The dream and the reality

[Gary Peacock]

After reading another thread I got to thinking about what became of the boats I sold over the last six or so years and the realisation was quite shocking.

 

I spent lots of time working with customers who were going to retire and cruise continually, only one to my knowledge is still doing so!

 

I spent lots of time working with customers who had dreams of living aboard, I reckon about 90% lasted less then two years!

 

I worked on some very pricey customers own concept boats, many of which ended up being sold on for far less than the cost to produce within a few years.

 

 

It does sort of bring you down to earth with a bit of a sobering bump but is it the boaters or the boatbuilders that are at fault for the dreams so often not working out?

[greywolf]

If the boater is given the boat they asked for and they give up then boating was not for them,the reality not living up to the dream,it seldom does.It can however come very close.Whilst the boat builder can suggest and steer people away from obvious disasters they can not make it the boating experience good, that is up to the boater

[O'Mali]

I worked on some very pricey customers own concept boats, many of which ended up being sold on for far less than the cost to produce within a few years.

What like a 50k Range Rover.

 

I'm also not at all suprised they dont hang around on the scene.

[tomsk]

Deffo not the builders lookout. He (or she) can caution against the sillier specified items, but short of refusing the commision and committing business suicide, emphatically NO! If you you to your tailor and ask for a bespoke gold lame' suit, receive said atrocity as ordered, and then realise you look like a wally down the pub, is it the tailors fault?

[WJM]

Fools and their money are easily parted. Not your fault if they choose to throw it at you!

[Morphyous]

It's a harder lifestyle than some people imagine.

Even if the boat is problem free and they are often not!

I've lost a lot of weight owning an old boat since january and

I've still got a winter to get through but i'm still enjoying the

freedom, changes of scenery and small pleasures that

boating can give.

I wonder if i'll feel the same way, in a couple of years.

[Chagall]

After reading another thread I got to thinking about what became of the boats I sold over the last six or so years and the realisation was quite shocking.

 

I spent lots of time working with customers who were going to retire and cruise continually, only one to my knowledge is still doing so!

 

I spent lots of time working with customers who had dreams of living aboard, I reckon about 90% lasted less then two years!

 

I worked on some very pricey customers own concept boats, many of which ended up being sold on for far less than the cost to produce within a few years.

 

 

It does sort of bring you down to earth with a bit of a sobering bump but is it the boaters or the boatbuilders that are at fault for the dreams so often not working out?

 

But there will always be dreamers and rightly so because although builders may gently steer dreamers to the supposed ideal it will always be the determined dreamers who push the boat out in the hope their dream will become reality and for many it does, the world is full of innovative ideas that did make it off the board, blocks, slipways, wherever and to that end I hope dreamers continue to try. I also hope that when it fails we can help by less back stabbing and 'told you so's, somebody else may benefit from that monster that then gets remodelled or just occasionally that monster begins a new life because suddenly its become an icon of design.

 

I reckon the balance is just that, it always balances, you say you worked with customers, so you helped them achieve what they thought they wanted, you couldn't very well say "don't do it" but at least forums like this can go some way towards providing a service to those that will listen. But nobody wants to listen to sarcasm, and defeatism. I personally have been helped a great deal already by this group, but I will still have what I want and that's the greatest feeling ever!

[Lady Muck]

It's a harder lifestyle than some people imagine.

Even if the boat is problem free and they are often not!

 

 

I think it's this. It is very hard work indeed.

 

My back is absolutely killing me after doing the Rochdale and the Ashton and no it's not poor lock technique - I don't heave on gates when they're not ready and I use a long throw windlass when the paddles are stiff. We had to stern haul our boat into three locks on the Ashton in the freezing pouring rain and hail (yes, in August folks), because there was so much rubbish under the boat, the prop just dug the back of the boat down everytime we tried.

 

I'm 39 and I'm not sure I'll have the strength to do this when I'm 60. Or would want to. Arthritis and rheumatism run in my family and I've also got asthma, so it might not be ideal.

