Would Modifying My Anchor Be A BAD Idea, Please ?

[alan_fincher]

OK, a complete numpty question about anchors, about which I know very little.

 

Chalice is a 50 foot narrowboat, and the pictured anchor was a hurried purchase before venturing on rivers last summer. It's a 15KG specimen, and I believe the type is a "Danforth".

 

 

The trouble is that it's big enough to cause a real problem with stowage, and however it is placed in the front well, bits stick up and get in the way of things.

 

I have seen other anchors of a similar type where that round bar that runs across the bottom seems to be shorter, and as a result the two parts that project ouside each side are shorter.

 

If I could lose say 2" from each of those projections, (so make the bar 4" shorter), I could then arrange to store the anchor in a way where nobody will maim themselves on it.

 

I assume the bar helps it to stay pointed the right way when it's deployed, but I'm guessing.

 

So what do people think ? If I get the hacksaw out, will I dramatically reduce the potential effectiveness of this anchor, or is it more likely that it will make very minimal difference, please ?

[mrsmelly]

OK, a complete numpty question about anchors, about which I know very little.

 

Chalice is a 50 foot narrowboat, and the pictured anchor was a hurried purchase before venturing on rivers last summer. It's a 15KG specimen, and I believe the type is a "Danforth".

 

 

The trouble is that it's big enough to cause a real problem with stowage, and however it is placed in the front well, bits stick up and get in the way of things.

 

I have seen other anchors of a similar type where that round bar that runs across the bottom seems to be shorter, and as a result the two parts that project ouside each side are shorter.

 

If I could lose say 2" from each of those projections, (so make the bar 4" shorter), I could then arrange to store the anchor in a way where nobody will maim themselves on it.

 

I assume the bar helps it to stay pointed the right way when it's deployed, but I'm guessing.

 

So what do people think ? If I get the hacksaw out, will I dramatically reduce the potential effectiveness of this anchor, or is it more likely that it will make very minimal difference, please ?

 

Hi

 

It certainly is a Danforth, the flat pointy bits r called flukes and they hinge over and grab the bottom when being dragged. A good way to keep it readily accesible is to make urself a wooden board, u can paint it and make it pretty if u want, make it slightly larger than the anchor and mount it on the roof at the front. Put the anchor on it u can lock it on when on canals to deter thieving scum if u wish. When on rivers attach your cable, if the u no what hits the fan slide it off the board strait into the river, job done.

[Neil TNC]

OK, a complete numpty question about anchors, about which I know very little.

 

Chalice is a 50 foot narrowboat, and the pictured anchor was a hurried purchase before venturing on rivers last summer. It's a 15KG specimen, and I believe the type is a "Danforth".

 

 

The trouble is that it's big enough to cause a real problem with stowage, and however it is placed in the front well, bits stick up and get in the way of things.

 

I have seen other anchors of a similar type where that round bar that runs across the bottom seems to be shorter, and as a result the two parts that project ouside each side are shorter.

 

If I could lose say 2" from each of those projections, (so make the bar 4" shorter), I could then arrange to store the anchor in a way where nobody will maim themselves on it.

 

I assume the bar helps it to stay pointed the right way when it's deployed, but I'm guessing.

 

So what do people think ? If I get the hacksaw out, will I dramatically reduce the potential effectiveness of this anchor, or is it more likely that it will make very minimal difference, please ?

 

 

Earnest's still works

I only had to cut 2cm off each end of the rod, to get it to fit diagonally in one of Earnest's front side lockers. That way I can keep it permanantly connected.

[Radiomariner]

I have seen the shank shortened for stowage by sawing off a section; Rejoin the cut off section to the shank by drilling holes through both twice and securing with pins. One pin permamently secured allows the shank to fold on itself and the other to be inserted to lock the shank before use.

Caution: Make the holes and pins too large and you weaken the shank, make them too small and they can be too weak and sheer under load.

