Morco water heater

[tomandsophie]

Been thinking about getting one of these Morco D61B gas water heaters. I have heard that it is now ok by the BSS to fit non room-sealed equipment provided that it is done by a competent person. However, there are two things I'm not sure of:

1. Can they be fitted in bathrooms? I have a hunch that this is the one place in which the BSS insists on the device being room sealed.

2. Can the Morco water heaters be fitted with a side-exit flue? I am thinking of fitting it under the sink and having the flue come out of the side rather than putting in a flue and chimney on the roof. It would be great if we could fit it under the kitchen sink and have the flue exit out of the side just like the flue from our gas fridge.

 

Also, is the Morco D61B boiler a good one to go for? Recommendations?

[tomandsophie]

One more thing I've just thought of: I want to install the water heater in such a way that the 'cold feed' to it would come from the calorifier. That way we can still use the free hot water that we get when we're cruising and when we have the stove running (with backboiler = free hot water for 6 months of the year), but we can light the Morco when the water in the calorifier is cold. Is this feasible? Will water still run through the boiler even when it is not lit?

[MoominPapa]

Been thinking about getting one of these Morco D61B gas water heaters. I have heard that it is now ok by the BSS to fit non room-sealed equipment provided that it is done by a competent person. However, there are two things I'm not sure of:

1. Can they be fitted in bathrooms? I have a hunch that this is the one place in which the BSS insists on the device being room sealed.

2. Can the Morco water heaters be fitted with a side-exit flue? I am thinking of fitting it under the sink and having the flue come out of the side rather than putting in a flue and chimney on the roof. It would be great if we could fit it under the kitchen sink and have the flue exit out of the side just like the flue from our gas fridge.

 

Also, is the Morco D61B boiler a good one to go for? Recommendations?

 

We have one installed in the bathroom. I think it's frowned upon, but not actually banned. The concensus here before is that a competent person will NOT fit non-room sealed kit, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it yourself.

 

A vertical flu through the roof is the only fluing option, it has to act like a chimney.

 

To integrate with the calorifier, use valves so that you can draw water from one source or the other. Do not pipe the output of the calorifier through the Morco: one day you'll feed the Morco with hot water when the gas is on and the water will boil in the Morco.

 

 

MP.

[alan_fincher]

Nothing in the BSS says you should not fit a Morco in a bathroom.

 

Ours is, and passes fine.

 

However Morco themselves do actually say it should not be in a bathroom. They don't say why, but I can only assume it is to stop you and it being in the same small space when it is run.

 

It must be proerly flued, and as MP says, it must be a vertical flue through the roof.

[Tim Doran]

One more thing I've just thought of: I want to install the water heater in such a way that the 'cold feed' to it would come from the calorifier. That way we can still use the free hot water that we get when we're cruising and when we have the stove running (with backboiler = free hot water for 6 months of the year), but we can light the Morco when the water in the calorifier is cold. Is this feasible? Will water still run through the boiler even when it is not lit?

 

 

Hi Tom

 

I fitted one at the beginning of the year and they are very simple to fit.

 

I have a calorifier, and use two manual valves to switch between the two sources. If you post a diagram of the plumbing for both hot and cold water then I could annotate it to work in the same way as mine.

 

You will need to vent it out of the roof, but making holes in the roof is quite easy and fun.

 

Or if you are near BOA at the moment I could pop in.

 

Tim

[tomandsophie]

Hi Tim, we've just returned to Bradford so it would be good to see you and hear about your boiler-fitting experiences. My my, we're exciting people aren't we?!

Feel free to pop in, or alternatively PM me your phone number and I'll get in touch.

See you soon...

 

Just spoken to my local friendly BSS inspector who said that it is fine by the BSS to put a non-room-sealed boiler in a bathroom, although it is not recommended due to the fact that it may not burn as efficiently in a steamy atmosphere.

[The Commodore]

2. Can the Morco water heaters be fitted with a side-exit flue?..............................

 

Also, is the Morco D61B boiler a good one to go for? Recommendations?

 

The D61B and 51B only come with a straight conventional flue. One of the problem with the Morco is it fitted with a down draft diverter overheat stat that has a tendency to drop the pilot out when fitted with too short a flue, this stat can be bypassed quite easily though, if conditions dictate its safe to do so.

[NBMike]

The D61B and 51B only come with a straight conventional flue. One of the problem with the Morco is it fitted with a down draft diverter overheat stat that has a tendency to drop the pilot out when fitted with too short a flue, this stat can be bypassed quite easily though, if conditions dictate its safe to do so.