 

I don't think it matters how fancy the boat is and how many mod cons you have onboard - there is no getting away from the fact that boating is 'posh camping'. When stuff goes wrong onboard it can often take weeks to sort out (if you can't do it yourself), as engineers etc are often in demand and boatyards are busy. If you can't do at least some of your own maintenance or don't want to, then you'll struggle.

 

A luxury boat still needs it's water tank filling and effluent removed by hand etc. etc.

 

I'm also thinking of my marina neighbour whose DB has diesel heating and after almost a year of problems, many engineers have been and it's still not sorted. I totally agree with our engineer who says 'keep it simple.'

 

I'm loving it and it's a fantastic adventure but I'm being realistic as I know I might not be fit enough to do it forever.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Chris Pink]

I spent lots of time working with customers who had dreams of living aboard, I reckon about 90% lasted less then two years!

 

Means you got 10% who became long term boaties. Success.

 

I don't think it's the type of boat, people just buy what they can afford and if they can afford a lot they spend a lot.

 

It is irrelevant to whether boating nomadism or houseboat dwelling becomes your thing in the long term that you spend £10K or £100K.

 

It wouldn't make any difference now to my decision to continue.

 

Except that possibly if you can afford to spend a lot on a boat then you will probably have the finances to change your lifestyle more easily than without.

[Gary Peacock]

I actually sold five live aboard boats to people who had never even set foot on a canal boat even though I always dropped the hint that a holiday on one would be a good idea first.

 

On the other hand we did masses of work for a South African couple who had a boat on order for well over a year who then after taking an holiday on a barge in the UK a month before the build start date promptly cancelled claiming it had been an awful experience and wasn't for them after all! (Try filling a cancelled build slot at that short notice or justifying all the work and time spent for £250.00 to the boss!)

[Lady Muck]

Means you got 10% who became long term boaties. Success.

 

I don't think it's the type of boat, people just buy what they can afford and if they can afford a lot they spend a lot.

 

It is irrelevant to whether boating nomadism or houseboat dwelling becomes your thing in the long term that you spend £10K or £100K.

 

It wouldn't make any difference now to my decision to continue.

 

Except that possibly if you can afford to spend a lot on a boat then you will probably have the finances to change your lifestyle more easily than without.

 

If someone only lasts two years then should we be branding them failiures? If they had a great time, got a bit knackered and had the funds to move back to land, then great, surely? Or is it a big test of endurance to see who can last the longest?

 

I for one feel quite sad when I see some of the very elderly liveaboard boaters near us, struggling to go about their daily lives by themselves, in boats that are falling apart. I bet if you offered them a way out, they'd bite your hand off.

 

I actually sold five live aboard boats to people who had never even set foot on a canal boat even though I always dropped the hint that a holiday on one would be a good idea first.

 

Even though I did plenty of community boating (including sleeping in the boatmans in the 'bunk' that was actually a piece of canvas stretched over a broomhandle), nothing could have prepared me for what it's like to liveaboard. My first three months were a very hard period of adjustment.

 

Even hiring in winter, I don't think you'll get a realistic idea of how it is, for instance it's unlikely that something will go wrong and you'll have to try and sort it out by yourself when the boatyard says they are too busy.

 

So you just have to take the risk.

 

I can't imagine doing this without my partner, though, he has been driving nb since he could see over the roof, if I did this with someone who was as novice as me, I'd last five minutes!

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Heffalump]

If someone only lasts two years then should we be branding them failiures? If they had a great time, got a bit knackered and had the funds to move back to land, then great, surely? Or is it a big test of endurance to see who can last the longest?

 

I like this. I consider myself a boater even though I don't own one. I'm joining the airforce in a few months, and if I find that NB's dont fit in with my way of living, does mean I've failed at being a boater? Say I buy one in 6 months to live on at weekends and in holidays, then 2 years later sell it because it's too difficult to do both, will I have failed then?

[casper ghost]

I'm sure there are a few builders who would like to make a name for themselves by making something unique, which may be what the customer wants but they know will not resell well if all the plans fail.