 

Edited for typo

Edited March 28, 2009 by Radiomariner

[David Schweizer]

As I understand it, the round steel bar extensions are to help prevent the anchor from turning, and to hold it in a horizontal plane when dragging along the river bed. I assume that the anchor manufacturers have researched the optimum length for this to be achieved, and therfore it is reasonable to assume that shortening them will reduce this design feature. By how much, or if at all is anyiones guess, although the manufactuers should klnow if they have actually conducted any research.

[Radiomariner]

As I understand it, the round steel bar extensions are to help prevent the anchor from turning, and to hold it in a horizontal plane when dragging along the river bed. I assume that the anchor manufacturers have researched the optimum length for this to be achieved, and therfore it is reasonable to assume that shortening them will reduce this design feature. By how much, or if at all is anyiones guess, although the manufactuers should klnow if they have actually conducted any research.

Inclined to agree. However if not being able to stow an anchor prevents you from carrying one, I would think that carrying one that has a 1 or 2% chance of not working first time is better than non. Remember the most important part of the anchor is the cable (Chain) that holds the shank parallel to the river bed

[David Schweizer]

Inclined to agree. However if not being able to stow an anchor prevents you from carrying one, I would think that carrying one that has a 1 or 2% chance of not working first time is better than non. Remember the most important part of the anchor is the cable (Chain) that holds the shank parallel to the river bed

I agree. Fortunately(when not in use) my anchor will stow in the rear counter locker, and easily fits through the weed hatch access door. It will also easily stow in the bow locker, but as I also keep gas in there, I prefer not to use that space for big heavy things that could damage pipes etc., or cause any sparks.

Edited March 28, 2009 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

As I understand it, the round steel bar extensions are to help prevent the anchor from turning, and to hold it in a horizontal plane when dragging along the river bed. I assume that the anchor manufacturers have researched the optimum length for this to be achieved, and therfore it is reasonable to assume that shortening them will reduce this design feature. By how much, or if at all is anyiones guess, although the manufactuers should klnow if they have actually conducted any research.

I think I agree with your analysis, David.

 

In an ideal world I'd leave it unmodified, but reducing it a bit would make it much easier to live with.

 

The reason I'm doubtful it's any kind of exact science, is that I'm fairly certain I've seen ones on sale that are not so well endowed in those parts.

 

Example here.....

 

 

I think I'll look if our chandlery have anything similar before I wield the hacksaw.

 

The other obvious point is that it is heavily galvanised, so is likely to rust at the two sawn ends if I do massacre it.

Edited March 28, 2009 by alan_fincher

[nb Innisfree]

I think I agree with your analysis, David.

 

In an ideal world I'd leave it unmodified, but reducing it a bit would make it much easier to live with.

 

The reason I'm doubtful it's any kind of exact science, is that I'm fairly certain I've seen ones on sale that are not so well endowed in those parts.

 

I think I'll look if our chandlery have anything similar before I wield the hacksaw.

 

The other obvious point is that it is heavily galvanised, so is likely to rust at the two sawn ends if I do massacre it.

I blacked mine, looks quite smart

[GUMPY]

Do what I do with mine:

Both live in the garage except on trips where I will need them.

Doesnt get in the way, cant trip over it............

Having looked at your blog you could put it standing up where the bike is in the Nth Circ pic against the front of the well deck on those trips where you need it.

[Clodi]

By chance I purchased a pack of  tennis balls in Poundland for the Dog. When I got around to looking at them I found they were a solid rubber type construction. I've drilled holes halfway through in 2 of them and they fit over the bars snugly which helps protect both shins and the deck.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Clodi said:

By chance I purchased a pack of  tennis balls in Poundland for the Dog. When I got around to looking at them I found they were a solid rubber type construction. I've drilled holes halfway through in 2 of them and they fit over the bars snugly which helps protect both shins and the deck.

 

The chances of you ever deploying the anchor are vanishingly small. Especially on a canal!

[howardang]

On 28/03/2009 at 16:49, alan_fincher said:

I think I agree with your analysis, David.

 

In an ideal world I'd leave it unmodified, but reducing it a bit would make it much easier to live with.

