live aboard pump out or cassette single or twin fuel tanks

[Reiki Master]

My wife and I are planning to place and order for a new boat end 09. We shall be living aboard in retirement, with a marina base in the midlands (for business purposes) but extensive cruising of the network. We have a short list of builders but can't decide on whether to have a cassette toilet system or pump out. We are lookng at all the expenses involved including cost of pump outs. So could we elicit the views of exisiting live aboard owners as to their experiences/preferences???

 

Secondly given the raging debate about 60/40 fuel split and charging methods by fuel sellers is there now any point in having a boat with seperate tanks for fuel and heat???

 

Your comments would begreatly appreciated

 

very many thanks

 

 

Reiki Master

[david and julie]

Hi Reiki Master and welcome.

 

Bit of a hot potato on here toilets, so be prepared.

 

I prefer pump-outs as long as they are well designed, have large tanks and contents gauges - but they are much more expensive and could potentially give more trouble - but mine hasn't.

 

Many others prefer cassettes with their inherent simplicity and ease of emptying - especially if frozen in. They do however require some physical effort and only you can decide how you feel about emptying them - especially when the contents ain't your own.

 

I'd go for twin tanks, the extra cost is minimal during manufacture and lets be realistic we are getting a concession at the moment and that could end any time the Gov wanted - and they are really broke.

 

By law the fuel sellers aren't allowed to dictate your diesel declaration.

[ditchcrawler]

Hi Reiki Master and welcome.

 

Bit of a hot potato on here toilets, so be prepared.

 

I prefer pump-outs as long as they are well designed, have large tanks and contents gauges - but they are much more expensive and could potentially give more trouble - but mine hasn't.

 

Many others prefer cassettes with their inherent simplicity and ease of emptying - especially if frozen in. They do however require some physical effort and only you can decide how you feel about emptying them - especially when the contents ain't your own.

 

I'd go for twin tanks, the extra cost is minimal during manufacture and lets be realistic we are getting a concession at the moment and that could end any time the Gov wanted - and they are really broke.

 

By law the fuel sellers aren't allowed to dictate your diesel declaration.

I go along with all that.

[Ex- Member]

We have diesel bow tanks one each side to supply the stove, I think we paid £200 each. They also make the bow cratch look a lot neater IMO and extra tank or tanks simply give you more options and of course capacity.

 

As stated loo's are a hot debate, not for us though as we went for a composting toilet, worth considering as well.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Julynian

[camwombat]

We have a pump-out on our boat (&on our previous boat), and have had no problems with it, we have more issues with our local pump-out facility being rubbish and often broken. I agree that they can prove more costly, particularly in terms of emptying, however that varies depending on where you are moored. Fortunately for us and the local situation, we have a back up of a porta-potti, which is occasionally used.

 

With regards fuel tanks, we have two, one for the engine and generator and one for the heating, something we have found pretty useful, as you are very unlikely to run out of fuel with two tanks, and in emergency can pump between them. There is also an exemption for the fuel for residential boats at the following link:

http://www.waterways.org.uk/News/OtherCampaigns/RedDiesel

 

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for

domestic purposes - what can they declare?

 

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose

primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings

or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent

moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain

documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence,

Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral

documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent

residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if

they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and

sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling

purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that

they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the

validity of the declaration made in these circumstances.

 

I may have just opened a can of worms

[bottle]

Reiki Master

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

My answer, have it all.

 

We will be CCers (Continuous Cruisers)

 

Our boat, in build, will have a cassette loo and a pump out, different locations on boat.

 

Reasoning, pump out to travel longer without needing to empty, cassette for those times, when a pump out is unavailable or we get 'iced in' for example.

 

Twin tanks one for the engine and one for the generator/diesel heating.

 

This will make it easier for declaration, the generator/heating tank will be declared at 0% propulsion-100% generation/heating and the engine will be declared at a different split, to be decide at a later date

[nb Innisfree]

Make sure p/o tank is large enough, we have 130 gal. capacity and usually look for p/o when approx 75% full which takes approx. 4 weeks (two of us liveaboard c.cruisers) Some builders exaggerate or miscalculate tank capacity. Only trouble with twin tanks is you pay tax on electricity generated by propulsion engine so you need a dedicated genny, less flexibility.

[bottle]

Make sure p/o tank is large enough, we have 130 gal. capacity and usually look for p/o when approx 75% full which takes approx. 4 weeks (two of us liveaboard c.cruisers) Some builders exaggerate or miscalculate tank capacity. Only trouble with twin tanks is you pay tax on electricity generated by propulsion engine so you need a dedicated genny, less flexibility.

 

Why? All you need to do is declare the correct percentage.

[pagan witch]

Ours is an ex-hire boat with a large holding tank - we calculate around 200 gallons. The only problems we've had so far have been with the toilet and even these have been minor.

