It all seemed so simple

[Athy]

Do you think the boat builders I mentioned in my original post are likely to suffer going bankrupt?

 

Is it people like me, getting spooked potentially, that is dictating that the prophesy is fulfilled?

 

Also I have noticed that a lot of second hand boats seem to have been on the market for a long time. One we looked at over a year ago is still for sale. There must be some bargains to be had. What would be a reasonable offer against the advertised price on second hand market?

 

Bricksh

 

PS How do you do the Quote box thing?

 

As an example, a boat which was advertised for sale by a chap in our village at £23,950 a few months ago has just been sold for £18,000. He's a retired and poorly chap with not much pension and he needed the money. So, either someone got a nice bargain or they exploited an unfortunate person, depending on your point of view. If you can live with your conscience afterwards you can get considerable reductions if the circumstances are right..

[Colin Smith]

Hi Colin, We thought the same but still got caught out!

 

Severn Valley Boat Centre had been in business and run by the same person for over 30 years.

They always had 3 to 4 boats in build at a time, and when we placed our order, the lead time was for over a year.

All good signs so we thought for a healthy business.

 

We spoke to SVBC customers, both past and present, for feedback. Apart from just one instance, the feedbak was positive.....Some of whom were having their second SVBC boat built which seemed another good sign.

 

According to an industry website, they were also members of the organisation, which gave a certain level of reassurance...........or again, so we thought, but unfortunately SVBC had ceased to be members, but the organisations website did not insure that SVBC were removed from the member listing.....Result was that each time I checked before handing over another stage payment, I was getting false reassurances. I contacted the organisation but they did not want to know!

 

I have admitted we were foolish...........After being 'harassed' by the director of SVBC for over a month, we were stupid enough to hand over a large sum (£26,400) for a stage payment, even though the agreed completed stage of build had not been met.

 

BIG mistake.......we lost every penny of that as the company went into administration just days after our cheque had been cashed. We have not been able to get a cent back as creditors.

 

The painful thing was that we then had the nightmare and extra cost of getting Marmaduke completed.....and believe me it was a nightmare!

 

If we had our time again, it would be second hand, second hand, second hand. As others have said, new only if the boat was completed and ready to go.

 

I wish you and every other new build customer well.......No one should have to go through the terrible experiance we did.

 

Regards,

Pav.

 

Hi Pav,

 

Having just read your post, that is a terrible situation and as someone who was taken for a ride several years ago to the tune of £30k (not boat related) I know how it feels - though I guess my situation wasn't as bad. I feel for you and I've realised just how fortunate I was in my choice of builder.

 

I do understand how difficult it can be. There are builders (as per your initial experience) who look stable and have a history. One thing I found was that many builders are either traders or partnerships. This can make it difficult to get a genuine picture of their finances. I'd advise anyone looking to ask for the last 3 years of accounts - full accounts and not just a balance sheet. It's easier with a Limited company because they're a public document. The accounts won't tell you the full story but there are usually a few pointers to the real liabilities that a company (or trader) has and more importantly, when those liabilities are due. I've spent many of my working years looking at companies in detail so I've learned what to look for but a decent accountant wouldn't cost a lot to provide an opinion.

 

One thing is certain (not just from your experience) 'membership' of a trade organisation means nothing and as far as I can see and the BMF-style contacts aren't worth anything. If I was going to buy a boat now, I'd still go with a new build but I'd probably be even more diligent. I'd certainly get my own contracts drawn up, have staged payments and set a schedule where the payments were made when the stages were completed, and in exchanged for a certificate of ownership.

 

In my case my builder was part of a larger organisation. That organisation is involved in the insurance industry so there was lots of financial information available and any irregularity would have had very serious consequences for them. The payment schedule I agreed was a deposit followed by payments after the stages were completed and a large chunk on delivery. It all went like clock-work. Maybe I was lucky.

 

Not something I looked into at the time but I wonder if there is any insurance available to underwrite the deal and/or if there are any type of Escrow arangements available to ensure the correct transfer of title in return for a stage payment?

 

Regards,

 

Colin

[Colin Smith]

Sadly there are few people out there who can answer that question.

 

No doubt you will argue that their very extensive research much have been flawed, but I don't think there's any way of knowing with total confidence that nothing will go wrong, (in a staged payment situation).

