Dunton Windlasses

[dave moore]

Hi all

I recently lost a Dunton double windlass that I'd like to replace. SWMBO likes them for their light weight. I recall buying one from the shop at Braunston, wondered if anyone knows of other sources, especially midlands based. Alternatively, if anyone has one for sale, let me know.

Cheers

Dave

[alan_fincher]

How do these work, please Dave ?

 

I've seen (poor) pictures of them, and they seem to only have one socket, but claimed to do two spindle sizes.

 

I can see how you could have a large socket present, and still pass a small spindle through it into a small socket.

 

But I can't see how you could use the large socket safely, if it has a small one beyond, stopping a big spindle going right through.

 

Have I misunderstood completely ?

[johnjo]

Hi all

I recently lost a Dunton double windlass that I'd like to replace. SWMBO likes them for their light weight. I recall buying one from the shop at Braunston, wondered if anyone knows of other sources, especially midlands based. Alternatively, if anyone has one for sale, let me know.

Cheers

Dave

 

Try here Dave.

 

http://www.boatshopbraunston.co.uk/dunton_windlass.htm

 

Regards

John

 

Edited to add.

On a previous thread someone suggested putting a couple of jubilee clips on, so if dropped in the canal you can use a magnet to recover it.

Edited March 23, 2009 by johnjo

[Tiny]

Having gone through loads of windlasses the wife (and lock doer) prefers a Rochdale (also called Northern) one which weighs a half hundredweight. I have a long throw lightweight aluminium for my odd windings.

[Chris-B]

Uxbridge Boat Centre Dave

01895 252019

 

( Closed on Mondays)

[dave moore]

How do these work, please Dave ?

 

I've seen (poor) pictures of them, and they seem to only have one socket, but claimed to do two spindle sizes.

 

I can see how you could have a large socket present, and still pass a small spindle through it into a small socket.

 

But I can't see how you could use the large socket safely, if it has a small one beyond, stopping a big spindle going right through.

 

Have I misunderstood completely ?

 

Hi Alan

The inside of the socket, or eye, is stepped.at the narrow end. Small spindles slide on with the spindle protruding thro the socket, while larger spindles stop at the step. I've never had one slip, tho' I must admit that I seldom use them myself. Hope this makes sense!

Dave

[alan_fincher]

Hi Alan

The inside of the socket, or eye, is stepped.at the narrow end. Small spindles slide on with the spindle protruding thro the socket, while larger spindles stop at the step. I've never had one slip, tho' I must admit that I seldom use them myself. Hope this makes sense!

Dave

Many thanks,

 

I guess they are relying on the fact that nowadays virtually all "large" size are untapered, like those 1930s types on the Grand Union Birmingham main line.

 

In olden days when "large" often came tapered, (like the old standard on the Southern GU), I can't see this approach could have been made to work.

 

I like the idea of only one 'eye', giving a more traditional shape, and something that will go in a belt without leaving a large indent in your back.

 

We need a windlass to replace the one that OH "donated" to one of the Nash locks, so I'll look for them when we are up in Braunston.

 

I'd not heard of them until today, so your post was helpful to me too.

[Speedwheel]

I didn't think you could by them anymore. A couple of years ago I had some specially cast.

 

Seems they are still doing them. I shall go a purchase one as I threw mine in at Meaford.

[ditchcrawler]

Many thanks,

 

I guess they are relying on the fact that nowadays virtually all "large" size are untapered, like those 1930s types on the Grand Union Birmingham main line.

 

In olden days when "large" often came tapered, (like the old standard on the Southern GU), I can't see this approach could have been made to work.

 

I like the idea of only one 'eye', giving a more traditional shape, and something that will go in a belt without leaving a large indent in your back.

 

We need a windlass to replace the one that OH "donated" to one of the Nash locks, so I'll look for them when we are up in Braunston.

 

I'd not heard of them until today, so your post was helpful to me too.