 

1) The flush water selenoid packed up a few weeks ago but when I took it out to look at it there was a simple wiring fault. Seems that from day 1 the push fit connection inside the housing hadn't been correctly lined up. Took longer to take out and put back than it did to fix.

 

2) The macerator has jammed twice (in 5 years) both times this has been due to chunks of limescale falling off of the rubber pipes. We renewd all of the rubbers last year and also treat the whole system to a dose of neat white vinegar to kill of the limescale without killing of the toilet tank.

 

We bought a self pump out kit - paid for itself umpteen times over, but we are lucky in having 2 BWB points that accept this nearby.

 

With 3 liveaboard we normally aim to do a 'Poos Cruise' every 3 - 4 weeks. We don't use any chemicals and never had a smell from it.

[sueb]

Make sure p/o tank is large enough, we have 130 gal. capacity and usually look for p/o when approx 75% full which takes approx. 4 weeks (two of us liveaboard c.cruisers) Some builders exaggerate or miscalculate tank capacity. Only trouble with twin tanks is you pay tax on electricity generated by propulsion engine so you need a dedicated genny, less flexibility.

Make sure pump out tank isn't too large or you will need two cards to pump it out. Get a 12v diy pump out kit and save money.

Sue

[nb Innisfree]

The idea of twin tanks I thought was to keep one for propulsion and one for domestic (0% declaration) so that would preclude any tax deduction for propulsion tank

 

Ref 12v pumpout kit. If you have a p/o at roof level 12/24v pumps struggle with this lift, not much left for delivery. This is the case with me so if and when I get one I will go for 230v, more umph. One could permanently install 12v pump at inline at a lower level.

[mrsmelly]

My wife and I are planning to place and order for a new boat end 09. We shall be living aboard in retirement, with a marina base in the midlands (for business purposes) but extensive cruising of the network. We have a short list of builders but can't decide on whether to have a cassette toilet system or pump out. We are lookng at all the expenses involved including cost of pump outs. So could we elicit the views of exisiting live aboard owners as to their experiences/preferences???

 

Secondly given the raging debate about 60/40 fuel split and charging methods by fuel sellers is there now any point in having a boat with seperate tanks for fuel and heat???

 

Your comments would begreatly appreciated

 

very many thanks

 

 

Reiki Master

 

Dead simple ......always always always a cassette toilet and no need for two tanks, simple as that............next question

[NB Alnwick]

The idea of twin tanks I thought was to keep one for propulsion and one for domestic (0% declaration) so that would preclude any tax deduction for propulsion tank

 

HM Revenue and Customs have accepted that, even on a boat that has no separate generator and no oil fired heating or appliances, a percentage of the fuel consumed by the engine is likely to be spent generating electricity for domestic purposes - even when it is simultaneously propelling the vessel. That is why the option of a standard 60/40 split has been made available with no requirement on the part of the consumer to keep records as evidence. If you do have separate tanks - for example one for oil fired heating, appliances and/or a generator, then the fuel in that tank should quite rightly be at the 100% domestic tariff but if you also have an alternator driven by the engine that is used to charge the domestic battery bank, you may also claim a percentage split on the fuel in the propulsion tank.

[sueb]

The idea of twin tanks I thought was to keep one for propulsion and one for domestic (0% declaration) so that would preclude any tax deduction for propulsion tank

 

Ref 12v pumpout kit. If you have a p/o at roof level 12/24v pumps struggle with this lift, not much left for delivery. This is the case with me so if and when I get one I will go for 230v, more umph. One could permanently install 12v pump at inline at a lower level.

Why try and lift your sh** to roof level, do you need to water your plants?

Sue

[nb Innisfree]

HM Revenue and Customs have accepted that, even on a boat that has no separate generator and no oil fired heating or appliances, a percentage of the fuel consumed by the engine is likely to be spent generating electricity for domestic purposes - even when it is simultaneously propelling the vessel. That is why the option of a standard 60/40 split has been made available with no requirement on the part of the consumer to keep records as evidence. If you do have separate tanks - for example one for oil fired heating, appliances and/or a generator, then the fuel in that tank should quite rightly be at the 100% domestic tariff but if you also have an alternator driven by the engine that is used to charge the domestic battery bank, you may also claim a percentage split on the fuel in the propulsion tank.

 

 

My original point about 0% declaration for continuous cruisers was to warn people against buying from suppliers who only sell diesel for domestic use only. They do the paperwork but the onus is on the purchaser to pay any duty. HMRC can check records

[bottle]

My original point about 0% declaration for continuous cruisers was to warn people against buying from suppliers who only sell diesel for domestic use only. They do the paperwork but the onus is on the purchaser to pay any duty. HMRC can check records

 

Read my signature

[nb Innisfree]

Why try and lift your sh** to roof level, do you need to water your plants?

Sue

 

I originally designed it like that to facilitate p/o from either side. Don't want to install inline p/o. Don't have plants

[bargeeboy]

The idea of twin tanks I thought was to keep one for propulsion and one for domestic (0% declaration) so that would preclude any tax deduction for propulsion tank

 

 

Correct you are making a true declaration and as such at narrowcraft we build with seperate tanks.

