Marina Diesel Fuel Price

[Doorman]

We have recently bought diesel from our Marina where we were charged £1.05 per litre for propulsion. This total price was evolved from a base cost of £0.65 per litre, with duty amounting to

£0.407 per litre.

 

How can this be right when you can buy white diesel on the garage forecourt locally for £0.97?

 

Your comments would be welcome!

 

Mike

[bottle]

The rule of supply and demand.

 

The marina does not have a large demand and probably cannot buy diesel at the rate of the local garage.

[alan_fincher]

You have actually been under-charged for the propulsion diesel, if they are charging 65 ppl for non-propulsion and 105 ppl for propulsion.

 

The difference in duty between the two, plus the 5% VAT on that difference, should actually be 43 ppl (rounded to nearest pence).

 

So if non propulsion is 65p, propulsion should be £1.08.

 

Canal-side outlets don't sell in anything like the volumes of road filling stations, so inevitably must pay more for the wholesale price of the product. Hence they must charge more for it, if the business is to be worthwhile to them.

 

£1.05 for propulsion sounds pretty good to me - many places are charging massively more than this.

 

Typical roadside price around here for ULS DERV is 99 ppl, so £1.05 sounds good, considering the volumes they are trading are so much lower. (Well sounds OK to me, anyway!)

 

Alan

[magpie patrick]

How can this be right when you can buy white diesel on the garage forecourt locally for £0.97?

 

Your comments would be welcome!

 

Mike

 

Leaving aside the price differential, forecourt diesel is ULS (Ultra Low Sulphur), generally red diesel is not ULS and is subject to a higher taxation rate when applied to propulsion

 

Bit like if your boat ran on leaded petrol

 

BTW our local price for forecourt diesel is £1.01, Saul Marina for the boat is £1.00 with full tax

Edited February 3, 2009 by magpie patrick

[ditchcrawler]

You have actually been under-charged for the propulsion diesel, if they are charging 65 ppl for non-propulsion and 105 ppl for propulsion.

 

The difference in duty between the two, plus the 5% VAT on that difference, should actually be 43 ppl (rounded to nearest pence).

 

So if non propulsion is 65p, propulsion should be £1.08.

 

Canal-side outlets don't sell in anything like the volumes of road filling stations, so inevitably must pay more for the wholesale price of the product. Hence they must charge more for it, if the business is to be worthwhile to them.

 

£1.05 for propulsion sounds pretty good to me - many places are charging massively more than this.

 

Typical roadside price around here for ULS DERV is 99 ppl, so £1.05 sounds good, considering the volumes they are trading are so much lower. (Well sounds OK to me, anyway!)

 

Alan

But they are getting an extra 10% on their margin with the lower VAT.

Brian

[Nickhlx]

Leaving aside the price differential, forecourt diesel is ULS (Ultra Low Sulphur), generally red diesel is not ULS and is subject to a higher taxation rate when applied to propulsion

 

Bit like if your boat ran on leaded petrol

 

 

Then why do canalside vendors not stock / sell white diesel and hike the price by a lower amount when used for propulsion ? Or do some devices NEED red diesel for some reason... or is ALL white diesel to be sold WITH tax/duty ?

 

Nick

[alan_fincher]

Leaving aside the price differential, forecourt diesel is ULS (Ultra Low Sulphur), generally red diesel is not ULS and is subject to a higher taxation rate when applied to propulsion

Other than the VAT component, I'm not sure that's true - the last time I looked, the actual fuel duty on ULS DERV and on red gas oil used for propulsion was exactly the same number. (Unless it's changed recently ?).

 

 

Then why do canalside vendors not stock / sell white diesel and hike the price by a lower amount when used for propulsion ? Or do some devices NEED red diesel for some reason... or is ALL white diesel to be sold WITH tax/duty ?

You couldn't sell white ULS DERV at a marina at anything other than the fully taxed price. If you could, the many people seen carrying off Jerry cans from my marina could be putting it straight in their cars.

 

Well they could be anyway, but with the dye in HMRC have a chance of catching them. If it got to be known you could buy unmarked road diesel at two thirds of garage forecourt prices, how much of it do you think would actually end up in boats.

 

By my reckoning if a marina sold fully taxed "white" it would cost very much more than "red" sold for propulsion. They are likely to be paying more for it, the duty, I still believe, is the same, but that extra 10% VAT (on everything) would be the real killer.

 

I do accept Brian's point that the 10% VAT difference is effectively extra "margin" to the marine supplier, when trying to make a comparison with DERV prices - perhaps they make more than they admit to ?