 

The reason I'm doubtful it's any kind of exact science, is that I'm fairly certain I've seen ones on sale that are not so well endowed in those parts.

 

Example here.....

 

 

I think I'll look if our chandlery have anything similar before I wield the hacksaw.

 

The other obvious point is that it is heavily galvanised, so is likely to rust at the two sawn ends if I do massacre it.

The round bar is called a stabilising bar and as others have said it is there to prevent the anchor from rotating on the seabed and therefore not setting properly. Cutting of some of this bar is not necessarily a good idea because a shorter length bar defeats the purpose it was put there in the first place. It may mean the difference between setting first time and taking several attempts to set. Not an issue if in an open water situation but if using the anchor to prevent drifting into danger then that is another story. However, it's your call but for your own safety think long and hard before tampering with an anchor as suggested, unless you are confident that you know what you are doing.

 

Howard

[Detling]

This is called a Breton anchor common in Brittany  and as you see no bar at the bottom. I have used one of these and a Danforth of similar weight (5 kg) on an 21 foot yacht, both worked well on a sand/mud bed and I honestly don't think there was any difference for that bottom. A rocky bed may be different but you won't find that on a canal or a river, unless tidal.  The bar bits sticking out on a Danforth can cause the anchor to foul it's chain/rope if everything is just flung overboard, as could happen if not properly deployed (lowered and chain and rope payed out as boat drifts back).

Edited September 25, 2018 by Detling
punctuation

[Tony Brooks]

I have cut mine a little and fitted some heater hose over the cut ends. I know I have compromised the anchor's ability to lay flat while settling BUT as in my view if I ever have to deploy in anger it would most likely simply act as a mud weight I feel the risk of a disaster is very small, certainly smaller than carrying no anchor.

 

Note whenever anchors comes up we get talk from obviously experienced salty water types talking about sea beds and things rather than river beds etc.

[alan_fincher]

38 minutes ago, howardang said:

The round bar is called a stabilising bar and as others have said it is there to prevent the anchor from rotating on the seabed and therefore not setting properly. Cutting of some of this bar is not necessarily a good idea because a shorter length bar defeats the purpose it was put there in the first place. It may mean the difference between setting first time and taking several attempts to set. Not an issue if in an open water situation but if using the anchor to prevent drifting into danger then that is another story. However, it's your call but for your own safety think long and hard before tampering with an anchor as suggested, unless you are confident that you know what you are doing.

 

Howard

 

Yes, that's which I asked the question, but as it was nearly ten years ago, things have moved on a bit since.  Unfortunately it has now been a very long while since there has been any point in me carrying an anchor.  We did load one on recently, ostensibly to do the Thames ring, but that plan ended when we found Napton lock 9 had shrunk sufficiently that we can't pass through it.  I think an angle grinder or Kango hammer might be a more useful bit of kit for us at the moment than an an anchor!

Edited September 25, 2018 by alan_fincher

[howardang]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have cut mine a little and fitted some heater hose over the cut ends. I know I have compromised the anchor's ability to lay flat while settling BUT as in my view if I ever have to deploy in anger it would most likely simply act as a mud weight I feel the risk of a disaster is very small, certainly smaller than carrying no anchor.

 

Note whenever anchors comes up we get talk from obviously experienced salty water types talking about sea beds and things rather than river beds etc.

Not quite sure about the last point you made. Speaking purely for myself of course, if by salty water types you mean me, yes that may be true but don't necessarily assume that my modest experience is restricted to either salty or rivers. The interests are not mutually exclusive, and I hope that most people reading posts from "salty" types will make allowances for our occasional lapses of language, but I think the meaning is usually clear and most people will get the gist. If you or anyone else needs clarification please ask and I will be only too pleased to translate. 

