Fitout "good ideas"

[Allthatjaz]

On 16/09/2018 at 21:42, WotEver said:

Not all of it. The ring main isn’t for starters. 

 

Not at all. Why do you think this?

 

Quite besides the fact that it’s an 11 year old post that you’re commenting on. 

Are we not supposed to reply to old threads? This thread was on the front page so not sure why its still here if its a zombie thread!

 

UK law has a lot to say about domestic electrics. From wire sizes to circuit breaker types, to notification for building control. All of this has been progressed over a number of years to derive a set of regulations that all new builds have to comply with. These recommendations and standards haven't been developed to make hard work for people but to make safe and reliable systems. As we know, building control doesn't apply to the construction of boats and only for that reason it is legal for someone... for example, to wire up there own kitchen (galley) on a boat.  A new boat being fitted out by an untrained electrician could potentially be a death trap. Electricians train for three years for good reason.

[WotEver]

Any electrician who understands the subject would know that...

 

Ring main circuits are not necessarily a good idea in and of themselves. They have their place. A narrowboat is not one of them. 

 

99% of the calculations required for a house design are irrelevant to a boat which usually has a 16A maximum feed (often much less) with the biggest loads being a washing machine and a 1kW immersion heater. All of the spurs on a narrowboat are adequately served with 2.5mm² cable. 

 

Any marine electrician would also know that none of the cable types used in land based buildings are suitable for boats. He would also know that many of the 18th edition requirements are not only irrelevant to boats but would make for a poor and/or dangerous installation. 

 

Some of the worst examples of boat wiring have been carried out by land based electricians who know nothing about boats. 

 

If you know know what you are doing it is perfectly possible to wire a boat safely and tidily. If you don’t know what you are doing then seek advice from someone who does. Whatever you do don’t ask a non-marine electrician who won’t know the first thing about the subject. 

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Allthatjaz said:

As we know, building control doesn't apply to the construction of boats

No it doesn't but there are regulations that new boat build must comply with - there is European legislation called the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) which must be complied with and examined by approved inspectors. Narrowboats have an exemption which allows the owner to build and self-certify that it complies.

 

The regulations are :

ISO 10133 Wiring in Small Boats

ISO 13297  AC Electrical Systems for Small boats

 

Should you decide to read them you will see that they have little resemblance to 'Brick & Mortar' Housing requirements.

[Robbo]

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

Ring main circuits are not necessarily a good idea in and of themselves. They have their place. A narrowboat is not one of them

The place been after the war when their was a coppper shortage?  

[Phil Ambrose]

Ref Zombie threads.

It's often better to start a new thread than to dig up an old thread to post on.

Saves the reader wading through pages of old and possibly irrelevant stuff.

I started reading from the beginning thinking "this seems familiar and then came to a old dead friend of mine which confirmed it was a very old thread.......the date does not stand out too well.

Phil 

[Allthatjaz]

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

Any electrician who understands the subject would know that...

 

Ring main circuits are not necessarily a good idea in and of themselves. They have their place. A narrowboat is not one of them. 

 

99% of the calculations required for a house design are irrelevant to a boat which usually has a 16A maximum feed (often much less) with the biggest loads being a washing machine and a 1kW immersion heater. All of the spurs on a narrowboat are adequately served with 2.5mm² cable. 

 

Any marine electrician would also know that none of the cable types used in land based buildings are suitable for boats. He would also know that many of the 18th edition requirements are not only irrelevant to boats but would make for a poor and/or dangerous installation. 

 

Some of the worst examples of boat wiring have been carried out by land based electricians who know nothing about boats. 

 

If you know know what you are doing it is perfectly possible to wire a boat safely and tidily. If you don’t know what you are doing then seek advice from someone who does. Whatever you do don’t ask a non-marine electrician who won’t know the first thing about the subject. 

We did use a marine electrician. As for me, I don't have a clue about electrics. All I know is, they are dangerous if fitted incorrectly. 

[Boater Sam]

Only ever install a thermostatic shower.

Fit a thermostatic blending valve to the hot water supplies throughout the boat set to 65 degrees and another for the washing machine (assuming it is cold fill only ) set at 40 degrees.

Saves the element coming on at the start. Kinder to the inverter and batteries.

Sam.

[cuthound]

58 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Only ever install a thermostatic shower.

Fit a thermostatic blending valve to the hot water supplies throughout the boat set to 65 degrees and another for the washing machine (assuming it is cold fill only ) set at 40 degrees.

Saves the element coming on at the start. Kinder to the inverter and batteries.

Sam.

 

Or fit a thermostatic mixer valve to the hot water output of the calorifier to achieve temperature control of all hot water outlets (unless you also have a Morco type instant water heater as well).

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Fit a thermostatic blending valve to the hot water supplies throughout the boat set to 65 degrees

 

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Or fit a thermostatic mixer valve to the hot water output of the calorifier to achieve temperature control of all hot water outlets

Ain’t the above both the same?