 

Alan

[Steilsteven]

Other than the VAT component, I'm not sure that's true - the last time I looked, the actual fuel duty on ULS DERV and on red gas oil used for propulsion was exactly the same number. (Unless it's changed recently ?).

 

 

 

You couldn't sell white ULS DERV at a marina at anything other than the fully taxed price. If you could, the many people seen carrying off Jerry cans from my marina could be putting it straight in their cars.

 

Well they could be anyway, but with the dye in HMRC have a chance of catching them. If it got to be known you could buy unmarked road diesel at two thirds of garage forecourt prices, how much of it do you think would actually end up in boats.

 

By my reckoning if a marina sold fully taxed "white" it would cost very much more than "red" sold for propulsion. They are likely to be paying more for it, the duty, I still believe, is the same, but that extra 10% VAT (on everything) would be the real killer.

 

I do accept Brian's point that the 10% VAT difference is effectively extra "margin" to the marine supplier, when trying to make a comparison with DERV prices - perhaps they make more than they admit to ?

 

Alan

 

The mark up at marinas is around 30%, the mark up at filling stations is around 5%.

 

Keith.

[pagan witch]

Just a thought but I can't see any reason why you couldn't buy red and declare full 'non propulsion' and then buy standard ULS 'white' from a petrol station then put this into your tank.

 

You'd not be evading any duty and would be in theory at least be 'improving' the quality of the fuel if you are of the 'red we buy is of a lower grade' line of thought that is often a topic on the forum and if you don't subscribe to this view then you must accept that mixing the two is certaily not going to make the mix any worse than 'standard' red.

 

A simple note book to prove purchases should do the trick as far as record keeping goes and I guess a fair number of us keep cruise logs that include engine run hours (yes I know that doesn't perfectly equate to fuel use do to variations in engine speed but we all have a pretty good idea of our propulsion fuel economy).

 

The place I normally buy red from does keep a register, as is required but openly has no interest at all in what proportion you declare for propulsion. The same supplier tells me that there are no plans in place for HMRC to inspect the marina records, though they do have the power to do so. All he does is 'keep a record' it is up to the boater to sign the declaration, not the reseller to check it.

[Liam]

YER WHAT!?!?!

 

50ppl, delivered to the moorings!

[Neil TNC]

We have recently bought diesel from our Marina where we were charged £1.05 per litre for propulsion. This total price was evolved from a base cost of £0.65 per litre, with duty amounting to

£0.407 per litre.

 

How can this be right when you can buy white diesel on the garage forecourt locally for £0.97?

 

Your comments would be welcome!

 

Mike

 

 

I bought 40 over a year ago, before the rush and the prices went sky high.

It was widely predicted that this would happen and what would be the outcome.

Actually I needed them for Ireland as there is virtualy no Green (or Red, but I never buy it in the North) diesel for sale on the Irish "Canals".

They have also come in handy during the last road fuel shortage.

Welcome to third world Britain?

[Steilsteven]

YER WHAT!?!?!

 

50ppl, delivered to the moorings!

 

 

I took a delivery of 800 litres on 6th Jan £378 you work it out.

 

Keith

[Liam]

£378.00 / 800 = 0.4725.

 

I suppose the more you buy the cheaper you'll get it for. This 50pppl is for a normal 20L drum.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Liam

[Steilsteven]

£378.00 / 800 = 0.4725.

 

I suppose the more you buy the cheaper you'll get it for. This 50pppl is for a normal 20L drum.

 

50ppl for such a small amount sounds decidedly dodgy.

Our moorings landlord, who also sells diesel had to buy a couple of 200L drums of red the year before last, it actually cost him more buying it this way than what he charged.

 

Keith

[tosher]

Just a thought but I can't see any reason why you couldn't buy red and declare full 'non propulsion' and then buy standard ULS 'white' from a petrol station then put this into your tank.

 

You'd not be evading any duty and would be in theory at least be 'improving' the quality of the fuel if you are of the 'red we buy is of a lower grade' line of thought that is often a topic on the forum and if you don't subscribe to this view then you must accept that mixing the two is certaily not going to make the mix any worse than 'standard' red.

 

Good idea, that's just what I intend to do unless of course someone tells me it's illegal ? As well as keeping a record of white diesel purchased, the mixture in the tank should be proof enough should HMRC take issue and sample your tank contents. Surely the equipment they use to analyse the fuel would detect a mixture of red/white diesel just as it would if it were testing a car. tosher.

[Naughty Cal]

Weve been buying road diesel for our propulsion and red for our domestic since the beginning of the year and are counting the savings. When you use the amounts of diesel we do the 27p per litre saving we are making by buying white diesel is adding up.

