Petter PD2 engines

[furnessvale]

The Elk does indeed have a PD2

 

Tim

 

Which came out of Banstead.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Chris-B]

Aldgate did indeed still have the PD2 fited when Paul and Lyn Ayres sold it

I believe that Nick still has it fitted BUT it has recently been worked on buy the Redshaw's

 

C

[Chertsey]

I had the idea that Greenock's PD2 was in the process of being replaced with a National, but I could be remembering that wrong.

[pete harrison]

Which came out of Banstead.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

I know that ELK has a Petter PD2 but do you you know when it was fitted as something here does not add up ! (regarding BANSTEAD's engine)

[furnessvale]

I know that ELK has a Petter PD2 but do you you know when it was fitted as something here does not add up ! (regarding BANSTEAD's engine)

 

I believe the owner bought it from Roger Lorenz about 1996 and fitted it in ELK about that time but don't hold me to a year or two.

 

I think the owner of ELK may be a member of this forum so he may be along in a while to clear things up.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited November 17, 2009 by furnessvale

[Steve Priest]

I started to write a reply yesterday but have had no internet because of the weather ( I think)

 

Aquila still has a National, but not the one it came with (that's still in the workshop, in bits). The one now in the boat was a 'good runner' that I bought and fitted as a quick fix, proved to be anything but, but that's another story.

 

Greenock is definitely keeping its Petter, it's in my workshop having a rebuild ready to go back in.

 

Bilster still has a Petter, I remember it siezing back in '76, I believe that the pipe to the sump pump sheared where it comes out of the sump, and the oil drained out into the bilge. The same thing happened to me when I used to steer Yeoford for the B'ham & Midland. When I had Greenock I fitted a tap into the sump and piped the pump in from there. If there are any other Petter owners reading this I think it is a worthwhile addition

[Derek R.]

(snip)

When I had Greenock I fitted a tap into the sump and piped the pump in from there. If there are any other Petter owners reading this I think it is a worthwhile addition

 

I've never known why Tycho's PD3 has no sump pump. Perhaps someone had a problem in the past and hoi'd it away, which leaves draining the sump a real 'Ho-Ho-Ho!'.

Clearly it needs a sump pump - without, the temptation to leave old oil too long in is too great. I'm thinking an entry into one of the bolt on plates might be an idea, but would appreciate any better ideas.

 

Derek

Edited November 18, 2009 by Derek R.

[PaddingtonBear]

Is a 'Pela' type vacuum pump no good? I use one on my National but if it is considered no good I will have to take further advice (bugger)

[Derek R.]

Is a 'Pela' type vacuum pump no good? I use one on my National but if it is considered no good I will have to take further advice (bugger)

 

It looks fine, except I need to pump five gallons. Of course, I could do that in relays, and in effect that is a similar system that I use with rubber vane pump attached to an electric drill. The tricky bit is actually getting the skinny tube down through a cranked filler neck. Ideally, it needs to be permanently in-situ and not reliant on more aparatus to be stored. Seems a good option though. Thanks for the tip.

 

Derek

[PaddingtonBear]

The Pela type pump that I have got is made by Draper and holds about gallon and a half and cost about £35.00 inc and I bought it from Lucas when I bought my start battery. It 'goes' down the dipstick hole btw.

[SteveE]

Sorry to be a bit slow contributing to this thread, Madcat, but we have the converted iron boat referred to by Pete Harrison, Glenfield. The PD2 fitted in the '70s is still in it and has propelled us round the system over the last 2 years without a hitch. It's a bit smoky on start up and if revved hard after idling in a lock but otherwise has a clean exhaust and adequate 'grunt' for our needs. It is still mated to a 3:1 Parsons gearbox. Sump drainage is via a pipe fitted to the drain plug orifice.

I have some pics of it but Photobucket won't work just now.

Regards

SteveE

 

I would like to hear more because in the dim and distant past Halsall had one of these I believe also Im sure Warrior Woman would be very interested too.