 

Howard

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, howardang said:

Not quite sure about the last point you made. Speaking purely for myself of course, if by salty water types you mean me, yes that may be true but don't necessarily assume that my modest experience is restricted to either salty or rivers. The interests are not mutually exclusive, and I hope that most people reading posts from "salty" types will make allowances for our occasional lapses of language, but I think the meaning is usually clear and most people will get the gist. If you or anyone else needs clarification please ask and I will be only too pleased to translate. 

 

Howard

No criticism was intended save that anchoring at sea in a craft that may well have considerable windage in the case of a yacht, be subject to very strong tidal races, and be required to grip an almost infinite variety of bottoms is, in my view, not directly comparable to anchoring on a river, even one in flood. Even if an anchor did not  hold it should slow the boat enough to allow one to ferry-glide to  a bank and in any case one should be tied up in real flood conditions.

 

My Danforth anchor is heavier than the mud weights we had on ex Broads boats and they held 35 to 45 ft wide beams without any problem, even when there flow was higher than "normal summer flow" so  I am sure my Danforth & chain will do the same or better, even if it does not dig in. Actually over much of the Thames I think it will foul on sunken branches and in a very few places simply bounce ore a scoured rocky bottom.

[howardang]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

No criticism was intended save that anchoring at sea in a craft that may well have considerable windage in the case of a yacht, be subject to very strong tidal races, and be required to grip an almost infinite variety of bottoms is, in my view, not directly comparable to anchoring on a river, even one in flood. Even if an anchor did not  hold it should slow the boat enough to allow one to ferry-glide to  a bank and in any case one should be tied up in real flood conditions.

 

My Danforth anchor is heavier than the mud weights we had on ex Broads boats and they held 35 to 45 ft wide beams without any problem, even when there flow was higher than "normal summer flow" so  I am sure my Danforth & chain will do the same or better, even if it does not dig in. Actually over much of the Thames I think it will foul on sunken branches and in a very few places simply bounce ore a scoured rocky bottom.

You have every right to comment of course, and I have always respected your views, but I was trying to suggest - not very well, obviously - that I wasn't speaking as a yachtie.  I have sailed for quite a few years, on and off, but I also have a professional marine background, including a lot of anchoring experience. However, I have also been boating on the inland waterways for 30 plus years and on this forum I mostly try to relate any comments I may make to the canal/river perspective. I apologise if I occasionaly slip into using alien nautical jargon, but I hope most people on here will forgive me.?

 

Returning to the original question, I actually agree about your comment about using your Danforth to ferry glide, very much depending on the specific situation, of course, and whether a boater can control the anchor properly instead of just hoiking it over the side and hoping! However, if it is wiser to anchor properly and quickly for safety, I would prefer my anchor not to tumble because of a shortened stabiliser bar.

 

Howard

Edited September 25, 2018 by howardang

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, howardang said:

You have every right to comment of course, and I have always respected your views, but I was trying to suggest - not very well, obviously - that I wasn't speaking as a yachtie.  I have sailed for quite a few years, on and off, but I also have a professional marine background, including a lot of anchoring experience. However, I have also been boating on the inland waterways for 30 plus years and on this forum I mostly try to relate any comments I may make to the canal/river perspective. I apologise if I occasionaly slip into using alien nautical jargon, but I hope most people on here will forgive me.?

 

Returning to the original question, I actually agree about your comment about using your Danforth to ferry glide, very much depending on the specific situation, of course, and whether a boater can control the anchor properly instead of just hoiking it over the side and hoping! However, if it is wiser to anchor properly and quickly for safety, I would prefer my anchor not to tumble because of a shortened stabiliser bar.

