Qualifications required for French Waterways

[Johnymac]

When cruising the French waterways what are the minimum qualifications (if any) required as a non resident of Europe? ( I am on a New Zealand passport.) And how are they best obtained? Thanking you for your imput. JM

[GUMPY]

When cruising the French waterways what are the minimum qualifications (if any) required as a non resident of Europe? ( I am on a New Zealand passport.) And how are they best obtained? Thanking you for your imput. JM

 

My normal answer to this would be if its your own boat then an ICC with Cevni endorsement, The RYA do them here for UK nationals, Best check with your national sailing association.

However if you are hiring a boat then I believe that no qualification is needed.

 

J

[enigma]

Please look at the Inland Waterways Cruising School web site for information on how to do it and give them a telephone call.

[blackrose]

I just took the ICC/CEVNI today, together with the RYA Inland Waterways Helmsmans Certificate.

 

Never having previously taken any formal training myself (apart from a VHF course), I've nevertheless always agreed with others on the forum that one can learn a lot from boat handling courses and that it will inspire greater confidence.

 

Well, my expectations were obviously way too high. I can honestly say that apart from the self-study required to learn the European waterways conventions, I actually learned very little from the course. How disappointing!

 

I passed the ICC/CEVNI and have the IWHC (which from what I can gather is a bit meaningless), but apart from that I feel like I wasted the day and a lot of money!

Edited October 24, 2009 by blackrose

[Phil Ambrose]

I just took the ICC/CEVNI today, together with the RYA Inland Waterways Helmsmans Certificate.

 

Never having previously taken any formal training myself (apart from a VHF course), I've nevertheless always agreed with others on the forum that one can learn a lot from boat handling courses and that it will inspire greater confidence.

 

Well, my expectations were obviously way too high. I can honestly say that apart from the self-study required to learn the European waterways conventions, I actually learned very little from the course. How disappointing!

 

I passed the ICC/CEVNI and have the IWHC (which from what I can gather is a bit meaningless), but apart from that I feel like I wasted the day and a lot of money!

 

But you can sleep easily in the knowledge that you have fulfilled the requirements for cruising continental waters. From what I have read you should be prepared to have your documents examined at anytime, the police have the right to board your vessel to check all is in order (even down to the colour of your fuel) and as far as I know they do exercise their right.

 

Phil

[ditchcrawler]

When cruising the French waterways what are the minimum qualifications (if any) required as a non resident of Europe? ( I am on a New Zealand passport.) And how are they best obtained? Thanking you for your imput. JM

Try PM'ing Tam and Di Murrell

[blackrose]

But you can sleep easily in the knowledge that you have fulfilled the requirements for cruising continental waters. From what I have read you should be prepared to have your documents examined at anytime, the police have the right to board your vessel to check all is in order (even down to the colour of your fuel) and as far as I know they do exercise their right.

 

Phil

 

It does happen here too - just that they're not checking documents. Plenty of boats get boarded by the police on the Thames going through London.

Edited October 24, 2009 by blackrose

[Tam & Di]

my expectations were obviously way too high. I can honestly say that apart from the self-study required to learn the European waterways conventions, I actually learned very little from the course. How disappointing!

 

I passed the ICC/CEVNI and have the IWHC (which from what I can gather is a bit meaningless), but apart from that I feel like I wasted the day and a lot of money!

 

I've stated my views on the IWHC often enough on here to be getting a bit tedious, but it is basically a very good course as an introduction to UK canals. Once it gets used for any other purpose, such as serving as the practical element for an ICC with Inland endorsement, it is potentially a dangerous illusion and can give a person a false sense of competence. It is an attendance course with no criteria for fail given by the RYA. The ICC (Inland) is totally irrelevant in the UK, and the only point in having it is that it is the basic licence required for cruising with a pleasure boat up to 24m (80') on the continent. But there are very few IWHC instructors with experience of continental waters, and those few who do cannot replicate it on UK canals.

 

I think the OP has his answer, but to summarise, if he is hiring a boat he will not require a licence as the French are very pragmatic and don't want to kill the hireboat industry. If he has his own craft or is hiring/borrowing from someone who is not registered as a hirer he will have to have a licence. If he has UK citizenship he can get an RYA ICC (Inland), for what it is worth in practical terms. Otherwise he will have to get a licence from a country that will issue one to people who are not their nationals, e.g. France or Holland. The category of licence will depend upon the size of vessel he wishes to steer. We have put up an amendment to the UN that will make an ICC available to all nationalities, but it will take at least a year to pass through the system.