What I have heard is that they were good at busting crankshafts and also overheating but I have no experience to back this up.Several people I know have PD2,s and seem to be very happy with them and they do sound good. Perhaps George will relate his experiences with Alton, I think that is Petter powered.

I think spares are becoming harder to find but again I have not needed to find any.

[antarmike]

When I had a PD2 in Bilster, the main problems were with oil leaks. In particular the O ring seals in the push rod tubes, were particularly good at leaking. The main problem with the PD2 was it was so hard to work on. The ducting for the air cooling was laced with holes, through which the Lubricating oil pipes, fuel pipes etc went in and out. Doing any work on the engine usuallymeant breaking pipes both in the fuel, and the lubrication lines. Add to this the raised handstart, that and the arrangemnent at the front end of the cranck that meant you had an hour or more disassembly to change the fan belts. When I changed fan belts I always fitted two sets, carefully tying one out of the way, before refitting all the bearings, castings etc that had to be removed to get to them. This means next time changeing belts is a doddle.

 

I found the oil pump to drain the sump at overhaul was ineffective, and it was easier to dump oil into the bilge, then pump out from there.

 

The Parsons gearbox itself was fairly could but keeping the reverse gear brakeband adjusted took work, and finding neutral was an art. I left a hole in the cabin floor, above the rubber coupling, which I painted in yellow wnd black stripes.

 

You found neutral by looking at the cabin floor!

 

Hand starting was possible, just, if you used the automatic decompressor and set it three grooves from release, but because of the cack-handed direction of rotation, you were stood on the gearbox, with the battery sheft behind you and digging in your shoulder.

 

My kid brother got it wrong one day on Belfast, and it backfired, spinning the crank handle backwards, hitting him where it hurts men, and lifting him off his feet and throwing him against the cabin side.

 

I had an interchangable straight through pipe, and a silencer pipe. I used the straight pipe non very often, but when I did it was loud. (I now wear haering aids, any connection?)

Mike

 

I posted a bit out the engine siezure in the Great Dorset Steam Fair thread, in the virtual pub.

Edited December 5, 2009 by antarmike

[Derek R.]

Hi Mike, welcome and thanks for the addition.

 

The dodgy neutral could well have been due to wear on the mainshaft in the Parsons. As the plates engage and drive the shaft, grooves are created on the mainshaft splines, which if get bad enough, can catch the inner tangs of the plates and hold them up keeping them tight together and preventing drive from disengaging. Not something you want heading into a Thames lock full of Tupperware. A complete strip down and engineering job is required to fix that one. But they are tough gearboxes, so expensive work should be far apart and seldom for anyone who has one - if they are working fine, leave alone! Adjustments to the reverse band and forward drive collar are simple enough as is probably known, though some detailed knowledge of adjusting is required so as not to get it wrong.

 

There's a guy down in Faversham - Westpoint Marine Services who knows them well, but our Mr Thompson at Uxbridge should be able to sort out any problems. Mark at Westpoint reckoned they were designed to take 200hp. I cannot vouch for that.

 

I can concur that hand starting the PD2 was not for the faint hearted (two of us managed it together once, just to see if we could) - and a PD3 - forget it! I did have a flat battery once that wouldn't get the three over compression, but engaged a passing lady to press the starter when I gave the nod whilst getting some speed up on the handle - we made it that time! The petter will fire and run just as long as you can get it over the squeeze, it'll bang and blow all by itself after that.

 

Derek

[furnessvale]

I found the oil pump to drain the sump at overhaul was ineffective, and it was easier to dump oil into the bilge, then pump out from there.

 

Hand starting was possible, just, if you used the automatic decompressor and set it three grooves from release, but because of the cack-handed direction of rotation, you were stood on the gearbox, with the battery sheft behind you and digging in your shoulder.

 

The drain pump on Alton always dried out between uses so I had to prime it with an eggcup full of new oil to get it going. Even so, I reckoned a double whisky amount at each stroke is a slow way to empty the sump.