Downdraft diverter overheat stats detect the increased flue temperature caused by CO coming down the flue. By-passing is NOT recommended

[The Commodore]

if conditions dictate its safe to do so.

[alan_fincher]

And how would you determine that it is safe to do so, and will always remain so.

 

Sounds very unsatisfactory to ever over-ride something clearly added as a safety measure to me.

 

I think this sounds dangerous advice, or at least without more explanation - someone who can't determine if it is "safe to do so" might end up following it IMO.

 

(And yes, I know the early D51Bs didn't have the sensor, but presumably Morco decided to add it to later production for a good reason ??).

[MoominPapa]

The D61B and 51B only come with a straight conventional flue. One of the problem with the Morco is it fitted with a down draft diverter overheat stat that has a tendency to drop the pilot out when fitted with too short a flue, this stat can be bypassed quite easily though, if conditions dictate its safe to do so.

 

We have a D61B fitted within 6 inches of the ceiling in a bathroom with the standard length flue terminal on the outside of the roof, and no problems with spillage or spurious triggering of the overheat stat. It's therefore possible to make this work without bypassing the stat, which I think is a very dodgy thing to do.

 

 

MP.

[The Commodore]

And how would you determine that it is safe to do so, and will always remain so.

 

Sounds very unsatisfactory to ever over-ride something clearly added as a safety measure to me.

 

I think this sounds dangerous advice, or at least without more explanation - someone who can't determine if it is "safe to do so" might end up following it IMO.

 

(And yes, I know the early D51Bs didn't have the sensor, but presumably Morco decided to add it to later production for a good reason ??).

 

 

Correct, the early D51B didnt have the oxygen depletion device, nor did most gas water heater, they relied on the thermocouple to activate the shut down when there was oxygen depletion. I believe this additional safety feature (which is a EU directive) while a good idea, it can and does cause pilot shut down, especially in cold or short flues, i only mentioned the by-passing of the oxygen depletion device as a way of remedying this problem. An explanation of what would dictate safe conditions would obviously depend on individual and their circumstances, but I PERSONALLY would be happy to by-pass the oxygen depletion device if the appliance was fitted in a well ventilated fixed cupboard with vents fitted at high level and ideally the bottom of the cupboard completely open vented to the exterior.

Back to the OP, if i was looking to install a Gas water heater today, i would look to the future, and for boats thats not opened flued appliances. The likes of the Morco F11E which is the direct replacment for the D61B but is room sealed and comes with a side flue outlet, no worries of ventilation or having to by-pass anything.

 

Best of luck with your hot water.

[tomandsophie]

I have had a few people (including our local BSS inspector) recommend strongly that I don't put a D61B in the bathroom because carbon monoxide gets dense and poisonous in steamy atmospheres.

Maybe we'll get the F11E - the room-sealed version - and have it wired to the inverter. I guess it's not going to take much power for a quick shower. More expensive, but at least we would know it will be safe.

[MoominPapa]

carbon monoxide gets dense and poisonous in steamy atmospheres.

 

How does that work then? The solubility of CO in water is low - two orders of magnitude less than carbon dioxide, so doubt it gets concentrated by dissolving in water vapour droplets.

 

The excess risks in a bathroom over elsewhere that I can think of are that bathrooms are small, and because they're used by wet, naked people, the effect of drafts is worse, so there's a bigger temptation to block the ventilation. Neither of those is a problem if all users are aware of the hazards.

 

Something to think about is that extractor fans and naturally-flued gas appliances don't mix - the fan will reduce the pressure in the room which will reduce the draw up the chimney. Since the heater makes a good extractor by itself, it's no problem to do without a fan, but it's risky to have both.

 

 

MP.

[alan_fincher]

Back to the OP, if i was looking to install a Gas water heater today, i would look to the future, and for boats thats not opened flued appliances. The likes of the Morco F11E which is the direct replacment for the D61B but is room sealed and comes with a side flue outlet, no worries of ventilation or having to by-pass anything.

 

 

Maybe we'll get the F11E - the room-sealed version - and have it wired to the inverter. I guess it's not going to take much power for a quick shower. More expensive, but at least we would know it will be safe.

I'd think (more than!) twice, frankly, about the F11E.

 

Several people have said they really are unsuitable for narrow (or wider!) boat use. How are you going to deal with a sideways flue, and as I understand it they require a permanent 240 volt supply.

 

At least one chandler has reported on here that although they have stocked the F11E, nobody actually buys them - I wonder why!