 

Certainly boat inspections are getting much more common than they used to be. As posted, an inspection can be very thorough and include mandatory equipment such as extinguishers and life jackets/life buoys, registration and steerer's documents, that you are using white diesel, and a whole wadge of other things. Belgian inspectors are getting particularly heavy.

[blackrose]

I've stated my views on the IWHC often enough on here to be getting a bit tedious, but it is basically a very good course as an introduction to UK canals. Once it gets used for any other purpose, such as serving as the practical element for an ICC with Inland endorsement, it is potentially a dangerous illusion and can give a person a false sense of competence. It is an attendance course with no criteria for fail given by the RYA. The ICC (Inland) is totally irrelevant in the UK, and the only point in having it is that it is the basic licence required for cruising with a pleasure boat up to 24m (80') on the continent. But there are very few IWHC instructors with experience of continental waters, and those few who do cannot replicate it on UK canals.

Yes the IWHC is definately a basic introductory course - I guess I should have done a bit more research beforehand.

As for it being used as the practical element of the ICC I tend to agree with you, but it hasn't made me feel any more competant.

[Tam & Di]

Yes the IWHC is definately a basic introductory course - I guess I should have done a bit more research beforehand.

As for it being used as the practical element of the ICC I tend to agree with you, but it hasn't made me feel any more competant.

 

No, but I guess you have quite a bit of experience with your craft and in the UK, and had some yardstick to measure the course information by.

 

The essence of one couple's unfortunate experience earlier this year was: Couple take early retirement, have friends who have a boat in France, have no boating background themselves but decide "that sounds fun", buy boat in Rotterdam, go to RYA school in UK to get trained (2 day course) and get the essential ICC - having told the instructor they will be using their new gained skill in Holland and France, return straightway to Rotterdam secure in the knowledge they now know "boating", get into their second lock, leave second lock but also leave the tips of two fingers on the lockside!

 

This is sadly a true tale, and not altogether unusual, though the consequence of the accident was maybe more severe than most. One difference in Europe is that the job of crew demands much more skill. The accidents are often caused by the steerer, but happen to the crew, and the IWHC does not really cover the crewing skills that are required over here.

[blackrose]

[/i]

 

No, but I guess you have quite a bit of experience with your craft and in the UK, and had some yardstick to measure the course information by.

 

The essence of one couple's unfortunate experience earlier this year was: Couple take early retirement, have friends who have a boat in France, have no boating background themselves but decide "that sounds fun", buy boat in Rotterdam, go to RYA school in UK to get trained (2 day course) and get the essential ICC - having told the instructor they will be using their new gained skill in Holland and France, return straightway to Rotterdam secure in the knowledge they now know "boating", get into their second lock, leave second lock but also leave the tips of two fingers on the lockside!

 

This is sadly a true tale, and not altogether unusual, though the consequence of the accident was maybe more severe than most. One difference in Europe is that the job of crew demands much more skill. The accidents are often caused by the steerer, but happen to the crew, and the IWHC does not really cover the crewing skills that are required over here.

 

Do many peiple move small barges single-handed on the continent or is it frowned upon? Some Thames lockkeepers don't particularly like it, but that's the only place I have any problem.

Edited October 25, 2009 by blackrose

[Tam & Di]

Do many peiple move small barges single-handed on the continent or is it frowned upon? Some Thames lockkeepers don't particularly like it, but that's the only place I have any problem.

 

The regs say you must have a competent crew person when on rivers. If you can take your boat to the Canal du Midi by road, or to the Nivernais or Burgundy Canals, they are not dissimilar to UK canals. If you arrive at Calais and boat from there you are immediately in locks 140m x 12.5m. It is not uncommon to have to share these with loaded craft 60m or even 80m, and the usual way they pass a lock is to put one bow line onto the lock side and keep their engine in forward gear with the rudder held over to keep the boat steady as the lock fills. If you as a pleasure craft have to go into the lock behind them you have to be able to cope with the turbulence they are creating while you get your own line(s) onto the lockside. Not particularly easy if you are on your own, especially so if you don't even have side decks to get from one end of your craft to the other. You can wait until there are no commercial craft wanting to use the lock, but the regs do say that a pleasurecraft has no right of passage if it is on its own and you might have to wait quite a while for another pleasure boat to share with. Or you can hope that there is just one commercial, and that you can sit back a long way away from him - again you may or may not be lucky.

 

It's bad enough coming to France with a narrowboat or even a UK canal widebeam one with its lack of deck space, as they are really unsuitable and potentially dangerous. To consider doing it one-handed would be the height of stupidity.