But, having said that I still blame the client...

[Robbo]

After reading another thread I got to thinking about what became of the boats I sold over the last six or so years and the realisation was quite shocking.

 

What percentage had already owned a boat?

[Lady Muck]

I'm with Chris on this one, I don't think it matters what kind of boat it is, cheap or luxury at all, it doesn't matter, because the things that make boating a hard way of life are pretty much the same.

 

I can imagine from what Bottle hinted at on the other thread that it wasn't the design of Whitefield that didn't meet their expectations, it was canal boating (the weather, the having to pump out, the maintenance etc) in general.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Guest]

This is a good thread....thought provoking.

 

My take is that you have to be sure of a number of things:-

 

Can you REALLY manage the boat you are proposing to buy?, this includes manouvering it in the locks and tight spaces.

 

Can you both REALLY manage in a very small confined space.

 

Can you REALLY manage giving up some common home comforts.

 

Are you REALLY happy emptying your excrement from a small holding cassette every few days or getting it emptied via. a pump out every couple of weeks or so.

 

Can you REALLY cope with the hassle of getting your post re-directed to somewhere it can be collected.

 

Can you REALLY cope with passing through a long flight of locks in torrential rain/hail heavy snow.

 

Can you REALLY cope with the hassle of seeing a NHS GP/Dentist when you need to.

 

These are just a few of the questions we are asking, no doubt more experienced members could add more.

 

The nearest we get to assessing if the answer is yes is the couple of trips we've had so far (crewed up) and the two weeks we have booked next April on our own.

 

Jan and I reckon we are about 75% sure we want to go for it at the moment. just needs next April's research.

[Lady Muck]

Great Idea, MJG - I've thought of some more....

 

Are you able to laugh it off without being upset or terrified if:

 

You are woken up at 4am by a drunk runnning up and down your roof?

If you wake up in the morning and you have been cast adrift?

 

Can you handle living on the towpath where kids peer in through your portholes, curious tourists invite themselves onboard and people pass your windows just inches away?

 

How about kids throwing stones? Have to say it's not happened to us this year, but it does?

 

Are you happy walking alone down a towpath somewhere you don't know?

 

At night? (you can't always avoid having to do this)

 

In ankle deep mud?

 

Are you happy to make a compromise by mooring in a town close to the shops and putting up with any possible noise, or hassle, or mooring in the sticks and having a bloody long walk to the shops to buy milk?

 

Are you or your partner happy being alone on the boat, again, not always avoidable?

 

What if one of you is infirm and the other is away? Do you have a plan for this? If one of you gets ill?

 

Can you handle very basic living indeed if (like happened to me last winter), you get a gas leak, water leak, battery charging problems and your handy partner is away an you can't get anyone to come out because of the bad weather.

 

Can you lift a 25kg sack of coal onto the boat in minus 5 freezing black ice conditions, or take a cassette to the emptying point in same weather by towpath because you are iced in?

 

perhaps if we add to this list and then we could make it a sticky....

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[alan_fincher]

I'm going to be controversial, (well, there's a change!).

 

I actually think the kind of company Gary worked for built the kind of boats where the situation he describes was more likely to arise.

 

I've no doubt Ledgard could build a good product, but increasingly those aimed at the UK market veered more and more towards apparent attempts to pack in as much accommodation as possible, often replacing more traditional arrangements (for narrow beam boats, at least), with boxy cabins, and no fore decks. The adverts at one stage actually stressed this difference. Wide-beams seemed to be pushed versus narrow beams, as well.

 

They also went heavily down the route of massive battery banks, generators, freezers, etc, etc. In fact vast amounts of equipment one thinks of in a home, but not nrcessarily in a boat.

 

IMO this attracts people where it is far more about the accommodation than any real love of the canals or rivers, or any real wish to cruise.

 

Even if the boat has a stonking great price tag, and what is perceived as heaps of creature comforts, for those not expecting it, it will quickly prove not to be like a small luxury flat.