If you join the BCNS when you receive the latest copy of their members magazine Boundary Post you will find an article written by the chap that invented it.

[dave moore]

Hi all

Thanks for the responses so far. I rather thought that Braunston or Uxbridge might be the only options, was hoping for somethig closer to home.

I am a member of BCNS and was interested to read of the origins of the Dunton...for my money, as a grumpy old traditionalist sod, they are the best modern windlass by a long way, tho' I still prefer my pair from the old days. To me they "heft right" in a way that no modern windlass does.

Thaks again

Dave

[Chris-B]

Dave

are you at the port for Easter ?

If so I can boat one up

Chris

[Chertsey]

Aha! The very question I was going to ask and I found it here via Google. I borrowed one of these while out on Tarporley last week and just loved it immediately. On the Regents Canal locks at least it seemed a lot more secure on the tapered spindle. So I decided that I want one for my birthday (which is this week; I lied about it in my profile to foil identity thieves) and am seeking a supplier hopefully on this summer's planned route. (Cowroast to Up North via Leicester). Whilton would be the obvious place - but it appears they don't stock them? Clearly should have got one while in Braunston, but I didn't know I wanted one then. I believe the Braunston shop do mail order, but I would have to hurry to get it before we leave. Any more ideas or known stockists out there?

[pete harrison]

Many thanks,

 

I guess they are relying on the fact that nowadays virtually all "large" size are untapered, like those 1930s types on the Grand Union Birmingham main line.

 

In olden days when "large" often came tapered, (like the old standard on the Southern GU), I can't see this approach could have been made to work.

 

I like the idea of only one 'eye', giving a more traditional shape, and something that will go in a belt without leaving a large indent in your back.

 

We need a windlass to replace the one that OH "donated" to one of the Nash locks, so I'll look for them when we are up in Braunston.

 

I'd not heard of them until today, so your post was helpful to me too.

 

I have sworn by my "Dunton Double" for several years now, but it is not well suited to the new style Grand Union square section spindles (Knowle to Wigrams / Calcutt). Having been around for far too many years I acquired a chrome plated windlass from Warwickshire Fly Boat Company in the early 1980's, a windlass that has also served me well, is single eyed and made to fit the new style Grand Union square section spindles. I seem to have the best of both worlds although it must be said that neither of these windlass's are particularly strong, and the Dunton is rather prone to getting chunks taken out of it due it being a soft alloy.

 

Nice to know you can still buy a Dunton though ! Dunton's used to do a long throw single eyed windlass as well in order to give increased leverage against stiff paddles.

[Hairy-Neil]

! Dunton's used to do a long throw single eyed windlass as well in order to give increased leverage against stiff paddles.

 

Useful at Tardebigge..... for my next trip.

[Chertsey]

Yes, I believe they still do a long and a short one - which presents me with a dilemma. Obviously I could do with the extra leverage, being a bit of a weed, but a short, 'square' one is so much nicer to carry. We have acquired from somewhere a couple of long steel ones and OH is going to weld a new 'hole' in the middle of one of them to make it dual length, but they weigh a ton.

I'd use an ordinary one on non-tapered spindles.

[alan_fincher]

I have sworn by my "Dunton Double" for several years now, but it is not well suited to the new style Grand Union square section spindles (Knowle to Wigrams / Calcutt).

 

I'm confused now!

 

So far as I could see uop until now the larger part of the socket could only work on large untapered spindles like those on the Birmingham main line. I can't see it could have worked on (say) a large spindle with a taper, like GU locks used to have.

 

But you now say it's not suited to the Knowle to Calcutt paddles.....

 

So what is that part of the eye suited to ? Possibly some hydraulic gear that retains larger spindles ?

 

Or is this thing just an excellent windlass for the smaller (tapered) spindles, but which is of limited usefulness if it doesn't fit those ?

 

Why not just have a simple "one size" one, if they could still be obtained ?