 

With a barge which had decent side decks and working space on the bow and stern; which had proper "continental" style pairs of bollards in the correct positions; which had sufficiently powerful and reliable engine (and for one handed work probably a bow thruster too); which was operated by a very competent person with a lot of experience of continental barging - "yes" on all the smaller waterways, "probably get away with it" on most of the larger ones but it would be a risk, and rivers would still be asking for trouble.

[ditchcrawler]

Do many peiple move small barges single-handed on the continent or is it frowned upon? Some Thames lockkeepers don't particularly like it, but that's the only place I have any problem.

I had great pleasure in watching a chap moor his barge of about 3000 tons single handed. I am sure he had a crew but she was probably cooking dinner as it was early evening. I just wish I could moor my narrow boat as neatly

You can see the report of our trip and this very nice bit of boat handling at

http://nbharnser.blogspot.com/2009/10/oste...13-22-2009.html

[blackrose]

The regs say you must have a competent crew person when on rivers. If you can take your boat to the Canal du Midi by road, or to the Nivernais or Burgundy Canals, they are not dissimilar to UK canals. If you arrive at Calais and boat from there you are immediately in locks 140m x 12.5m. It is not uncommon to have to share these with loaded craft 60m or even 80m, and the usual way they pass a lock is to put one bow line onto the lock side and keep their engine in forward gear with the rudder held over to keep the boat steady as the lock fills. If you as a pleasure craft have to go into the lock behind them you have to be able to cope with the turbulence they are creating while you get your own line(s) onto the lockside. Not particularly easy if you are on your own, especially so if you don't even have side decks to get from one end of your craft to the other. You can wait until there are no commercial craft wanting to use the lock, but the regs do say that a pleasurecraft has no right of passage if it is on its own and you might have to wait quite a while for another pleasure boat to share with. Or you can hope that there is just one commercial, and that you can sit back a long way away from him - again you may or may not be lucky.

 

It's bad enough coming to France with a narrowboat or even a UK canal widebeam one with its lack of deck space, as they are really unsuitable and potentially dangerous. To consider doing it one-handed would be the height of stupidity.

 

With a barge which had decent side decks and working space on the bow and stern; which had proper "continental" style pairs of bollards in the correct positions; which had sufficiently powerful and reliable engine (and for one handed work probably a bow thruster too); which was operated by a very competent person with a lot of experience of continental barging - "yes" on all the smaller waterways, "probably get away with it" on most of the larger ones but it would be a risk, and rivers would still be asking for trouble.

 

A few years ago I helped someone take their boat from Calais to St Jean de Losne, near Dijon in central France and it wasn't nearly as difficult or dangerous as you describe.

 

I'm all for health and safety and if it's not possible to do it single handed then fair enough, but I can't help thinking you're being a bit sensationalist - perhaps you have your reasons.

Edited October 25, 2009 by blackrose

[tomsk]

A few years ago I helped someone take their boat from Calais to St Jean de Losne, near Dijon in central France and it wasn't nearly as difficult or dangerous as you describe.

 

I'm all for health and safety but I can't help thinking you're being a bit sensationalist - perhaps you have your reasons.

 

 

I don't understand the point of your post, are you saying Tam and Di are overstating the very real risks to try and gain customers for their school? If so please just state that.

 

It strikes me that they answered your inquiry using the benefit of their huge experience of continental boating in a proper barge, you can't ask a question and then poo-poo the answer if it's not the one you wanted, that could be viewed by some as very silly indeed.

[ditchcrawler]

A few years ago I helped someone take their boat from Calais to St Jean de Losne, near Dijon in central France and it wasn't nearly as difficult or dangerous as you describe.

 

I'm all for health and safety and if it's not possible to do it single handed then fair enough, but I can't help thinking you're being a bit sensationalist - perhaps you have your reasons.

I have done the course with Di and Tam and have great respect for the way a crew needs training. I have seen first hand what happens when you try and work a lock with ropes the same as you do on a narrow boat in the UK and it was not the best of experiences.

[blackrose]

I don't understand the point of your post, are you saying Tam and Di are overstating the very real risks to try and gain customers for their school? If so please just state that.

 

It strikes me that they answered your inquiry using the benefit of their huge experience of continental boating in a proper barge, you can't ask a question and then poo-poo the answer if it's not the one you wanted, that could be viewed by some as very silly indeed.

 

Sorry I thought this was an open forum for discussion? Actually I can disagree with someone without your permission or anyone else's.

 

If my experience differs from someone else's then why shouldn't I comment? I still don't think you've quite understood how the forum works.

 

I have done the course with Di and Tam and have great respect for the way a crew needs training. I have seen first hand what happens when you try and work a lock with ropes the same as you do on a narrow boat in the UK and it was not the best of experiences.