 

Water tanks need filling, but water points freeze up.

Toilet cassettes or holding tanks need emptying - those facilities can freeze up to.

Diesel fired heating run continually can quickly become unreliable. The simple alternative of a coal stove works well, but means humping coal, and an acceptance that there can be a lot of dust.

Shut all the windows, and condensation may be rife.

If you have gone "gas free"/"all electric" you have built a huge dependence on electricity, such that constant engine or generator running may e required.

(The list is a lot longer, of course).

 

People who have lived with canal boats over the years know all this, and roughly what they might be getting in to. Those who just fancy a life-style change, but have not really ever tried it may be in for a very large jolt.

 

My guess is that Gary's company sold a proportionally higher percentage of it's boats to people in the second category than is the case with many boat builders and boat-fitters. I think this was simply because of the type of boat on offer, in many cases. People who actually want to use them will, (in my view!), often eschew the extra space of wide-beams ad "barge style" boats, and settle for something they know from experience will allow them to transit the largest spread of waterways with a relatively suitable craft, and which can best be worked on all canals in all weathers.

 

Finally, those that stick with the life are probably (again in my view) those that have invested (maybe) £30K to £50K on some carefully chosen second-hand boat. Those that spend £100K plus without ever having sampled one seem far more likely not to stay around. Spending £200K plus seems to make failure even more likely, doesn't it!

 

I expect to get shot down in flames, but that's how I see it!

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[Guest]

Finally, those that stick with the life are probably (again in my view) those that have invested (maybe) £30K to £50K on some carefully chosen second-hand boat. Those that spend £100K plus without ever having sampled one seem far more likely not to stay around. Spending £200K plus seems to make failure even more likely, doesn't it!

 

Well I hope you are correct, that's our current plan..

[tomsk]

I'm going to be controversial, (well, there's a change!).

 

I actually think the kind of company Gary worked for built the kind of boats where the situation he describes was more likely to arise.

 

I've no doubt Ledgard could build a good product, but increasingly those aimed at the UK market veered more and more towards apparent attempts to pack in as much accommodation as possible, often replacing more traditional arrangements (for narrow beam boats, at least), with boxy cabins, and no fore decks. The adverts at one stage actually stressed this difference. Wide-beams seemed to be pushed versus narrow beams, as well.

 

They also went heavily down the route of massive battery banks, generators, freezers, etc, etc. In fact vast amounts of equipment one thinks of in a home, but not nrcessarily in a boat.

 

IMO this attracts people where it is far more about the accommodation than any real love of the canals or rivers, or any real wish to cruise.

 

Even if the boat has a stonking great price tag, and what is perceived as heaps of creature comforts, for those not expecting it, it will quickly prove not to be like a small luxury flat.

 

Water tanks need filling, but water points freeze up.

Toilet cassettes or holding tanks need emptying - those facilities can freeze up to.

Diesel fired heating run continually can quickly become unreliable. The simple alternative of a coal stove works well, but means humping coal, and an acceptance that there can be a lot of dust.

Shut all the windows, and condensation may be rife.

If you have gone "gas free"/"all electric" you have built a huge dependence on electricity, such that constant engine or generator running may e required.

(The list is a lot longer, of course).

 

People who have lived with canal boats over the years know all this, and roughly what they might be getting in to. Those who just fancy a life-style change, but have not really ever tried it may be in for a very large jolt.

 

My guess is that Gary's company sold a proportionally higher percentage of it's boats to people in the second category than is the case with many boat builders and boat-fitters. I think this was simply because of the type of boat on offer, in many cases. People who actually want to use them will, (in my view!), often eschew the extra space of wide-beams ad "barge style" boats, and settle for something they know from experience will allow them to transit the largest spread of waterways with a relatively suitable craft, and which can best be worked on all canals in all weathers.

 

Finally, those that stick with the life are probably (again in my view) those that have invested (maybe) £30K to £50K on some carefully chosen second-hand boat. Those that spend £100K plus without ever having sampled one seem far more likely not to stay around. Spending £200K plus seems to make failure even more likely, doesn't it!