[cotswoldsman]

Last weekend I was at Norbury Junction (not by boat) and diesel at Norbury Wharf was 50.9 ppl unfortunatly I am to far away with boat and closures mean I can't get there. Called local supplier near where I am on Llangollen and was quoted 47 ppl for 500 l no problem between 3 boats. Local marina here is 75 ppl so no brainer we will opt for local supplier at 47 ppl delivered to our boats.

[Nickhlx]

Last weekend I was at Norbury Junction (not by boat) and diesel at Norbury Wharf was 50.9 ppl unfortunatly I am to far away with boat and closures mean I can't get there. Called local supplier near where I am on Llangollen and was quoted 47 ppl for 500 l no problem between 3 boats. Local marina here is 75 ppl so no brainer we will opt for local supplier at 47 ppl delivered to our boats.

 

 

It's started.... soon we'll see "small groups" forming and this will be how it's bought widely...

 

Nick

Edited February 4, 2009 by Nickhlx

[bottle]

Now I am thinking totally out of my head etc. and have no proof but

 

Is it not a requirement that the correct duty and tax is paid for any fuel used for propulsion, so all those that are bulk buying will be declaring to HMRC the fuel used and sending the correct amount to them.

[Nickhlx]

Now I am thinking totally out of my head etc. and have no proof but

 

Is it not a requirement that the correct duty and tax is paid for any fuel used for propulsion, so all those that are bulk buying will be declaring to HMRC the fuel used and sending the correct amount to them.

 

 

That's how I have understood it... and am relatively happy about it rather than keel over and pay canalside prices, unless you buy 28 second Kerosene for heating and white diesel for propulsion. Kerosene is not liable to any payment and nor is white diesel, being duty/taxes paid, so no return is required.

 

Nick

Edited February 4, 2009 by Nickhlx

[alan_fincher]

Now I am thinking totally out of my head etc. and have no proof but

 

Is it not a requirement that the correct duty and tax is paid for any fuel used for propulsion, so all those that are bulk buying will be declaring to HMRC the fuel used and sending the correct amount to them.

I've a suspicion that some non-marine suppliers who deliver red gas-oil direct, are not even aware of the changes that came in on November 1st concerning fuel used for boat propulsion.

 

As anywhere else they supply all fuel will be at the fully rebated rate of duty, they may simply supply to canal boats, unaware that higher duty should be paid on propulsion fuel.

 

Even if they know about it, and you convince them that all fuel used is "non propulsion", I bet few are geared up to accept your signed declaration.

[Hairy-Neil]

Called local supplier near where I am on Llangollen and was quoted 47 ppl for 500 l no problem between 3 boats.

 

You may be asking the tanker driver to break the law if you expect one 500 litre delivery to be split three ways, unless the vehicle has a metering device designed for selling less than tank full quantities. I suggest you make sure the supplier is aware that it will be going into three separate tanks.

[bottle]

There may also be a problem with the size of hose for delivery and the fitment on the end.

[GeoffS]

Other than the VAT component, I'm not sure that's true - the last time I looked, the actual fuel duty on ULS DERV and on red gas oil used for propulsion was exactly the same number. (Unless it's changed recently ?).

 

 

 

You couldn't sell white ULS DERV at a marina at anything other than the fully taxed price. If you could, the many people seen carrying off Jerry cans from my marina could be putting it straight in their cars.

 

Well they could be anyway, but with the dye in HMRC have a chance of catching them. If it got to be known you could buy unmarked road diesel at two thirds of garage forecourt prices, how much of it do you think would actually end up in boats.

 

By my reckoning if a marina sold fully taxed "white" it would cost very much more than "red" sold for propulsion. They are likely to be paying more for it, the duty, I still believe, is the same, but that extra 10% VAT (on everything) would be the real killer.

 

I do accept Brian's point that the 10% VAT difference is effectively extra "margin" to the marine supplier, when trying to make a comparison with DERV prices - perhaps they make more than they admit to ?

 

Alan

 

My marina now only sells fully taxed (with 15% VAT presumably) White diesel for £1.05/litre. This would imply a purchase price with no mark up of 1.05 less 15% VAT = 0.91 less Full Duty of 0.50 = 0.41ppl

[Nickhlx]

You may be asking the tanker driver to break the law if you expect one 500 litre delivery to be split three ways, unless the vehicle has a metering device designed for selling less than tank full quantities. I suggest you make sure the supplier is aware that it will be going into three separate tanks.

 

 

The tanker that delivers here has a meter that measure in fractions of a litre - are you saying that stopping and starting the flow messes up the accuracy - it doesn't on "Tesco" pumps ?

 

Nick