 

I have little doubt that the reason the BSS office relaxed it's view on open-flued models is because they know that the non open-flued types are not suitable.

 

I have no qualms about one in a bathroom. It makes little sense to shower or bath without adequate ventilation anyway, or you'll probably have serious condensation problems.

 

Have you seen the SIZE of an F11E, BTW ?

[The Commodore]

The F11e is slightly larger than the D61b but it can be fitted higher and as such can actually take up less room, it can also be installed with either horizontal and vertical flue, not a problem!, it also consumes 35w maximum, not a problem for the smallest inverters, in fact, if you read the Morco website you'll note that Morco do actually see it as being an appliance very much suited to "narrowboats".

[alan_fincher]

The F11e is slightly larger than the D61b but it can be fitted higher and as such can actually take up less room, it can also be installed with either horizontal and vertical flue, not a problem!, it also consumes 35w maximum, not a problem for the smallest inverters, in fact, if you read the Morco website you'll note that Morco do actually see it as being an appliance very much suited to "narrowboats".

Sorry,

 

Yes you are correct, it can be fitted with a vertical flue, but apparently it has to be so long that it limits it's use as a normal cruising narrow boat.

 

See this thread...

 

Previous thread about unsatisfactorily installed F11E

 

You will see that someone who has the requisite qualifications and certifications to install the things says.....

 

I emailed Morco and they say that the black part of the vertical flue cannot be shortened from its 530mm length. I've suggested that they re-design it if they want to sell any to boat owners. (And its (The Vertical flue) listed at £117 plus Vat Oh but they include free delivery in that!)

 

I still contend that these have proved unsuitable for narrow-boat use, as every story I have heard about trying to fit one has been similar to this. Fine if you don't want to go anywhere, but not a lot of use if you do.

 

I asked before "has anybody satisfactorily installed one", and nobody said "yes". Have you successfully installed one ? If so some pictures might show others how they can ?

[Big COL]

The D61B and 51B only come with a straight conventional flue. One of the problem with the Morco is it fitted with a down draft diverter overheat stat that has a tendency to drop the pilot out when fitted with too short a flue, this stat can be bypassed quite easily though, if conditions dictate its safe to do so.

 

Which is probably why Morco state that the D61b, D61e are not suitable for use in tourers or any other mobile vehicles.

[The Commodore]

No, as yet i havn't installed one, i have seen them installed in some mobile homes. A 20" (530mm) flue doesnt seem excesive to me, saves the oxygen depletion lock out problem of shorter D61b flues. I do except your argument that it may not be suitable for some narrowboats, but i still also contend that open flued appiances have to be a thing of the past.

[alan_fincher]

No, as yet i havn't installed one, i have seen them installed in some mobile homes. A 20" (530mm) flue doesnt seem excesive to me, saves the oxygen depletion lock out problem of shorter D61b flues. I do except your argument that it may not be suitable for some narrowboats, but i still also contend that open flued appiances have to be a thing of the past.

530mm is closer to 21" in round numbers.

 

As I understand it that would be the projection above the boat roof, and I don't think they are made with a view to removing them when boating.

 

It may not be excessive in tems of an LPG appliance installation, but would rule out boating on an awful lot of canals and rivers due to air-draught.

 

I believe the reason the BSS have relaxed their attitude on open flued devices are probably two-fold....

 

1) There are no suitable balanced flue instantaneous heaters suitable for a narrow boat, (which is actually going to go boating, rather than stay tied up in a marina).

2) Properly installed, whatever the hysteria about them, the dangers with the open flued ones are grossly exaggerated. Whilst people have been able to find examples of deaths from poor installations in homes, nobody has actually turned up any I have yet seen relating to narrowboats. At one time every hire boat on the system had one, in more or less continuous use, much of it by novices - I can't recall many dead hirers resulting from that arrangement. I try not to be compacent about such things, but if something is dangerous, it should be easy for someone to present evidence that proves it, surely ?

Edited November 6, 2009 by alan_fincher

[The Commodore]

ah! how i long to return to the simple days of the bi-metalic strip.

 

I'm in Ireland (deeper into the EU trap) so have completely different regs to go by, but a extra 21" air draft on a narrowboat would not be a problem anywhere here.

[MoominPapa]

I'm in Ireland (deeper into the EU trap)

 

Is this an EU thing? I've rented holiday places in France with open flued instantaneous water heaters installed in the bathroom that must have been three or four times the power of a little Morco.

 

MP.