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Pumping the tiller...


mykaskin

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Failing an exam for pumping the tiller just about shows what a load of crap the RYA course is. How to pump the tiller is what is needed by newcomers, try winding a motor in Norton Pool with a butty without pumping the tiller. Pumping the tiller means a sharp thrust then a slow return followed by a thrust again, and repeated until the speed of winding increases suitably, a motor will almost spin on a axis in the right situation. It fiightens me to think a young recruit could be put on this course then the following day be put onto a loaded maintenance vessel. A few hours on a light tin box then given a waterborne HGV. scary! Having just taught two people to steer astern on a GU motor for quite a distance, one picked it up straight away understanding the hydrodynamics perfectly, the other was incapable. This alone should be part of test for anyone who ultimately could be handling a large heavy craft.

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Failing an exam for pumping the tiller just about shows what a load of crap the RYA course is. How to pump the tiller is what is needed by newcomers, try winding a motor in Norton Pool with a butty without pumping the tiller. Pumping the tiller means a sharp thrust then a slow return followed by a thrust again, and repeated until the speed of winding increases suitably, a motor will almost spin on a axis in the right situation. It fiightens me to think a young recruit could be put on this course then the following day be put onto a loaded maintenance vessel. A few hours on a light tin box then given a waterborne HGV. scary! Having just taught two people to steer astern on a GU motor for quite a distance, one picked it up straight away understanding the hydrodynamics perfectly, the other was incapable. This alone should be part of test for anyone who ultimately could be handling a large heavy craft.

 

 

Laurence, I agree, (1) pumping the tiller should not fail a boat handling exam (although pumping the out drive might) and (2) the RYA exam is not fit for purpose if you are steering a working pair. I have a lot of respect for you but you are taking a very inland, indeed working boat, perspective. The RYA exam is not designed for that.

 

In another thread we were asked how often the RNLI got called out to a drunk crew on the T and M, in this one, having started off offending people, I will ask how many are steering loaded working pairs. Is it not possible that the RYA exam doesn't cover that?

 

My boat is, in the public perception, a narrow boat, pumping has little to no effect, I have conceded that different boats in different waters might, nay probably will, handle differently. I'm not making an egotistical point, I'm trying to show all that it varies with waters and craft. If I (capital I) were to give general advice on how to handle ANY (capital ANY) boat, not just the one you know, I would say don't rely on pumping.

 

To the others, I know I've changed tack, I've tried my own boat (which has done exactly the opposite of what I what I was told it would, pumping works at

high revs but not at low) know go away and work it out, it's what works for you. Pumping doesn't work for me, on Ripple, on the G and S.

 

And I can think of one reason why pumping might fail (not that it should) if you are sailing a strange boat into strange harbour and assume that pumping will give you that extra inch...

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Failing an exam for pumping the tiller just about shows what a load of crap the RYA course is.

 

Actually it's not the RYA Inland Waterways Helmsman Certificate exam, but the MCA Boat Master Licence boat handling examination that you would fail.

 

Both exams (I suspect) are useless for working boats (especially pairs) which have a completely different set of problems from "normal" boats (and I'm talking about river trip boats, ships, and other commercial and pleasure craft).

 

The Helmsman course takes you through a set of maneuvers, but you would still pass even if you only just managed it with instruction from the trainer, along with the Community boat training course it is unfit for purpose with regards ensuring a level of ability suitable for maintaining safety of the boat.

 

The BML is a different animal, and involves many hours of structured training on, around, and about the boat and other safety aspects - and does include limits to the scope of the activities (i.e. a person capable of taking a loaded gravel barge can not just take a passenger service without extra training). However, I suspect it still doesn't define a suitable minimum ability of someone to handle a boat. However since there is a company who own the boats they also have a responsibility to ensure their crews can handle the boat competently and so should give them training and practice under controlled conditions. For working boats, The Narrow Boat Trust are probably one of the few that have a full structured training course suitable for BML, but even then the Steerers (person in charge) have a wide range of abilities.

 

I suspect like everywhere, various people within the same job have differing abilities - even those that have all been through the same training course. All you can do is ensure reasonable safety requirements.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

ps. I'm a little surprised at pumping would fail you in the BML as I would have thought so long as you can show you have full control of the vessel at all times it would not define how you do so.

Edited by mykaskin
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Laurence, I agree, (1) pumping the tiller should not fail a boat handling exam (although pumping the out drive might) and (2) the RYA exam is not fit for purpose if you are steering a working pair. I have a lot of respect for you but you are taking a very inland, indeed working boat, perspective. The RYA exam is not designed for that.

 

I have been on many types of narrowboats over the years and in many different waters. I have not yet found a boat that is correctly set up that doesnt respond to working the tiller, this helps "push" the boat round. If you just waggle the tiller at a constant speed nothing will result, you have to push hard and let it slowly return, all working boatmen used this method, particulary on a butty or horse boat. Some modern narrowboats have appalling rudder / prop set ups, ie a prop set above the centre of the rudder or too far away will not respond correctly, some modern boatbuilders often overlook what is happening below the water line, ie short swims, flight plate not large enough etc, these faults will lessen any effect.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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Paddling? Nobodys mentioned cavitation and blade grip yet or the fact that a boat turns better one way than the other depending on the hand of the blade and the balance of the rudder or stemming up or that even out of gear yer shaft is more than likely still turning and that you can use this to your advantage or that at times old boats seem to have a will of their own. Never mind yer fancy fluidic dynamics it's about steering by the seat of your pants, if it works for you, do it ( that's the steering by way not the pants). Well there's enough stuff there to keep this thread going until the New Year. Debate on peeps. :lol: :lol:

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Results of experiment: to be treated with caution as they only cover the following

 

NB Ripple, ex-clifton cruiser 62 feet long

 

"pumping" the tiller had no effect whatsoever under these conditions, nor did it have any when holding for bridges. Ripple stays put pretty well anyway, but minor adjustments were best achieved with holding the tiller at a good angle and briefly engaging gear (a second or so, at low revs). pumping the tiller with no revs at all just produced a clang as the rudder hit the end stop. :lol:

 

When manoeuvres were needed more quickly and the turn is tight (for the finger pontoons at Gloucester) "pumping" appeared to have a marginal effect so long as revs were high, but I couldn't test for time, waterspace taken or forward distance travelled. "pumping" got the boat moving slightly faster (you could sense a "rotational pulse") but ceased to have any effect afterwards.

 

I think the answer to this is the type of boat. Your boat is shallow draft, small rudder and probably not the longest of swims.

 

With a larger rudder, more draft and with better swims pumping does work from experience of trying different ways.

 

Certainly hard over is not the best way to turn a boat but we are talking about techniques that do work, there are a number of us that have the time to find these things out. However every boat handles differently that is part of the fun of taking a boat out. Just throw a gusty wind in and a strong tide and everything changes.

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I think the answer to this is the type of boat. Your boat is shallow draft, small rudder and probably not the longest of swims.

 

With a larger rudder, more draft and with better swims pumping does work from experience of trying different ways.

 

Certainly hard over is not the best way to turn a boat but we are talking about techniques that do work, there are a number of us that have the time to find these things out. However every boat handles differently that is part of the fun of taking a boat out. Just throw a gusty wind in and a strong tide and everything changes.

 

Thanks Peter for summarising what I was trying to get across. I'm not sure about Lawrence's statement about properly set up, which I find slightly reminiscent of people complaining that power steering in cars "shouldn't be necessary". My boat works very well for novices on holiday and was never intended to carry 30 tonnes of coal!

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The thing to do is watch the wash as it comes off the rudder. Often when you turn the rudder, it splits the wash and you get nearly as much coming out one way as the other. By gently waggling the rudder whilst watching the wash, you should eventually notice all the wash coming out one way. There is some well-documented physical effect going on here in fluidics, where a fluid flow will tend to attach itself to a surface. When it does attach, with all the flow coming out one side, (experience will tell you what optimum angle to hold the rudder at - it will vary from boat to boat) you will find the boat will practically turn in its own length. Guaranteed to make any onlookers believe you are using a bow-thruster.

 

I won't do that then. I would hate it if someone thought I had a bow thruster.

 

(Ducks and covers head to avoid half bricks)

 

Nick

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I won't do that then. I would hate it if someone thought I had a bow thruster.

 

(Ducks and covers head to avoid half bricks)

 

Nick

Well, you would have to emit a high pitched whine at the same time...

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I think the rudder fell off, Phylis' boat, at the design stage.

 

I don't think pumping her outdrive (ooer!) would have much effect.

 

Missed this one. But as said above i dont have a rudder and pumping my outdrive wont have any effect so no need to add my two-penneth.

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Talking with boating friends who go back a while, all agree that "pumping the tiller" is an incorrect description. "Working the tiller" seems to be the correct one.

 

Agreed, I think working the tiller is a much better term but it does not create so much interest :lol:

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Talking with boating friends who go back a while, all agree that "pumping the tiller" is an incorrect description. "Working the tiller" seems to be the correct one.

 

Thats a better way of putting it!

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Certainly on our boat the underwater profile of the turning place especially the depth of water can vary the amount you need to work the tiller. In some the boat turns in its own length, in others you (as opposed to the engine) have to work. On some it is easier to use a short pole on the bank at the back and a longer one at the front and mostly pole round.

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Talking with boating friends who go back a while, all agree that "pumping the tiller" is an incorrect description. "Working the tiller" seems to be the correct one.

I seem to recall it also being described as "Rowing" - I suppose because it superficially looks like you are sculling?

 

Howard

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Talking with boating friends who go back a while, all agree that "pumping the tiller" is an incorrect description. "Working the tiller" seems to be the correct one.

What with my eyesight I had to read the "working" bit twice then. At first glance it looked like another word :lol:

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What with my eyesight I had to read the "working" bit twice then. At first glance it looked like another word :lol:

 

Your eyesight seems to be deteriorating. What's causing that?

 

Richard

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What with my eyesight I had to read the "working" bit twice then. At first glance it looked like another word :lol:

I was once agent in a local election, and the candidate had decided what he really needed on his leaflet was a friendly handwritten message: 'Ten minutes of your time on polling day, four years of hard work from me' or something like that. Sadly his handwriting was such that all his Os looked like As and his Rs like Ns. He lost by two votes.

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  • 1 month later...
Around 1990 regulations changed, requiring a test to be taken to drive even the empty coach. Anyone driving under the regs current at the time had 6 months in which to claim the new category under grandfathers rights. No test whatsoever was needed, just a statement from the transport manager that you were driving thus.

And they have changed again as I know to my cost. The exemption from holding a PCV licence is now restricted to driving vehicles more than 30 years old and with less than 8 people on board. If the vehicle is less than 30 years old or with more than 8 people, PCV licence is necessary. I've just passed mine to be able to take my 60 year old ex LT RT type :lol: on running days etc. :lol:

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