 

Hi Alan,

 

I can't comment on other peoples research but agree with you that it's impossible to know absolutely that nothing will go wrong. However, as with any major transaction, the risk can only be properly estimated with the right information. It's then up to the individual to decide what level of risk they're happy to accept. I think this applies to buying new or second-hand.

 

With regard to staged payments then I don't see a problem provided that you have title/certificate of ownership in return. This is reasonably easy to set up if you think about the major stages - steel purchase, hull constructed, engine/box in, timber purchased, electrical installation etc. I would advise anyone though, to get their own contract drawn up, make regular visits to check on the progress and get your own surveyor involved to confirm that the terms have been met for each stage, finished to an acceptable standard.

 

Colin

[long john]

Hello to you all. We are new to the forum.

 

We are a couple who are looking to buy a narrowboat to live on. Selling up etc etc. At the weekend we went to Crick 09 and thought we had it nailed down to a new boat from either, Braidbar, Fernwood or Reading marine.

 

Now looking through this excellent site , I have disovered many opinions favouring many and varied builders, Ian Kemp, Brinklow,etc.

My next stage is to complete a short list of builders and visit them over the next few weeks to secure a slot. So my question is who should I shortlist and who is the best. My main concern is quality not price.

 

Thanks

 

Bricksh

HELLO MATE , MY ADVICE IS DON'T BUY A NEW BOAT, SEARCH LIKE A SHEPHERD TILL YOU FIND ONE YOU LIKE AND HADDLE LIKE A JEW. YOU CAN UPGRADE ALL YOU WANT ONCE YOU FIND THE STYLE YOU LIKE, AND BOATFITTERS ARE LIKE "COWBOYS WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS" EXCEPT THE WEAPONS YOUR HARD EARNED CASH. AT LEAST IF YOU BUY A 2ND USER BOAT ITS YOURS WHEN YOU SPEND YOUR CASH. BAD CLIMATE FOR NEW BOATS UNLESS YOU WANT A LIVERPOOL/ AMBER BOATS LOAD O CRAP! LOL, JUST AN OPINION

[NiceNarrowboat]

Hi Pav, Hi Colin.

 

Like you Pav, I've survived the nightmare of losing nearly 40K of my hard earned to a bad boatbuilder, who on initial selection (in greener days) we valued for their creativity. Not having a crystal ball, nor ESP, I could not have known just how bad he proved to be.

 

Having said that, I've now got a gorgeous narrowboat which I had completed by another boatbuilder. Whilst I agree with you that no one should ever go through this particular nightmare, and I would like to see the law tightened up considerably to save anyone else the heartbreak, we do differ in that I would still buy new again.

 

The rotten experience did teach me many things - firstly pay through credit cards for extra insurance, and legal assistance, should it all go wrong. Had I done that, I could have saved a huge amount of stress taking the initial boatbuilder to court - they would have done it for me. Secondly, get your boatbuild insured - I did second time round even though it was not necessary - I still don't think it was a waste of money.

 

Secondly, once I'd put the rotten experience behind me, I thoroughly enjoyed the process of designing, anticipating and sourcing ideas for the boat. Key to this was having a boatbuilder who got/still gets as excited about ideas; comes up with something unique, and something that suits me. One of my reasons for selecting the rogue boatbuilder (and indeed the second boatbuilder) was that he was one of the few who wasn't telling me how my boat was going to be- as so many do/did at the time. Unfortunately for me, I made a mistake in believing him to be competent. Thankfully, he didn't put me off sufficiently to put my trust in another boatbuilder and get exactly what I wanted - and more.

 

My bad experience made me more determined to get what I wanted, even having to fork out more than I'd anticipated (and at times could afford!) but I strongly feel my boat was worth it - and having that history makes my boat that little bit more special to my mind. I've made some good friends through the experience (and received a lot of invaluable support), and whilst on occasions the rough times got the better of me, I had some good laughs a long the way (and still do).

 

On this forum I was described as 'another disapointed (sic) customer' - not any more. It's only when I hear of similar stories, like yours Pav, that I recall the shock and anger of what happened to me, and fully sympathise with anyone faced with same situation and will willingly offer whatever advice I can from my lessons learnt. But by far the thing that stands out for me is the fact that when I go 'home', I get onto my boat and get to live the dream.

 

Penny.

 

 

 

 

Hi Colin, We thought the same but still got caught out!

 

Severn Valley Boat Centre had been in business and run by the same person for over 30 years.

