GJC steam tugs, and a little Woolwich copy.

 

However, rivet washers and plate detailing are not obligatory, but optional. If people want a good shaped boat without such detailing then that's ok with us, and that's where the Rose hireboat comes in. The fore end was built from the same patterns that we would use for a more detailed copy, but the stern end is modified to make it more suitable for a hire boat. The draught is a lot less, the swim is a simple vertical sided swim rather than a flared one, the counter bottom flat, rather than concave. Decreasing the draught increases the counter depth, but to minimise this the lift is also reduced, and the guard line altered. This is NOT a detailed copy of a little Northwich, it is a cruiser sterned hire boat, original Northwich tumblehome is therefore irrelevant, David, and conventional style handrails more suited to this use than Northwich style ones. Original Northwich handrails were on 3/4'' stanchions, it is quite easy to trap fingers underneath which has led to injuries when people have tripped or fallen from the gunwhale, hardly suitable for a hire boat.

 

Feedback from Rose suggests that they are very happy with Cascade, and Anthony says that it handles better than anything else in the fleet, as in common with most of the 'elite' builders we tend to fit a decent sized rudder rather than the postage stamp that some builders fit. We have recently finished the second boat for Rose, which I think is due to enter the fleet for next season.

 

I don't know of any elite builder that builds Josher fore ends in 5mm plate, we certainly don't, nor would we.

 

Oh, and by the way, Albion beat Preston North End 3-2 this afternoon ( sorry Sparky). Eight points clear of Forest with eight games to go, premiership football next season - c'mon you baggies!

[David Schweizer]

I accept everything that Steve says. My comments were not intended as a negative criticism of Steve or Brinklow Boats, but merely as an observation. I hope that people reading them will accept them for that, and no more.

Edited March 20, 2010 by David Schweizer

[Athy]

[.

 

Oh, and by the way, Albion beat Preston North End 3-2 this afternoon ( sorry Sparky). Eight points clear of Forest with eight games to go, premiership football next season - c'mon you baggies!

 

Surely some mistake here? Albion are a team from Sussex. Yesterday they beat Oldham Athletic 2-0 away. COME ON YOU SEAGULLS!!!

[Steve Priest]

[.

 

 

Surely some mistake here? Albion are a team from Sussex. Yesterday they beat Oldham Athletic 2-0 away. COME ON YOU SEAGULLS!!!

 

Surely no mistake, I meant THE Albion, you lot don't boing