 

Who said anything about using ropes in locks in the same way as one does on a narrowboat in the UK?

Edited October 25, 2009 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

Sorry I thought this was an open forum for discussion? Actually I can disagree with someone without your permission or anyone else's.

 

If my experience differs from someone else's then why shouldn't I comment?

 

I asked if many people moved their barges single handed, not if it was possible. I know it' can be done because my friend does it all the time.

 

 

 

 

Who said anything about using ropes in locks in the same way as one does on a narrowboat in the UK?

OK, I was not getting at you ether. I think, and I am not going back to check, that one of the point Tam made was that the courses run in the UK don't train crews and that someone doing the courses offered in the UK could well find things different on the Continent. I was just reinforcing this point by MY experiences just like you made your point by YOUR experiences.

[blackrose]

OK, I was not getting at you ether. I think, and I am not going back to check, that one of the point Tam made was that the courses run in the UK don't train crews and that someone doing the courses offered in the UK could well find things different on the Continent. I was just reinforcing this point by MY experiences just like you made your point by YOUR experiences.

 

Ok, and you are well within your rights to express your opinion - sorry if I took it the wrong way.

[tomsk]

Sorry I thought this was an open forum for discussion? Actually I can disagree with someone without your permission or anyone else's.

 

If my experience differs from someone else's then why shouldn't I comment?

 

I asked if many people moved their barges single handed, not if it was possible. I know it's possible because my friend does it all the time.

 

 

 

 

Who said anything about using ropes in the same way as one does on a narrowboat?

 

 

I'm sorry Rose, my mistake.

 

Of course it's in no way churlish or silly to disagree with an answer given honestly and in great detail to a question you asked by someone who is a 'Continental Canal Professional' and therefore probably THE best qualified to give an answer of all CW forum user I am aware of. Your single experience of continental boating several years ago helping your friend clearly puts you in the same league and frankly begs the question;

 

'Why ask a question you clearly think you know the answer to on the basis of your huge Continental Canal experience'.

 

Your snide remark about motives is unworthy and not a little sad, you would do well to retract it and apologise for accusing T+D of trying to make business when all they were doing was trying to help YOU with YOUR inquiry. Grim indeed.

[Tam & Di]

A few years ago I helped someone take their boat from Calais to St Jean de Losne, near Dijon in central France and it wasn't nearly as difficult or dangerous as you describe.

 

I'm all for health and safety and if it's not possible to do it single handed then fair enough, but I can't help thinking you're being a bit sensationalist - perhaps you have your reasons.

 

Actually I did say it is not much different to boating in the UK on the small waterways, though I did say that on the larger ones, especially those with commercial traffic, it would be extremely silly to be single handed unless you had a craft which was suitable for such waterways and were suitably skilled yourself. I tried to make explicit why I think that. I'm glad you and your friend got safely down to St Jean de Losne, but if you did not appreciate the risks involved that just means you were lucky, as they certainly exist.

 

Yes, I have reasons. The majority of French commercial boatmen are of the opinion that all pleasurecraft, especially if from the UK, are crewed by inept idiots, and it is difficult to refute that when I so often see boaters confirming it with my own eyes. Everyone starts off as inexperienced, but unfortunately some seem not to realise that there is anything to learn. French canals are under threat just now from lack of maintenance funding, and it needs all users to work together to try to combat this - not easy if you are seen as stupid and incompetent by one powerful sector of users. This also leads to the French authorities getting heavier with visiting craft, which makes my life more difficult in many respects.

 

I also enjoy watching anyone carrying out some activity with skill and knowledge, whatever that activity might be. I have to confess though to great embarrassment when I see people making a meal out of the simple task of taking a boat through a lock, and if they are also endangering themselves it is quite difficult not to interfere.

[Tam & Di]

A few years ago I helped someone take their boat from Calais to St Jean de Losne, near Dijon in central France and it wasn't nearly as difficult or dangerous as you describe.

 

I'm all for health and safety and if it's not possible to do it single handed then fair enough, but I can't help thinking you're being a bit sensationalist - perhaps you have your reasons.

 

I see I did not answer your feeling that I am being sensationalist. In the past few years, in addition to the woman I described who lost the tips of two fingers within a few days of starting their voyage of discovery, there has been

i) woman standing unsuspectingly on the coil of line she is tending at the fore end. Boat surges forward; husband is working through locks using two lines rather than as I described previously and is not in a position to use the engine to prevent woman's leg being very severely and permanently damaged.

ii) woman comes down lock ladder (for reasons unknown - not a thing I would ordinarily expect to be happening); boat surges sideways crushing her leg; she is permanently in a wheelchair.

iii) woman suffers very severe rope burn from having a line sliding through her hands.

iv) plus numerous less severe cases of sprain/bruising of crew as they tend lines;

v) instances too frequent to number of boats getting hung up on their lines as they are going down in a lock, and where the only solution was for the steerer to quickly cut the line to avert catastrophy.