They always had 3 to 4 boats in build at a time, and when we placed our order, the lead time was for over a year.

All good signs so we thought for a healthy business.

 

We spoke to SVBC customers, both past and present, for feedback. Apart from just one instance, the feedbak was positive.....Some of whom were having their second SVBC boat built which seemed another good sign.

 

According to an industry website, they were also members of the organisation, which gave a certain level of reassurance...........or again, so we thought, but unfortunately SVBC had ceased to be members, but the organisations website did not insure that SVBC were removed from the member listing.....Result was that each time I checked before handing over another stage payment, I was getting false reassurances. I contacted the organisation but they did not want to know!

 

I have admitted we were foolish...........After being 'harassed' by the director of SVBC for over a month, we were stupid enough to hand over a large sum (£26,400) for a stage payment, even though the agreed completed stage of build had not been met.

 

BIG mistake.......we lost every penny of that as the company went into administration just days after our cheque had been cashed. We have not been able to get a cent back as creditors.

 

The painful thing was that we then had the nightmare and extra cost of getting Marmaduke completed.....and believe me it was a nightmare!

 

If we had our time again, it would be second hand, second hand, second hand. As others have said, new only if the boat was completed and ready to go.

 

I wish you and every other new build customer well.......No one should have to go through the terrible experiance we did.

 

Regards,

Pav.

[Bobbybass]

Hello to you all. We are new to the forum.

 

We are a couple who are looking to buy a narrowboat to live on. Selling up etc etc. At the weekend we went to Crick 09 and thought we had it nailed down to a new boat from either, Braidbar, Fernwood or Reading marine.

 

Now looking through this excellent site , I have disovered many opinions favouring many and varied builders, Ian Kemp, Brinklow,etc.

My next stage is to complete a short list of builders and visit them over the next few weeks to secure a slot. So my question is who should I shortlist and who is the best. My main concern is quality not price.

 

Thanks

 

Bricksh

 

These are only our experiences and thoughts that may give you some ideas.

We sold our house and could have had any boat built or secondhand.

In the end we went secondhand...12 years old... and don't regret it.

We 'did' Crick last year...and it is tempting.. those light interiors and chrome/ glass etc.

Our boat is on a Reeves hull and has a nice 1.5 inches of spray foam. It has good quality 18mm tongue and groove boarding over that and the upshot is that it keeps really snug in winter and there is zero condensation...according to our surveyor...a real plus over some hardboard lined.

 

One or two things didn't fit with us..interior wise...but boats are all built of simple hardboard/ MDF etc...and things are easily changed.

A downside of our boat is that exterior wise it looks lovely..having had the full £6k paint job....and sporting a satellite dome.

Because of that it attracts attention and has had an attempted breaking because of it.

Some local 'lads' told me they spotted it as soon as we came along...they said ' if it looks like a nice boat...it must have nice things in it'.

My wife and I agree that a less shiny nice boat would have better...more peace of mind when leaving it on a quiet tow path.

 

We now consider the boat to be primarily a 'life support' system and the aesthetics are secondary.

Its OK being surrounded by panelling and top of the range hardwood floor but if ...at the end of the day....you sit and relax and your feet are cold...or you want a nice shower and it all looks modern and 'chromey' but the shower jet doesn't have any 'oomph'..then its no fun.

 

I guess with a new boat there are thoughts of reliabilty , but we met people on a shared boat who were considering re-engining after the boat was only 2 years old and also some poor devils hand pulling a boat through Hillmorten locks...only 1 year old and the engine siezed.

 

Overall we are pleased we didn't waste money in those early stages, because we didn't understand the importance of some things. We would have had something glitzy...with no sensible storage...no where to hang several levels of wet coats where the drops wouldn't distort the wood floor..and not enough mooring pins and chains.

 

These are only our experiences...not the law..and I hope they are of interest.

 

Bob

[nb Innisfree]

When commisioning a new narrowboat you are taking a gamble, that's the bottom line, and the golden rule with gambling is never to risk more money than you can afford to lose!

[Bricksh]

Not something I looked into at the time but I wonder if there is any insurance available to underwrite the deal and/or if there are any type of Escrow arangements available to ensure the correct transfer of title in return for a stage payment?

 

Does anyone know if these deals can be underwritten? It does seem to be a very risky business

[NiceNarrowboat]

If I remember rightly, I used Mardon Marine to insure the build. I know not many do, but they did.