[Chertsey]

Are we taking about the same thing here? The one I used - clearly marked 'Dunton Double' had a tapered hole. So it would work on a large or small straight spindle in the same (unsatisfactory) way an ordinary windlass works on a tapered spindle, but comes into its own on a tapered spindle where it feels really solid, and very comfortable to use.

[richardf]

There's one on ebay at the moment

Item No. 170360393092

 

And no, it's not me selling it!!

[carlt]

There's one on ebay at the moment

Item No. 170360393092

 

And no, it's not me selling it!!

Clicky

[pete harrison]

I'm confused now!

 

So far as I could see uop until now the larger part of the socket could only work on large untapered spindles like those on the Birmingham main line. I can't see it could have worked on (say) a large spindle with a taper, like GU locks used to have.

 

But you now say it's not suited to the Knowle to Calcutt paddles.....

 

So what is that part of the eye suited to ? Possibly some hydraulic gear that retains larger spindles ?

 

Or is this thing just an excellent windlass for the smaller (tapered) spindles, but which is of limited usefulness if it doesn't fit those ?

 

Why not just have a simple "one size" one, if they could still be obtained ?

 

My Dunton Double (which has the word "double" on both sides) is definately tapered. The hole that fits over the spindle starts off as large Grand Union size and reduces throughout the first three quarters of its length. The last quarter is of a slightly narrower taper being formed by a noticable step of approximately 1mm. This narrow section continues the taper to the end of the hole. The larger side of the hole is about one and three sixteenth inches (30mm) and the smaller side is one inch (24 mm). I am unable to measure the stepped point at which the larger section reduces to the smaller section as it too far inside the windlass hole.

 

It is the tapering that makes this windlass less suitable to use between Knowle and Wigrams / Calcutt as the spindles in this section of canal are non tapering large Grand Union size. I have used my Dunton Double throughout the waterways system, including the Grand Union Canal from Braunston to London (the canal I seem to use most often) without any problem and it is very effective. I have even used it at Tardebigge without fault. As far as I can see the only real downside to a Dunton windlass (or any other alloy windlass) is that they are difficult to retrieve if dropped into the canal.

 

I prefer the standard length as it is easier to carry and store.

[alan_fincher]

Are we taking about the same thing here? The one I used - clearly marked 'Dunton Double' had a tapered hole. So it would work on a large or small straight spindle in the same (unsatisfactory) way an ordinary windlass works on a tapered spindle, but comes into its own on a tapered spindle where it feels really solid, and very comfortable to use.

 

I'm struggling to understand myself now ! I think I need to handle one in the flesh !

 

From a previous post, I had understood them to be "stepped" between the broad and the narrow bit.

 

Pete's post (below) seems to say there is a noticeable step, but that it is actually small, (about 1mm ?) - I assumed greater.

 

If both parts are tapered, as people seem to be saying, I still don't understand why the step doesn't prevent a good fit on to the larger size tapered spindles, (where are these ?!?), as usually a tapered end sticks some considerable way through the windlass, and at the moment I can't see why it wouldn't either hit the step, or attempt to engage with the narrow part first.

 

To be honest, if it's not useful for the non-tapered Birmingham main line spindles, I'm far less interested.

 

I'm trying to remember where else we have encountered odd sized spindles - I want to say on (some) surviving 1970s "hydraulics", but recall that when first fitted to the GU, they actually used narrow canal type spindles, requiring two styles of windlass at the same lock.

 

I quite like the "standard" alloy 2-hole windlasses. However it has always seemed stupid to me that the smaller, more tapered eye, is the one with the shorter throw. This is the one I use 95% of the time, and it would make more sense (to me) that it was the "outer" one, and that it was the less tapered one that had the lesser throw. I typically use that on the Calcutt to Knowle locks, which require umpteen turns, rather than all out grunt, and a shortish throw is good on these.

 

Perhaps they would make a "special" or two.

