The boaters Lock Mate

[howardang]

There is a vast difference with a fly by wire system incorparating gps, electronic engines etc etc, than trying to remote control a boat. In my day job (RNLI lifeboat design engineer) we have worked with various all singing all dancing control systems. Our newest class has a computer system that ties together all the nav, engines, bilge system etc etc. so you can operate all of the kit from any of the 8 positions) but always to be used with someone on the vessel, as are the north sea rig boats. this is because when something goes wrong (which at some point it will) someone is there to hit the oh s$%t levers to avoid a catastropy.

 

We had problems with the MF radios interfering (i know you would not get mf of a narrowboat, unless your lost and end up in the middle of the atlantic . ) but when the radios were used with the boat along side running it would suddenly dump on about half revs on both engines and knock into gear (both gear select and engines are electronic). that was just a little un nerving when theres 2500hp in the engine room.

 

So think of this senario, you are lone moving your boat down through some lock by remote (no one on board) and a random radio signal interferes with your controls cutting the control of your vessel, (now any good system would fail safe to idle out of gear) but the momentum your vessel it is carrying is now uncontrolled and say 12 tonne ish of steel can do some serious damage. and if you were to injure someone you would be leaving yourself wide open for all sorts of health and safety and liability problems. (unmanned machinery etc etc)

 

There were some comments earlier about palfinger hiabs etc, yes these have remote control and do fail safe stop if signal is lost, but if all goes wrong someone can still hit the stop on the kit. unless you are going to get wet your cant get to an un manned boat in the middle of the cut to do that.

 

Rant over.

I agree. In your scenario, imagine the boat is just leaving the lock into a pound with boats queing when the remote steerer drops the controller into the cut. With fail safe it would fail to idle but may do damage or cause injury. If there is no fail safe .......where does the boat end up and after what mayhem?

 

Howard

[Radiomariner]

More than 30 years ago there were proposals for fleets of merchant ships to cross the Pacific Ocean by remote/radio control. The vessels were to travel in convoy with one manned ship in control. The control ship would have a large maintenance crew and helicopters to transfer from vessel to vessel. It later became clear that there would still have to be a small crew on each vessel to cope with the "ultimate" emergency. As different scenario's were envisaged the necessary manpower and their skills escalated. As modern very large oil tankers these days have a crew of as little as twelve. The idea bacame non viable and disappeared from the scene

[Radiomariner]

Somehow I managed to submit my last post before I had finished writing it.

The point is that with the vessel under way there should be somebody on board to take control in the event of failure.

 

However, If remote engine/steering control is used in conjunction with ropes to the bank/lock it might be acceptable. A method of securing the ropes rapidly in case of failure is a must (Bollards, you can not hold back any narrow boat easily with the engine in gear)

There is still an advantage, in that you do not need to pull on the ropes so much.

[Robbie w]

I know how I would do it (Having done all but the RC link in the past) but how is it actually done with this product?

 

Are we talking using RC model kit which would work within reason or a serious scenario with fail safes and encryption etc?

Sorry its too technical for me, I just want to stand at the Lock gates, press the gismo and hope that the widget enables the doobry to propel the boat into the lock and out again without me having to do a bl.... thing thanks

 

Sorry I think we have lost the plot here, we are talking a narrow boat entering a lock and leaving a lock under remote control, not crossing the atlantic, or mooring up against oil rigs in a gale!! Thanks for all the help I have had on here, but I now have the answer compliments of Natalie. Could I interst you in a new debate. I lost my password into this website today, and it is literally easier to contact 10 Downing Street by email than it is to talk to you lot! much as I like to: Debate That!!

[RLWP]

Perhaps they should do it with their hire fleet ? Two steerers each with only half a clue working together might, just might, equate to one fully clued steerer.

 

 

Are you sure?

 

Richard

[magpie patrick]

Sorry its too technical for me, I just want to stand at the Lock gates, press the gismo and hope that the widget enables the doobry to propel the boat into the lock and out again without me having to do a bl.... thing thanks

 

Sorry I think we have lost the plot here, we are talking a narrow boat entering a lock and leaving a lock under remote control, not crossing the atlantic, or mooring up against oil rigs in a gale!!