[chieftiff]

Do you think the boat builders I mentioned in my original post are likely to suffer going bankrupt?

 

Is it people like me, getting spooked potentially, that is dictating that the prophesy is fulfilled?

 

I have things made for a living, sometimes it's a physical thing, sometimes it's an intellectual thing and sometimes it's in between (software! what a nightmare)

 

The rules within my company are pretty similar to any other, If I'm going to spend more than £25k on a project then the contractors have to go through our full financial health check, if they don't want to go through the healthcheck then they obviously don't want the work. If it's less than £25k I may still make them go through the healthcheck if my spidy senses tingle about any aspect of their business - it's a risk limitation exercise.

 

Ask for the last 3 years accounts, a letter from their bank manager stating that they are not in any financial difficulty, confirmation from 2 or 3 creditors (normally suppliers) that they are paying their bills and have no outstanding debt other than their normal agreement, at least two character references and two product references from recent customers. Now this might sound like a pain but it is really very simple and takes only a few days. If they won't provide those minimum references (or at least the significant bulk of them) then walk away.

 

Even when they do provide those guarantees you need to minimise risk, that means you pay the absolute minimum up front..... ideally nothing until you are satisfied with the product. In the real world with small business' this is almost always impossible, agree a deposit and then pay the rest upon satisfactory receipt of goods or the bulk on delivery and say 20% after an agreed period during which time satisfaction can be assured. There is a standard boatbuilders agreement that I've had several boatbuilders bring up when I've discussed payment terms, I can't say that I'm entirely content with it as there may be significant periods of time (and money) when actual ownership will be difficult to establish for items fitted or work carried out on your property - if you've ever dealt with a receiver you will know what I mean. It's not a bad agreement but by no means reduces risk to the absolute minimum. If you absolutely can't risk the money, and if I'm honest this is the only way I would do it, pay a deposit - 10%-15% seems reasonable, 70% on receipt of the boat when you take ownership (and the builder transfers ownership to you!) and the balance after one month only when any problems have been addressed. Draw it up in a milestone agreement as part of a contract, spend time writing the contract to specify exactly what you want and expect and when ownership will be established (I appreciate that most people will have difficulty at this stage as they have no idea what constitutes a contract - a visit to a lawyer at this stage is probably worthwhile and for a few hundred quid it may save you a fortune, all of my work contracts are reviewed by a barrister who specialises in contract law and it generally takes less than an hour of his time)

 

You are going to get a few nodding heads from "experts" and boatbuilders alike but at the end of the day you are the customer, it's your money.... do not under any circumstances allow the contractor to dictate the terms of your agreement unless you are happy with those terms and understand the risks associated, both parties sign a contract; it is a legal agreement not the builders terms of payment.

 

Someone further up the thread also mentioned paying by credit card, what a brilliant idea if you have the credit limit, why risk your own money when you can risk somebody else's. If a stage payment system is agreed in whatever form use the credit card to make the payment and then transfer the cash to the card company before the interest period, under UK law credit cards offer added protection in the event of no, or even unsatisfactory goods.

 

Job done, a reasonably low risk way of purchasing a boat. Some might say what a pain in the arse but if you were buying a house at similar cost you wouldn't just wave your checkbook and pay for it like it was a TV...... would you?

[Bricksh]

If I remember rightly, I used Mardon Marine to insure the build. I know not many do, but they did.

 

Can you remember how much this insurance costs. I presume %age of price?

 

Bricksh

[NiceNarrowboat]

Can you remember how much this insurance costs. I presume %age of price?

 

Bricksh

 

Grief, now you've got me - off the top of my head, if I remember rightly, it was several hundred pounds (I only remember money precisely in thousands where the boat is concerned!!). I haven't got the documentation with me to be more exact. Will have to get back to you on that. However, when signing a contract for a fully bespoke (as opposed to the advertiser's interpretation of bespoke), I'd advise it strongly just because of the amount that's likely to be involved, and the weakness of the law. For example, some of my losses were because the initial boatbuilder failed to protect my property and adequately insure it, contrary to the contract, e.g. a bath, and an engine no less) which would also have been covered...

 

You live and learn! You also forget....some things! I'll remember to get back to you on your question.