 

 

My Dunton Double (which has the word "double" on both sides) is definately tapered. The hole that fits over the spindle starts off as large Grand Union size and reduces throughout the first three quarters of its length. The last quarter is of a slightly narrower taper being formed by a noticable step of approximately 1mm. This narrow section continues the taper to the end of the hole. The larger side of the hole is about one and three sixteenth inches (30mm) and the smaller side is one inch (24 mm). I am unable to measure the stepped point at which the larger section reduces to the smaller section as it too far inside the windlass hole.

 

It is the tapering that makes this windlass less suitable to use between Knowle and Wigrams / Calcutt as the spindles in this section of canal are non tapering large Grand Union size. I have used my Dunton Double throughout the waterways system, including the Grand Union Canal from Braunston to London (the canal I seem to use most often) without any problem and it is very effective. I have even used it at Tardebigge without fault. As far as I can see the only real downside to a Dunton windlass (or any other alloy windlass) is that they are difficult to retrieve if dropped into the canal.

 

I prefer the standard length as it is easier to carry and store.

 

Pete,

 

I have to admit I'm not that observant about where spindle sizes and taper differ from what now seems to be the norm, (I was brought up on the big ones formerly on the Southern GU, all sadly now gone - I have a box of now quite useless windlasses!).

 

Clearly the Birmingham line is an obvious exception.

 

I know I have encountered others where the standard tapered windlass will not work. I'm blowed if I can remember where, but seem to remember some non standard Hydraulic gear, possinly as Hanwell, but that sounds wrong.

 

Does anybody know the locations where a bigger less (or non) tapered eye is the correct one to use, please ?

[BEngo]

I'm struggling to understand myself now ! I think I need to handle one in the flesh !

 

From a previous post, I had understood them to be "stepped" between the broad and the narrow bit.

 

Pete's post (below) seems to say there is a noticeable step, but that it is actually small, (about 1mm ?) - I assumed greater.

 

If both parts are tapered, as people seem to be saying, I still don't understand why the step doesn't prevent a good fit on to the larger size tapered spindles, (where are these ?!?), as usually a tapered end sticks some considerable way through the windlass, and at the moment I can't see why it wouldn't either hit the step, or attempt to engage with the narrow part first.

 

To be honest, if it's not useful for the non-tapered Birmingham main line spindles, I'm far less interested.

 

I'm trying to remember where else we have encountered odd sized spindles - I want to say on (some) surviving 1970s "hydraulics", but recall that when first fitted to the GU, they actually used narrow canal type spindles, requiring two styles of windlass at the same lock.

 

I quite like the "standard" alloy 2-hole windlasses. However it has always seemed stupid to me that the smaller, more tapered eye, is the one with the shorter throw. This is the one I use 95% of the time, and it would make more sense (to me) that it was the "outer" one, and that it was the less tapered one that had the lesser throw. I typically use that on the Calcutt to Knowle locks, which require umpteen turns, rather than all out grunt, and a shortish throw is good on these.

 

Perhaps they would make a "special" or two.

 

 

 

 

Pete,

 

I have to admit I'm not that observant about where spindle sizes and taper differ from what now seems to be the norm, (I was brought up on the big ones formerly on the Southern GU, all sadly now gone - I have a box of now quite useless windlasses!).

 

Clearly the Birmingham line is an obvious exception.

 

I know I have encountered others where the standard tapered windlass will not work. I'm blowed if I can remember where, but seem to remember some non standard Hydraulic gear, possinly as Hanwell, but that sounds wrong.

 

Does anybody know the locations where a bigger less (or non) tapered eye is the correct one to use, please ?

 

 

 

I think there is confusion here. Once upon a time, before Satellite was to be seen around Aylesbury basin in swaddling clothes, there were several sizes of spindle, which esentially fitted three windlasses:

 

 

Big GU- tapered. Big End about 1 1/2 inches. This fitted everything from Limehouse and Brentford to the top of Camp Hill as well as the narrow GU branches to Aylesbury and Northampton.