 

I expect to get shot down in flames, but that's how I see it!

 

 

Wordy but accurate.

[Chris Pink]

Are you able to laugh it off without being upset or terrified if:

 

You are woken up at 4am by a drunk runnning up and down your roof?

If you wake up in the morning and you have been cast adrift?

 

Can you handle living on the towpath where kids peer in through your portholes, curious tourists invite themselves onboard and people pass your windows just inches away?

 

How about kids throwing stones? Have to say it's not happened to us this year, but it does?

 

Are you happy walking alone down a towpath somewhere you don't know?

 

At night? (you can't always avoid having to do this)

 

In ankle deep mud?

 

Are you happy to make a compromise by mooring in a town close to the shops and putting up with any possible noise, or hassle, or mooring in the sticks and having a bloody long walk to the shops to buy milk?

 

Are you or your partner happy being alone on the boat, again, not always avoidable?

 

What if one of you is infirm and the other is away? Do you have a plan for this? If one of you gets ill?

 

Can you handle very basic living indeed if (like happened to me last winter), you get a gas leak, water leak, battery charging problems and your handy partner is away an you can't get anyone to come out because of the bad weather.

 

Can you lift a 25kg sack of coal onto the boat in minus 5 freezing black ice conditions, or take a cassette to the emptying point in same weather by towpath because you are iced in?

 

perhaps if we add to this list and then we could make it a sticky....

 

Personally I find this lot a whole lot easier than managing the complexity, restrictions and bondage of the modern house.

 

...and MJG's list, I could swap 'manage' and 'cope' for 'embrace' and 'enjoy' for most of them, but then it is that kind of difference to house dwellers that means living on a boat suits me fine.

 

I don't know why there is this idea that boat living is to be endured, any more than any lifestyle has its difficulties.

 

Though if I had the sort of money Gary is talking about, I would probably not choose to live on the canals of England. I'd pay 10% of the capital on the boat and the other 90% on setting up in a more clement climate.

 

I probably will anyway when BW get their way and fill in the canals and paint them blue with plastic ducks.

[Lady Muck]

Personally I find this lot a whole lot easier than managing the complexity, restrictions and bondage of the modern house.

 

Yeah, but there are alot of people who don't - you only have to read some of the letters on nbw - some people are utterly terrified of getting attacked by 'yobbos' as they call them.

 

My mum was horrified when she heard about the drunk on our roof in Manchester, we thought it was funny.

 

ETA sorry Alan, I accidentally edited your post but its back - I'm gonna blame the flakey 2g connection I've got here tonight.

 

They also went heavily down the route of massive battery banks, generators, freezers, etc, etc. In fact vast amounts of equipment one thinks of in a home, but not nrcessarily in a boat.

 

They probably didn't think about where/how often they were going to have to buy the diesel /petrol to run these behemoth gennies either. We've just spent three weeks on the Aire and Calder where there is only one place to buy diesel. If you are buying for a genny, not everyone will sell it at the correct duty rate. Three places we visited had actually sold out. Petrol can be a pain to find, buy, transport and store. So if you use alot of fuel you might have to do alot of hunting for places to buy from.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[LoneWolf]

If someone only lasts two years then should we be branding them failiures? If they had a great time, got a bit knackered and had the funds to move back to land, then great, surely? Or is it a big test of endurance to see who can last the longest?

 

I for one feel quite sad when I see some of the very elderly liveaboard boaters near us, struggling to go about their daily lives by themselves, in boats that are falling apart. I bet if you offered them a way out, they'd bite your hand off.

 

 

 

Even though I did plenty of community boating (including sleeping in the boatmans in the 'bunk' that was actually a piece of canvas stretched over a broomhandle), nothing could have prepared me for what it's like to liveaboard. My first three months were a very hard period of adjustment.

 

Even hiring in winter, I don't think you'll get a realistic idea of how it is, for instance it's unlikely that something will go wrong and you'll have to try and sort it out by yourself when the boatyard says they are too busy.