Edited June 16, 2009 by NiceNarrowboat

[Bricksh]

Grief, now you've got me - off the top of my head, if I remember rightly, it was several hundred pounds (I only remember money precisely in thousands where the boat is concerned!!). I haven't got the documentation with me to be more exact. Will have to get back to you on that. However, when signing a contract for a fully bespoke (as opposed to the advertiser's interpretation of bespoke), I'd advise it strongly just because of the amount that's likely to be involved, and the weakness of the law. For example, some of my losses were because the initial boatbuilder failed to protect my property and adequately insure it, contrary to the contract, e.g. a bath, and an engine no less) which would also have been covered...

 

You live and learn! You also forget....some things! I'll remember to get back to you on your question.

It woud seem nothing is risk free. I have phoned round and yes some will insure build based on damage etc but non due to criminal activity or administration (in some cases I'm beginning to believe this is one in the same)

 

The hunt will continue. Next weekend we will visit the first of our new build possibles. I've made notes of the questions and advice offered and thanks very much for these as I would not have considered some. I also hope to visit first broker to eye up 2nd hand market.

 

The excitement is mounting

or should that be mounting is excitement

 

Either way I feel I'm up and running, much better informed and raring to go.

 

Thanks

 

Bricksh

[Bricksh]

Thanks for everyones advice. We have been to our first new build yard and were very impressed with the set up, definately a possibility. However we have also been lookin second hand and have found a distinct possible. We will put in an offer tomorrow, so fingers crossed we may be on the water much sooner than anticipated.

[bottle]

Subject to survey.

 

Good luck.

[Bricksh]

Offer Accepted

Hope the survey goes OK, I certainly want to be there for it.

I searched for surveyors and spotted a few favourable comments for George Gibson and Richard Burchell but this was from 2007. Would anyone have an opinion on them?

[Dominic M]

Offer Accepted

Hope the survey goes OK, I certainly want to be there for it.

I searched for surveyors and spotted a few favourable comments for George Gibson and Richard Burchell but this was from 2007. Would anyone have an opinion on them?

I believe George Gibson has retired. I have never been involved in a boat sale where Richard Burchell was the surveyor, but isn't he also based at Honey Street as GG was?

[Robin2]

I understand the desire to buy new, or to buy now, and how frustrating it can be if someone claims to know better.

 

One thing I have not seen mentioned in this series of posts or in the normal magazine boat reviews is the question of storage space. Most of the new boats that are reviewed have little or no built in storage apart from the kitchen, under the bed, and maybe a small wardrobe. For living aboard a whole lot more storage is required. On the one hand it eats up living space, and the storage that is most space efficient often is very inconvenient - such as under seats, or under beds.

 

I would be very surprised if anyone could specify his/her storage requirements on a new build boat without having lived on a boat previously, as opposed to hiring for a holiday.

 

If you are still contemplating a new-build I would recommend the series of articles in Waterways World starting last October called The Sailaway Diaries. It gives a good overview of the sort of decisions that have to be made - most of which are not specific to "build-it-yourself".

[Athy]

I understand the desire to buy new, or to buy now, and how frustrating it can be if someone claims to know better.

 

One thing I have not seen mentioned in this series of posts or in the normal magazine boat reviews is the question of storage space. Most of the new boats that are reviewed have little or no built in storage apart from the kitchen, under the bed, and maybe a small wardrobe. For living aboard a whole lot more storage is required. On the one hand it eats up living space, and the storage that is most space efficient often is very inconvenient - such as under seats, or under beds.

 

I would be very surprised if anyone could specify his/her storage requirements on a new build boat without having lived on a boat previously, as opposed to hiring for a holiday.

 

If you are still contemplating a new-build I would recommend the series of articles in Waterways World starting last October called The Sailaway Diaries. It gives a good overview of the sort of decisions that have to be made - most of which are not specific to "build-it-yourself".

It amazes me when I see reviews of new boats in CB and WW and the saloon contains only free-standing furniture. Where do they put everything? All our boats (one bought second-hand, the other two built for us) have had bench seats with storage under - effectively two 4' by 2' by 2' cupboards which eat up clutter. I would never buy a boat which did not offer such storage space.

[Nightwatch]

Regarding George Gibson.

 

He has carried out two surveys on our behalf. The first he advised to us walk away from before it was lifted out, we did, and the second on a boat we bought, out first purchase. He was semi-retired at that time and I would not be at all suprised if he has hung up his probe for good. What a gentleman he is. IIRC, the late great Virginnia Currer suggested him,not absolutely sure though

 

Richard I know nowt about. Sorry,not very helpful but just adding my bit.