 

We log when we sell to seperate tanks.

 

You can also if you wish run your heating on more efficient fuel.

[Tony Brooks]

Hi Reiki Master and welcome.

 

Bit of a hot potato on here toilets, so be prepared.

 

I prefer pump-outs as long as they are well designed, have large tanks and contents gauges - but they are much more expensive and could potentially give more trouble - but mine hasn't.

 

Many others prefer cassettes with their inherent simplicity and ease of emptying - especially if frozen in. They do however require some physical effort and only you can decide how you feel about emptying them - especially when the contents ain't your own.

 

I'd go for twin tanks, the extra cost is minimal during manufacture and lets be realistic we are getting a concession at the moment and that could end any time the Gov wanted - and they are really broke.

 

By law the fuel sellers aren't allowed to dictate your diesel declaration.

 

 

I disagree with the statement about pump outs being more complex (but I also prefer them). A macerator or vacuum pump out certainly will be more complex but there is still the "traditional" dump thorough. That one does not need a gauge, you just look down the hole and it certainly will not block like a macerator or vacuum toilet can (Ok I accept the pump out but may block if someone uses it as a refuse bin).

 

I know at least one person on here does not agree with this, but a holding tank WILL NOT SMELL as long as you ensure a flow of air across the surface of the contents and do not use blue. To do this you need two large bore breathers (say 28mm), one at each end of the tank, and if you can incorporate a computer fan in one of them it will deal with the little smell you get when the thing has been left without use for a while. Once again I extend an invitation to visit JennnyB & see/smell for yourself.

 

Because of the ease of checking the level there is no excuse for not knowing when its time to order the gentlemen of the party to use the vegetation pending finding a pump out, but this has never happened to us.

 

Personally I would go for a fairly large tank (ours will last three weeks with two aboard an occasional guests) and has not been pumped out since last October. I agree with Sue (I think) that you do not want a tank so large you can not pump it out on one "card".

[WJM]

I have a cassette system. I have never had a pump out system but many of the boats in my marina have pump out. Purely an observation but; The only thing that seems to consistently cause stress, torment, worry and bother to my fellow boaters is their pump out systems. If the machine is not broken then the canal is frozen and they cant get to it or their engine does not work and they need a tow. We have quite a long walk to our Elsan point but I have never heard any of the cassette users getting unduly stressed as they wheel their little trolley over the bridge. I think it is a good idea to keep systems on a boat as simple as possible and for me, pump out is way too complex.

Edited March 10, 2009 by WJM

[LEO]

Hi,

 

 

Definately have 2 diesel tanks. I have one for heating (no Duty) and 1 for engine (60%Charging /40% prop ).

 

Leo

[david and julie]

Once again I extend an invitation to visit JennnyB & see/smell for yourself.

I'm not sure whether to thank you for the invite or not.

[Strads]

My comments based on a years experience..

 

Composting loo's - delicate to sort and set up - ours tsruggles with fluids! (from 2)

 

but have added in the fit out a seperate pump out...

 

 

if you specifiying tanks - would definately suggest additional fuel tanks -

a for tax - ease of argument and also additional capacity..

 

would also suggest looking at having a stainless water tank and seeing what you can do re maxing out the size of the water tank - saves on filling every two weeks etc, but also on using the gas locker space as a water tank and having either smaller seperate gas lockers on the front deck between the diesel tank or have the diesel under the floow if your design will allow.

 

Logis being its much harder to extend/enlarge once done, but your not oblidged to fill the diesel (or water tank) full every time if you dont want to..

 

stainless should be less hassle re cleaning/maintaining..

[Derri]

My comments based on a years experience..

 

Composting loo's - delicate to sort and set up - ours tsruggles with fluids! (from 2)

 

but have added in the fit out a seperate pump out...

 

 

if you specifiying tanks - would definately suggest additional fuel tanks -

a for tax - ease of argument and also additional capacity..

 

would also suggest looking at having a stainless water tank and seeing what you can do re maxing out the size of the water tank - saves on filling every two weeks etc, but also on using the gas locker space as a water tank and having either smaller seperate gas lockers on the front deck between the diesel tank or have the diesel under the floow if your design will allow.

 

Logis being its much harder to extend/enlarge once done, but your not oblidged to fill the diesel (or water tank) full every time if you dont want to..

 

stainless should be less hassle re cleaning/maintaining..

 

Another live aboard vote for a composting loo here - we have a nature's head.

It is one of the ones that seperates (without being too indelicate) solids and liquids.

After it being fine for months as we fitted out, it began to collect to much liquid in the solid bit. After pondering several incredibly complex engineering solutions, I finally realised the weight distribution in the boat had shifted and it was leaning ever so slightly back!

A bit of wood wedged under the back has fixed it a treat

[WJM]

God Almighty!!!!!!! - is it just me or does anyone else think a composting toilet is a revolting act of masochism?!