 

I don't think we've lost the plot, it's just too easy to see a slow gentle operation and forget that 20 odd tonnes of steel is involved. Having been at the controls of a hire boat when the gear cable snapped as I put full revs on to get out of a lock it is all to easy for a situation to get out of control and having no one on the boat exacerbates it. I was able to kill the engine, jump off with a rope and shout at others to get out of the way. If no one had been on board the boat would just have gone flat out until it hit something, the most benign possibility being the far bank where no one could get at it, the worst being a small fibreglass cruiser...

 

 

Thanks for all the help I have had on here, but I now have the answer compliments of Natalie. Could I interst you in a new debate. I lost my password into this website today, and it is literally easier to contact 10 Downing Street by email than it is to talk to you lot! much as I like to: Debate That!!

 

Some might say our debates are more useful than those at 10 downing street

[RLWP]

Some might say our debates are more useful than those at 10 downing street

 

Some might also say that it is the debates at 10 Downing St that is causing all the trouble - The country is run by a Kitchen Cabinet rather than by debate in the Houses of Parliament!!

 

Richard

[Radiomariner]

I don't think we've lost the plot, it's just too easy to see a slow gentle operation and forget that 20 odd tonnes of steel is involved. Having been at the controls of a hire boat when the gear cable snapped as I put full revs on to get out of a lock it is all to easy for a situation to get out of control and having no one on the boat exacerbates it. I was able to kill the engine, jump off with a rope and shout at others to get out of the way. If no one had been on board the boat would just have gone flat out until it hit something, the most benign possibility being the far bank where no one could get at it, the worst being a small fibreglass cruiser

 

Exactly.

My point on the convoys crossing the Pacific (Would not dream of it in the Atlantic) was that in principle that was a far simpler and safer operation than manoeuvering into a lock, and even then it bacame clear that a man on board became necessary at all times. Keep to the ropes.

[blueprince]

Exactly.

My point on the convoys crossing the Pacific (Would not dream of it in the Atlantic) was that in principle that was a far simpler and safer operation than manoeuvering into a lock, and even then it bacame clear that a man on board became necessary at all times. Keep to the ropes.

 

Would say that it was far more complicated to cross Pacific than enter a lock. It's a matter of the number of variables in the environment and how you approach the problem.

 

I think an autonomous boat, in a carefully limited role, could be made to enter a lock and hold position while the lock was operated. There would have to be a "tell me thrice" radio controlled off switch as a safety measure, but on board sensors could handle the rest, and the boat would be under observation at all times, even if you didn't have the same level of steering control. The only problem I see is expense, to make a reliable and truly safe system, you would have to incorporate a fairly comprehensive suite of safeguards.

 

The irritating thing is, to get this to work, you would have to also install a radio control system, as a safety measure for the autonomous system.

 

I'm planning to continuous cruise on my own in a while, so I might have a crack at this, but I can just see myself spending more time fiddling around than actually going anywhere, probably better just to leave it till winter and find myself a nice varied set of locks close together to practice on.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions for a group of locks which would have the maximum variety in the shortest distance, which you can winter at, not run out of water and not bother too many people by repeatedly running up and down the bank screaming? Soft banks would be nice too, I wonder if fitting airbags to hulls has occurred to anybody?

 

Ah, thats how late it is, bloody hell THATS how late it is!

 

Theres a fine line between genius and idiocy, and i believe I'm pogo-ing on the wrong side, time for bed.

[RLWP]

So, working single handed with your lockmate you have set up a lock and are guiding your 20 ton boat in at a steady 1mph. The battery in your remote goes flat.

 

What failure state should your boat system take? Stay as it is/ throttle to neutral/ go to full reverse?

 

Richard

[blueprince]

So, working single handed with your lockmate you have set up a lock and are guiding your 20 ton boat in at a steady 1mph. The battery in your remote goes flat.

 

What failure state should your boat system take? Stay as it is/ throttle to neutral/ go to full reverse?

 

Richard

 

Panic? One of those pre-recorded voices? "Dee Dee Dee, vehicle about to crush you..."

 

Realistically you'd have to have a positive "always on" system, which in the absence of instructions would revert to neutral, or a bank following system, which I advocate. I would also plan to be on my boat as it left the lock. I don't think it's a real possibility, but it is interesting.

[RLWP]

...Realistically you'd have to have a positive "always on" system, which in the absence of instructions would revert to neutral...