 

The common factor there, other than inexperience, is as I suggested in the earlier mail, the accidents are generally happening to the crew. I know accidents happen on UK canals too, but the number of UK boats over here is minute compared to the UK and I think the accident rate is far higher.

 

I'm certainly the last one to go on about health and safety, but just because it is possible to take a narrowboat to Carcassonne does not mean that boating here is the same as the South Oxford but with sunshine. I may be a spoilsport, but I'm just trying to bring that to people's attention. After that it's up to them.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Tam & Di

[blackrose]

I'm sorry Rose, my mistake.

 

Of course it's in no way churlish or silly to disagree with an answer given honestly and in great detail to a question you asked by someone who is a 'Continental Canal Professional' and therefore probably THE best qualified to give an answer of all CW forum user I am aware of. Your single experience of continental boating several years ago helping your friend clearly puts you in the same league and frankly begs the question;

 

'Why ask a question you clearly think you know the answer to on the basis of your huge Continental Canal experience'.

 

Your snide remark about motives is unworthy and not a little sad, you would do well to retract it and apologise for accusing T+D of trying to make business when all they were doing was trying to help YOU with YOUR inquiry. Grim indeed.

 

Yes it was your mistake, thank you for your apology.

 

Firstly I haven't had a single continental boating experience, I have had several - I refered to the one from Calais because that was mentioned in the previous post.

 

Secondly my question, which wasn't adressed to any one person, but the whole forum, asked if many people cruised single handed. In part, Tam & Di's response answered a slightly different question regarding the safety of single handed cruising. I said they had their reasons for doing so because their primary concern is safety on the waterways. I was'nt casting any aspersions as you suggest, but if that's the way it came across then my apologies to them..

Edited October 26, 2009 by blackrose

[tomsk]

Yes it was your mistake, thank you for your apology.

 

Firstly I haven't had a single continental boating experience, I have had several - I refered to the one from Calais because that was mentioned in the previous post.

 

Secondly my question, which wasn't adressed to any one person, but the whole forum, asked if many people cruised single handed. In part, Tam & Di's response answered a slightly different question regarding the safety of single handed cruising. I said they had their reasons for doing so because their primary concern is safety on the waterways. I was'nt casting any aspersions as you suggest, but if that's the way it came across then my apologies to them..

 

 

Rose darlling, I think it's perfectly obvious to anyone who reads your posts what you meant, and it's very big of you to offer your apologies, well done.. Shame you have to twist and turn your words though, but that seems to have become a speciality of some of the forum members just recently. x

Edited October 26, 2009 by tomsk

[blackrose]

I see I did not answer your feeling that I am being sensationalist. In the past few years, in addition to the woman I described who lost the tips of two fingers within a few days of starting their voyage of discovery, there has been

i) woman standing unsuspectingly on the coil of line she is tending at the fore end. Boat surges forward; husband is working through locks using two lines rather than as I described previously and is not in a position to use the engine to prevent woman's leg being very severely and permanently damaged.

ii) woman comes down lock ladder (for reasons unknown - not a thing I would ordinarily expect to be happening); boat surges sideways crushing her leg; she is permanently in a wheelchair.

iii) woman suffers very severe rope burn from having a line sliding through her hands.

iv) plus numerous less severe cases of sprain/bruising of crew as they tend lines;

v) instances too frequent to number of boats getting hung up on their lines as they are going down in a lock, and where the only solution was for the steerer to quickly cut the line to avert catastrophy.

 

The common factor there, other than inexperience, is as I suggested in the earlier mail, the accidents are generally happening to the crew. I know accidents happen on UK canals too, but the number of UK boats over here is minute compared to the UK and I think the accident rate is far higher.

 

I'm certainly the last one to go on about health and safety, but just because it is possible to take a narrowboat to Carcassonne does not mean that boating here is the same as the South Oxford but with sunshine. I may be a spoilsport, but I'm just trying to bring that to people's attention. After that it's up to them.

 

Fair enough, I was going to say that there are plenty of accidents on the UK waterways too, but you already made that point.

 

If there are a disproportionate number of accidents on continental waterways involving boaters from the UK then it would back up what you say. I haven't seen the statistics but I would tend to think that any recreational boater from any country is at a disadvantage on the continental waterways where commercial craft rule.