 

K&A 1 1/4 inches ( I never saw a K&A windlass so I don't know if it was straight or tapered)

 

Small Midlands- tapered. This fitted, more or less well, everything else. It slid on to the 1 inch BCN spindles and much further on to the smaller Shroppie and T&M spindles (7/8 in big end I think).

 

The common two eyed windlass fitted the GU and Small Midlands. Working Boatmen had proper purpose sized windlasses for the canals they worked- Rose Skinner's Oxford windlass is on display somewhere and the throw is incredibly short compared with a modern windlass, but with the right knack it would have really whipped up a paddle. But I digress.

 

BW, ignoring a good deal of outcry, in aboput the mid-eighties decided to standardise on two spindles: Small tapered and large non-tapered. Small tapered was fitted to everything apart from hydraulic paddles and the Ham and Baker paddle gear from Calcutt top to Knowle top. These got the big plain spindle. At the time of introduction BW published the spindle standards and BW would trade any windlass for a replacement which was made to the new standards, either cheaply or, in many cases, for free.

 

My Dunton is as near plain as can be done in a casting for the first part of its hole, which fits the large plain spindles as far as a step. This part seems to stay on well, perhaps because the winding forces on hydraulics and H&B paddle gear are relatively low. The remainder which is about a 2mm step smaller on each side is tapered and fits the small tapered spindles with some sticking out.

 

Regards

N

[alan_fincher]

Thanks,

 

That's all very helpful, and much what I thought, (though I had no K&A knowledge).

 

What you have said is what I would expect - the Dunton windlass should work on a Birmingham line style spindle, but will only push on as far as the point it changes to a small taper.

 

However Pete reports that it's not very satisfactory used this way, and if that's true, then these don't seem too clever, as effectively they are only really OK on a (new) standard sized taper. At over £20 for something that doesn't work well on big spindles, I wouldn't bother.

 

Also WW's post implies she may have seen a Dunton widndlass where both parts are tapered, (or perhaps I misunderstand ?).

 

 

The other confusion in my muddled head is that when the obnoxious hydraulic paddles were first forced on us on the GU, then they got narrow spindles, not (old) southern GU style spindles, requiring you to either carry two windlasses, or a dual headed one. (I'm absolutely sure about this).

 

From memory it seems that whilst the spindle size for "traditional" gear on the Southern GU was reduced, in the manner you say, at some time at least some of the hydraulic must have been altered to bigger (non taper) spindles. That seems highly bizarre - if they had left them alone, you could work the whole lock with the same eye.

 

But I have a feeling that I have seen "small spindled" hydraulic gear too, in recent years, so I'm not convinced even that is standardised.

 

Parks anorak !

[magnetman]

They did a brass version of the Dunton Double as well...

Oh dear... Heaviest windlass I've come across so far (other than the Rochdale ones

 

and at one point they did make a small taper single version. I don't know for certain if it was dunton but its a single socket small taper only aluminium windlass with the same design, not a Walsh or anything like that.

 

The stepped 'double' version is more common though, with a parallel part at the beginning followed by a taper part. When I used one in the dim and distant past I found it tended to lock itself onto the spindles on Northern GU candlestick paddles like Hatton for example which have a large taper.

[frangar]

When I used one in the dim and distant past I found it tended to lock itself onto the spindles on Northern GU candlestick paddles like Hatton for example which have a large taper.

 

I found this but cured it by putting some copper grease on the hole in the windlass...one application lasted the whole of the flight!.....Both our Duntons worked fine on Hatton etc apart from that....in fact the only time we went back to our steel ones was when we did the Erewash and that was as much for self defence as having to cope with the very stiff paddles....

 

Ours are the stepped taper design....we have one normal and one long throw....

 

HTH

 

Cheers

 

Gareth