 

That's the most obvious one of course. Boat enters lock at 1mph, remote control fails, gearbox goes to neutral and 20 ton boat hits lock gate.

 

I can't think of a safe "fail-safe" mode for this system. Neutral is no good, keep the same throttle setting means you hit the gate harder, reverse means you lose the boat in the pound behind. Applying full rudder either way to put the boat to a bank could work but which way would it steer?

 

Richard

[tony collins]

 

Are you sure?

 

Richard

 

Perhaps they made the mistake of dialling in the EXACT waypoint into the GPS!

 

Tony.

[Yoda]

I am sorry to write that you lot have lost the plot.

 

It is lock gates that we should automate or control by radio link. Boats are simple to control and if you are using digital encoding there would not be a problem. The lock gates can easily be controlled by calling them up and will give you first choice if there has not been a call from another vessel first.

 

When using computer control over radio, all commands need to be packeted ie in time domain. That way a signal cannot be acted upon if it is corrupted. This would also require FM or full digital transmission so the the strongest signal wins.

 

Simple.

[blueprince]

I am sorry to write that you lot have lost the plot.

 

It is lock gates that we should automate or control by radio link. Boats are simple to control and if you are using digital encoding there would not be a problem. The lock gates can easily be controlled by calling them up and will give you first choice if there has not been a call from another vessel first.

 

When using computer control over radio, all commands need to be packeted ie in time domain. That way a signal cannot be acted upon if it is corrupted. This would also require FM or full digital transmission so the the strongest signal wins.

 

Simple.

 

I will get my autonomous boat working, cooking tea and providing sexual favors before BW automate every lock! It's the difference between improbable and impossible.

[blueprince]

I am sorry to write that you lot have lost the plot.

 

It is lock gates that we should automate or control by radio link. Boats are simple to control and if you are using digital encoding there would not be a problem. The lock gates can easily be controlled by calling them up and will give you first choice if there has not been a call from another vessel first.

 

When using computer control over radio, all commands need to be packeted ie in time domain. That way a signal cannot be acted upon if it is corrupted. This would also require FM or full digital transmission so the the strongest signal wins.

 

Simple.

Actually, eating own words, having had a night to think on it, I like this idea too. You could use the pressure differential at the lock to power the opening/closing and electrical components of the system, there's plenty of energy in a 50 tons of water. I'd use something like an induction system to operate the locks, it's very close range, but thats all you need, and it would stop idiots messing with them. Bw could also issue electronic "keys" with licenses, to prevent unlicensed use.

 

I'd use an electrical system to initiate a valve setup, then a turbine to run off the water flowing into/out of the lock, which would power an air compressor to open/close the lock gates on pneumatic rams. You could also recover the small amount of electricity used, a self powering system. I've used a combination of systems to keep costs/maintenance down, might as well try and be realistic.

 

You could use an all electric system, but then there would be batteries, stealable and expensive, hydraulics could be used, but there's no power storage, and you're back to batteries or a compressed air reservoir. I'm sure there are better ways of doing this, but at a first approximation, it would cost several thousand to equip one lock in such a way, though you could standardise the components and fit any lock the same way, it's still expensive.

 

The problem is, aside from convenience, there's very little reason to install such a system,and locks are part of the pleasure, at least to me, you meet people, have a bit of a chat, and pass on info about conditions, pubs, cafes, shops, idiots, all sorts. Sometimes even neat ideas are useless.

[Sid8]

Hi friends

While I understand the concept of a remotely controlled boat, how is the boat moored while you're fiddling about with the lock? I would also like to point out that interference might be quite amusing, and other evil buggers are even now looking on ebay for cheap remote controllers to 'hi-jack' your boat.

 

Regards

Sid

Edited September 18, 2012 by Theo
Remove commercial link

[Steveio]

Hi, here is my experience of trying to get the Boaters Lock Mate fitted by Mick Thompson.

I rang him early March 2019 from the River Stort, as I was attending my Fathers funeral in Bishop's Stortford, he told me to bring my boat up to the Stourbridge Lock flight to have it fitted,

So I set off on my 60ft Narrowboat single handed, it was a challenging journey in severe winds and I had to replace a prop shaft bearing on the way. But after 201 miles and 224 Locks I finally arrived one week before Easter.