 

The starter motor on Alton failed at one time such that the windings broke down when hot. This coincided with a period of air locks in the diesel feed. I got quite adept at starting a HOT engine on my own but I always enlisted help with the engine when cold.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[antarmike]

Hi Mike, welcome and thanks for the addition.

 

The dodgy neutral could well have been due to wear on the mainshaft in the Parsons. As the plates engage and drive the shaft, grooves are created on the mainshaft splines, which if get bad enough, can catch the inner tangs of the plates and hold them up keeping them tight together and preventing drive from disengaging. Not something you want heading into a Thames lock full of Tupperware. A complete strip down and engineering job is required to fix that one. But they are tough gearboxes, so expensive work should be far apart and seldom for anyone who has one - if they are working fine, leave alone! Adjustments to the reverse band and forward drive collar are simple enough as is probably known, though some detailed knowledge of adjusting is required so as not to get it wrong.

 

There's a guy down in Faversham - Westpoint Marine Services who knows them well, but our Mr Thompson at Uxbridge should be able to sort out any problems. Mark at Westpoint reckoned they were designed to take 200hp. I cannot vouch for that.

 

I can concur that hand starting the PD2 was not for the faint hearted (two of us managed it together once, just to see if we could) - and a PD3 - forget it! I did have a flat battery once that wouldn't get the three over compression, but engaged a passing lady to press the starter when I gave the nod whilst getting some speed up on the handle - we made it that time! The petter will fire and run just as long as you can get it over the squeeze, it'll bang and blow all by itself after that.

 

Derek

 

It could be that I was having trouble with reverse brakeband, because running laden some of the time, I like so many of the BWB, ex boaters I worked with would slam from forward to reverse, with the engine at full revs. (emergency stop!). It was how I was brought up by them to clear a fouled propellor, and it usually worked. When the counter is in to the middle guard I couldn't reach the prop by hand from the bank.

Edited December 5, 2009 by antarmike

[madcat]

This is all very interesting and revealing and I hope more will emerge.I should think that the Lister is the third type of engine to be fitted in Halsall and I think by default I have become a Lister person but still find everybody elses engines interesting.

The Parsons box sounds a sturdy article

[Timleech]

This is all very interesting and revealing and I hope more will emerge.I should think that the Lister is the third type of engine to be fitted in Halsall and I think by default I have become a Lister person but still find everybody elses engines interesting.

The Parsons box sounds a sturdy article

 

The Parsons 'F' type boxes were very good, they did (do) suffer as DerekR has said from the clutch plates wearing notches in the driving spline, which makes getting a true neutral difficult on a well-used box. I imagine this was particularly a problem on the 2-cylinder Petters and Armstrongs because of the extra strain of cyclic speed variations. I think among others they were commonly fitted to Ford 4D engines and probably had much less of that problem there.

They are generously sized for the job, as I understand it early versions of the Armstrong AS2 were fitted with the smaller 'D' type Parsons box which was perfectly adequate for the power but didn't stand up to the regular and sometimes brutal ahead/astern strains of a working canal boat.

I remember hand-starting a PD2 a couple of times, unaided, in my youth but wouldn't fancy trying it now!

 

Tim

[antarmike]

The Parsons 'F' type boxes were very good, they did (do) suffer as DerekR has said from the clutch plates wearing notches in the driving spline, which makes getting a true neutral difficult on a well-used box. I imagine this was particularly a problem on the 2-cylinder Petters and Armstrongs because of the extra strain of cyclic speed variations. I think among others they were commonly fitted to Ford 4D engines and probably had much less of that problem there.

They are generously sized for the job, as I understand it early versions of the Armstrong AS2 were fitted with the smaller 'D' type Parsons box which was perfectly adequate for the power but didn't stand up to the regular and sometimes brutal ahead/astern strains of a working canal boat.

I remember hand-starting a PD2 a couple of times, unaided, in my youth but wouldn't fancy trying it now!

 

Tim

 

The secret of hand starting a PD2 in mid winter is to take the air filter apart, soak a rag in diesel, put it in the lower filter housing and light it, then crank the engine over.

Edited December 5, 2009 by antarmike