 

Howard

My comment as not about nautical jargon. It was about how the "norms" for sea anchoring get trotted out in response to inland anchoring questions. If I had the chain and anchor size I would need for sea use I would be barley be able to lift the anchor and certainly not recover it. I know the Thames bottom varies from mud, to gravel, to smooth rock all with out without entangled fallen branches and weed so in theory I would either need an expensive anchor or several that I could not deploy until I had established the type of bottom. I do not question the need for much greater care in ensuring a sea boat's anchor and tackle is fit for use in extreme conditions but I do question it when specific "patent" anchors are recommended and certain lengths of rode. That brings us back to the depth of water and inland boat may anchor in. Again on the Thames this may vary from 3 feet or so to a very deep hole but the holes are of comparatively small size and are often in weir streams below the weir where only an idiot would venture with any significant flow. Actually its easy to run aground in weir streams because of the holes and banks - all uncharted. I think too much is made of anchoring specifics for inland boats as long as the anchor is as heave as you can lift and control, you have several meters of chain and the many more meters of rope. In truth I think an old fashioned metal milk crate would do for much of the time.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think too much is made of anchoring specifics for inland boats as long as the anchor is as heave as you can lift and control, you have several meters of chain and the many more meters of rope. In truth I think an old fashioned metal milk crate would do for much of the time.

I would respectfully suggest that the above statement is woefully inadequate, and potentially dangerous - you are making an assumption that all Rivers are the same as 'your bit of the Thames'.

I am currently on the Trent and it is not in Flood, is not even flowing much above 'normal' and yet there is a 3 Knot (3.3mph) flow.

I very much doubt that an old milk-crate on a bit of rope would have any chance of holding back a 15 tonne + narrowboat. The kinetic energy is huge, which is why it is not unknown for the T-Stud to be torn off when an anchor 'bites' and 'snatches' the boat.

[howardang]

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

My comment as not about nautical jargon. It was about how the "norms" for sea anchoring get trotted out in response to inland anchoring questions. If I had the chain and anchor size I would need for sea use I would be barley be able to lift the anchor and certainly not recover it. I know the Thames bottom varies from mud, to gravel, to smooth rock all with out without entangled fallen branches and weed so in theory I would either need an expensive anchor or several that I could not deploy until I had established the type of bottom. I do not question the need for much greater care in ensuring a sea boat's anchor and tackle is fit for use in extreme conditions but I do question it when specific "patent" anchors are recommended and certain lengths of rode. That brings us back to the depth of water and inland boat may anchor in. Again on the Thames this may vary from 3 feet or so to a very deep hole but the holes are of comparatively small size and are often in weir streams below the weir where only an idiot would venture with any significant flow. Actually its easy to run aground in weir streams because of the holes and banks - all uncharted. I think too much is made of anchoring specifics for inland boats as long as the anchor is as heave as you can lift and control, you have several meters of chain and the many more meters of rope. In truth I think an old fashioned metal milk crate would do for much of the time.

 

Sorry, Tony , but I fundamentally disagree with much of what you say. Why do you target your advice purely at Thames users?River beds can vary greatly and to suggest that an old milk crate may suffice "for much of the time" is bordering on irresponsible. I have tried to tell you that I am not speaking about "salty water" anchoring. I am speaking about good anchoring practice wherever you are - offshore or inland -  and the principles don't change. However, you don't seem willing to accept that I may have a different opinion to you so I guess we'll just have to differ.

 

Howard

[JamesFrance]

Anchors are only really tested when anchoring in deep water, which will never be the case on rivers.   I doubt whether shortening the bar would be any problem for inland use where the bottom would usually be mud anyway.   The danforth anchors I have used have only failed to hold when very heavy weed roots have jammed the anchor flat so the flukes have been unable to dig in again after dragging a little.

[Sea Dog]

23 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

Anchors are only really tested when anchoring in deep water, which will never be the case on rivers.

I think you're missing the point James. A Narrowboat anchor is never going to be used for that purpose - it's an emergency brake likely (if ever) to be most appreciated when dropped in an uncontrolled manner from a boat with no steerage whilst travelling at 5 knots towards a wier! I think that's quite a test for any anchor.

[PaulJ]

3 hours ago, JamesFrance said:

 The danforth anchors I have used have only failed to hold when very heavy weed roots have jammed the anchor flat so the flukes have been unable to dig in again after dragging a little.

Thats an interesting point and the opposite to what I would assume-I always imagined dropping an anchor into a weed bed would make it work better! I have never personally had the need to drop an anchor but its useful to read comments from those that actually have.