Mick came to my Boat with the 'lockmate', it looked like a sturdy bit of kit and he said he just needed to fit the electric motor, which would take 2 weeks and then added that it would cost £2,500. After 2 weeks he said it would be another 2 weeks as he was having problems trying to get some red wire? this went on for 6 weeks, I rang him for 4 days before he answered and I said he needed to communicate with me to let me know what was going on, he agreed, but he never did have the decency to ring me. 

I kept ringing once a week with no answer and waited around the area until early August with no communication from him, some of the good friends I made in Stourbridge who knew him would ask him why he hadn't fitted it, he would always say "I'm having trouble with the wiring" shrug his shoulders and walk off, bearing in mind he has built and sold around 30 of the Boaters Lockmates.

This was all nearly 6months ago and still no Lockmate and no communication from him, so to say I'm disappointed is an understatement, the fact that I travelled so far I really don't think his man has a conscience, he owes me for a lot of waisted time and diesel.

 

 

[zenataomm]

Interesting tale and must be frustrating for you.

However probably a good outcome. 

I wouldn't consider spending that much money on a device not approved by Waterways ( in fact the last I heard they condemned the idea), that has the potential to cause a spectacular accident, probably invalidates your insurance and nullifies your safety certificate.

[Arthur Marshall]

I looked at this when the publicity started as I do virtually all my boating singlehanding. For what it is, two and a half grand seemed a ridiculous amount just to save climbing up a ladder, and also too much for what looked like a model car control box and a small motor. If he really has sold thirty of these over the past few years I would be intrigued to hear if anyone is still using them, or if anyone on here has ever met anyone with one apart from the inventor. 

[Steveio]

I agree £2.500 was way more than I expected, in fact I thought it was £1500 which is still a lot, I had come into some money at the time and it was an expensive gadget treat.

I know someone who has had the BL fitted for 5years and it still works ok, but he told me when it was first fitted it lost signal and hit the gates, he then 'collaborated' it and its worked fine ever since.

At the age of sixty I am still more than capable of getting through locks on my own and quite enjoy the exercise, but in 10years time my belly may not fit between the boat and the lock wall, as I rarely walk on my roof.

The BL only controls the gears not the throttle, my idea at the time was to step off the stern as I was going into a lock (going up) and using it to stop the boat before it hit the gates, to save me having to climb up the green slimy ladder while carrying a windlass and for taking the boat out of a lock while its at the bottom on tickover.

I understand there maybe some negativity about this gadget and the safety concerns, I get that, but I think that all boaters should at some point experience taking a boat through locks completely solo to fully understand what is involved. Many boaters already have the Lockmate its called 'the wife' lol.

Anyway it seemed like a good idea at the time and you don't miss what you never had, I now have no regrets as I learned so much about the 'Black Country' and the good friends I made while being there, apart from Mr Thompson that is.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Steveio

[Bobbybass]

 

[Arthur Marshall]

If I had had the money, I might well have had it installed. It was really the cost that put me off. Otherwise, it seemed like. A good idea - the boat would only come out of the lock at a crawl, much as it does now when I heave it out with a rope. I'm sorry you had such a bad time with it - and hope you hadn't paid for it in advance! 

[Steveio]

5 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If I had had the money, I might well have had it installed. It was really the cost that put me off. Otherwise, it seemed like. A good idea - the boat would only come out of the lock at a crawl, much as it does now when I heave it out with a rope. I'm sorry you had such a bad time with it - and hope you hadn't paid for it in advance! 

Hi Arthur, No I didn't pay any money for it up front, if I had I'd still be in the area with CRT on my back.  I am still thinking about attempting to build my own remote, I considered an 'Actuator' which screws it forward and back, but it would be too slow by the time it got into reverse I would have hit the gates.

It needs something attached to the gear stick that responds quickly, like a small piston, also I would need to be able to immediately detach it from the lever as soon as I jumped back on the boat. I think it can be done without spending too much money, but how is the question. 

[PeterF]

The Hybrid marine system (standard engine with parallel electric motor) has a remote control option for engaging the electric motor in forward or reverse. I believe it inputs directly into the motor controller which avoids the need for mechanical control of the throttle lever. The downside is the £15k or so extra cost for a hybrid.