[Sea Dog]

5 hours ago, Allthatjaz said:

As for me, I don't have a clue about electrics. All I know is, they are dangerous if fitted incorrectly. 

It's not actually that simple.  An electric chair can be especially fatal if it isn't fitted incorrectly. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

It's not actually that simple.  An electric chair can be especially fatal if it isn't fitted incorrectly. 

 

I disagree, it could be completely safe if installed incorrectly and fatal if done correctly

[frahkn]

42 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I disagree, it could be completely safe if installed incorrectly and fatal if done correctly

 

See - that's why your english teacher said to avoid double negatives, they cause confusion at a quick scan.

[Sea Dog]

7 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

See - that's why your english teacher said to avoid double negatives, they cause confusion at a quick scan.

I know - I was trying to mimic closely the bit I quoted, so it wasn't meant to be Queen's English. Obviously it didn't really work for DC, who agrees despite disagreeing! 

[Jennifer McM]

Even a professional can get electrics wrong. Two years ago we had 3 solar panels fitted by a yard that's got a good reputation, and the job looked to be a good'un. Just after the Beast from the East visited us last March, our 4 leisure batteries were in their death throes. An independent boat electrician (he was recommended) arrived to fit 4 new batteries, but before he started disconnecting the old batteries, he pointed out a wiring problem; the solars were only charging 3 batteries.  Moral of the story; anyone can have a bad day... 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Even a professional can get electrics wrong. Two years ago we had 3 solar panels fitted by a yard that's got a good reputation, and the job looked to be a good'un. Just after the Beast from the East visited us last March, our 4 leisure batteries were in their death throes. An independent boat electrician (he was recommended) arrived to fit 4 new batteries, but before he started disconnecting the old batteries, he pointed out a wiring problem; the solars were only charging 3 batteries.  Moral of the story; anyone can have a bad day... 

Our Solar only charges the leisure bank - if I want to top up the starter batteries I just put a jump lead across.

[Jennifer McM]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Our Solar only charges the leisure bank - if I want to top up the starter batteries I just put a jump lead across.

No, our solar doesn't charge our starter battery either.

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Our Solar only charges the leisure bank - if I want to top up the starter batteries I just put a jump lead across.

 

5 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

No, our solar doesn't charge our starter battery either.

If you two had a VSR fitted then it would do both. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

No, our solar doesn't charge our starter battery either.

I'm a little puzzled (interested) - How was the domestic bank wired ? How could the solar only charge 3 of the batteries in the bank and not the fourth ?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

 

If you two had a VSR fitted then it would do both. 

I don't normally need to, but due to family 'problems' we have had very little use of the cruiser for the last couple of years, so when she has been left for long periods I just put jump leads across to the TWO starter batteries (2 engines - separate batteries) to keep up with any self discharge.

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm a little puzzled (interested) - How was the domestic bank wired ? How could the solar only charge 3 of the batteries in the bank and not the fourth ?

Agreed. There’s more to that story. 

[Jennifer McM]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Agreed. There’s more to that story. 

I've asked 'him indoors' [she ducks] in my 'better half's words'..... 

 

The positive and neg take off from the battery bank, should be at the extreme ends of the bank. In our case to positive take off was connected to the third battery in the bank. In the opinion of the electrician, this reduced the charge to the fourth battery.  Since the connection was modified, the leisure battery bank has charged much quicker, and appears to deliver the full potential.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Since the connection was modified, the leisure battery bank has charged much quicker, and appears to deliver the full potential.

I would suggest that that is most likely to be as a result of new batteries - I am not convinced the theory on using 'opposite corners' makes a noticeable difference.

[Robbo]

10 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

I've asked 'him indoors' [she ducks] in my 'better half's words'..... 

 

The positive and neg take off from the battery bank, should be at the extreme ends of the bank. In our case to positive take off was connected to the third battery in the bank. In the opinion of the electrician, this reduced the charge to the fourth battery.  Since the connection was modified, the leisure battery bank has charged much quicker, and appears to deliver the full potential.

 

Whilst not ideal it’s was no real big deal and would have balanced it self anyhow.  With four batteries most setups are not wired to be perfectly balanced, so your two middle batteries won’t be utilitiesed as much as the end batteries, again no big deal (but better than the pervious setup) especially if the wiring is of decent size.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Robbo

[Jennifer McM]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that that is most likely to be as a result of new batteries - I am not convinced the theory on using 'opposite corners' makes a noticeable difference.

It would appear that since the installation of the 4 leisure batteries, our Victron software monitor showed a jump of approx 10% increase of charge rate from our solars. 

[Robbo]

Just now, Jennifer McM said:

It would appear that since the installation of the 4 leisure batteries, our Victron software monitor showed a jump of approx 10% increase of charge rate from our solars. 

New batteries and  increased capacity so can take more amps.  Also different types of batteries can take amps better than others.   Cheap and nasty leisure’s can take and give amps more than expensive Trojans and the like.