 

So you just have to take the risk.

 

I can't imagine doing this without my partner, though, he has been driving nb since he could see over the roof, if I did this with someone who was as novice as me, I'd last five minutes!

 

 

Interesting discussion.

 

There's a lot of truth in the above. I've only been onboard for about 2 1/2 months now so probably still in the honeymoon period. I wouldn't say it was 'hard' as such (so far - but winter has yet to come!) but it's a steep learning curve. Everything takes a lot longer as I think it should - it took me all afternoon to change the oil & filter today. In the next 2 days I'll be fitting a new sf stove (test fire & investigation revealed the existing one cracked & falling appart - 4 week book at the boatyard)

 

But I'm loving it.

[LoneWolf]

This is a good thread....thought provoking.

 

My take is that you have to be sure of a number of things:-

 

Can you REALLY manage the boat you are proposing to buy?, this includes manouvering it in the locks and tight spaces.

 

Can you both REALLY manage in a very small confined space.

 

Can you REALLY manage giving up some common home comforts.

 

Are you REALLY happy emptying your excrement from a small holding cassette every few days or getting it emptied via. a pump out every couple of weeks or so.

 

Can you REALLY cope with the hassle of getting your post re-directed to somewhere it can be collected.

 

Can you REALLY cope with passing through a long flight of locks in torrential rain/hail heavy snow.

 

Can you REALLY cope with the hassle of seeing a NHS GP/Dentist when you need to.

 

These are just a few of the questions we are asking, no doubt more experienced members could add more.

 

The nearest we get to assessing if the answer is yes is the couple of trips we've had so far (crewed up) and the two weeks we have booked next April on our own.

 

Jan and I reckon we are about 75% sure we want to go for it at the moment. just needs next April's research.

 

 

Yes - All easy ones

 

 

Great Idea, MJG - I've thought of some more....

 

Are you able to laugh it off without being upset or terrified if:

 

You are woken up at 4am by a drunk runnning up and down your roof?

If you wake up in the morning and you have been cast adrift?

 

Can you handle living on the towpath where kids peer in through your portholes, curious tourists invite themselves onboard and people pass your windows just inches away?

 

How about kids throwing stones? Have to say it's not happened to us this year, but it does?

 

Are you happy walking alone down a towpath somewhere you don't know?

 

At night? (you can't always avoid having to do this)

 

In ankle deep mud?

 

Are you happy to make a compromise by mooring in a town close to the shops and putting up with any possible noise, or hassle, or mooring in the sticks and having a bloody long walk to the shops to buy milk?

 

Are you or your partner happy being alone on the boat, again, not always avoidable?

 

What if one of you is infirm and the other is away? Do you have a plan for this? If one of you gets ill?

 

Can you handle very basic living indeed if (like happened to me last winter), you get a gas leak, water leak, battery charging problems and your handy partner is away an you can't get anyone to come out because of the bad weather.

 

Can you lift a 25kg sack of coal onto the boat in minus 5 freezing black ice conditions, or take a cassette to the emptying point in same weather by towpath because you are iced in?

 

perhaps if we add to this list and then we could make it a sticky....

 

Yes to most & probably to the rest.

 

You could add - "can you cope with reading endless tedious discussions about oil to find out what sort to buy" ;-)

[deletedaccount]

I'm with Chris on this one, I don't think it matters what kind of boat it is, cheap or luxury at all, it doesn't matter, because the things that make boating a hard way of life are pretty much the same.

 

I can imagine from what Bottle hinted at on the other thread that it wasn't the design of Whitefield that didn't meet their expectations, it was canal boating (the weather, the having to pump out, the maintenance etc) in general.

 

I'm not sure about this. With my boat (only a couple of years old) I feel like I can adress each issue as it come up, rather then being lumped with a ton at a time. Last week it was the batteries, this week it's the toilet. Before that it was the paintwork. But it's one thing at a time rather than a bunch of inherited problems.

 

That said, it's only been six weeks since I got it!