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Name those boats .....


Speedwheel

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IIRC the bow of Darley was only cut off when at Matty's when to was converted to the dredger Will Scarlett - the bow remaining on the bank for some years. I don't think BW cut it off.

 

Presumably the extra guards were only added to boats operational at Bulls Bridge at the time it was done and excluded boats on maintenance. Incidentally I remember Berkhamsted on maintenance at Thrupp around 1976.

 

As for the Ayr/Berkhamsted controversy rumours were rife in the early 80s when the cutting up took place - photo by Tam Murrell here. If the story of the name switch is right I doubt it was a mistake - more like the local staff knowing more about which was the worse boat than the bosses. I have seen another picture which seems to show Berkamsted (or at least a big woolwich with a long name) at Bulls Bridge amongst a collection of derelict butties awaiting disposal. Interestingly the two boats it is moored against don't have cabins.

 

But on the otherhand isn't it just a bit too convenient that Bainton and Berkhamsted are an original pair as supplied by Harland and Wolff? Maybe the owner wanted it to be Berkhampsted?

 

Paul H

 

I totally agree, which is why we will never find out !

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But on the otherhand isn't it just a bit too convenient that Bainton and Berkhamsted are an original pair as supplied by Harland and Wolff? Maybe the owner wanted it to be Berkhampsted?

Ah ! I'd not twigged that!

 

As you imply, without some independent evidence, it all becomes nigh on impossible to know. :lol:

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I was told recently by its owner that only Darley had escaped having the extra guard fitted, on account of not being in possession of its front end at the time. It does seem however that it was unlikely to have been the only one.

 

It's not just boats that were cut about that seemed to escape this extra guard.

 

Pictures of Bexhill from the early to mid 1970s clearly show it doesn't have one. I assume it still doesn't ?

 

Most recent pictures of "un-messed-with" "Towns" do seem to have them, though.

 

Another boat that escaped them was Renton, but that was cut to about 40 feet, and given an ice-breaker snout. It seems possible the modifications were therefore done later than Renton being cut, (whenever that was!).

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Another boat that escaped them was Renton, but that was cut to about 40 feet, and given an ice-breaker snout. It seems possible the modifications were therefore done later than Renton being cut, (whenever that was!).

 

IIRC, Renton was on maintenance duties before nationalisation in 1948.

 

It was one of the oddballs, a town class with a Russell Newbery engine. All with the exception of Stamford were either maintenance boats or sold off early.

 

 

The RN boats were Oakley (maintenance), Paddington (maintenance), Reading (sold to Willow Wren to become Redshank), Renton (maintenance), Southall (maintenance), and Stamford.

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Veering away from topic :lol:

 

Possibly Renton was given the ice blade the same time as the four Middle Northwich boats - which was 1942. However, there might be some doubt about that as Renton's blade was of a different design. Then again, what designs were Sickle, Theophilus, and Sextans - were they the same as Tycho? If they were, it might lead one to think Renton had been fitted up elsewhere than Bulls Bridge, if so, then it may also have been at a different time.

 

Renton:

 

Renton_1.jpg

 

Derek

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Possibly Renton was given the ice blade the same time as the four Middle Northwich boats - which was 1942. However, there might be some doubt about that as Renton's blade was of a different design. Then again, what designs were Sickle, Theophilus, and Sextans - were they the same as Tycho?

Derek, Renton passed me at Uxbridge around 1981 when it was on BWB maintenance on the lower GU. I remember thinking that the ice breaker blade looked rather different to the one I had seen on Tycho at Mattys some years previously. Although Theophilus (in those days, as now, in London) had lost its blade the rivetted brackets remain around the bow and look very similar to those on Tycho. So I would concur with your suggestion that Renton was different to the Middle Northwich conversions (not that I've ever seen Sextans and I don't remember Sickle that well either).

 

Sparky2's photos seem to show a (probably) broken down narrowboat conversion being towed by a helpful working boater.

 

The Danube is the stern end of a wooden narrowboat, still complete with boatman's cabin, although it looks like the cabin has been refitted as it has no chimney or mushroom vent on the roof, but does have a window in the side now. I thought at first that it might be an early hire boat, but the lavish decoration of the exterior suggests private ownership.

 

Danube is being towed by a Large Northwich motor boat loaded with timber, if the shape of the load can be used as a guide. It carries the addtional guards that were discussed here recently, and some decorative ropework and a fine headlamp, which should help to identify it, although a quick look through some of the Robert Wilson series booklets did not allow me to do so unfortunately.

 

 

Steve

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Found this while rooting in a box of photos.

 

 

 

and this

 

DanubeStratfordcanal.jpg

 

I'd be interested to know when that photo was taken, not because of the boat in the foreground but because the grp boat in the background is identical to my parent's first boat, pictured below with me mopping the deck up at Llangollen in August 1963.

 

7-9-2009_010.jpg

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Veering away from topic :lol:

 

Possibly Renton was given the ice blade the same time as the four Middle Northwich boats - which was 1942. However, there might be some doubt about that as Renton's blade was of a different design. Then again, what designs were Sickle, Theophilus, and Sextans - were they the same as Tycho? If they were, it might lead one to think Renton had been fitted up elsewhere than Bulls Bridge, if so, then it may also have been at a different time.

 

Derek

 

RENTON was one of the five G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. boats requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport in 1942 for conversion to an ice breaking tug. Bulls Bridge documents date its conversion as 21 September 1942.

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Found this while rooting in a box of photos.

 

DanubeStratfordcanal.jpg

 

DANUBE was built by W. Nurser & Sons, Braunston as a horse boat for the Salt Union Ltd., Marston in April 1912. It later passed to Mersey Weaver & Ship Canal Carrying Co., Ltd., Burslem and then W.J. Podmore & Sons Ltd., Shelton before been sold off for a pleasure boat conversion in 1950. DANUBE appears to have survived until at least the late 1970's when it was seen at Curdworth (per Waterways World May 1979 page 65).

Edited by pete harrison
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DANUBE was built by W. Nurser & Sons, Braunston as a horse boat for the Salt Union Ltd., Marston in April 1912. It later passed to Mersey Weaver & Ship Canal Carrying Co., Ltd., Burslem and then W.J. Podmore & Sons Ltd., Shelton before been sold off for a pleasure boat conversion in 1950. DANUBE appears to have survived until at least the late 1970's when it was seen at Curdworth (per Waterways World May 1979 page 65).

 

Cheers Pete knew you wouldn't let me down. Photo taken on Summer hols. 1965 @ Kingswood.

 

I'd be interested to know when that photo was taken, not because of the boat in the foreground but because the grp boat in the background is identical to my parent's first boat, pictured below with me mopping the deck up at Llangollen in August 1963.

 

7-9-2009_010.jpg

 

Photo taken 1965 @ Lapworth with the boat of the same name hired from the Tardebigge Boat Co.

We broken down, not for the first time on this hol. if I remember correctly. I do remember breaking down in Kings Norton tunnel and being towed out! We never did make our intended destination of Stratford and I still haven't, by boat.

I've got loads of slides and photos from this era, I will get round to scanning them eventually.

Lapworth I thought wasn't GRP it was constructed of plywood I may be wrong.

Edited by sparky2
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Derek, Renton passed me at Uxbridge around 1981 when it was on BWB maintenance on the lower GU. I remember thinking that the ice breaker blade looked rather different to the one I had seen on Tycho at Mattys some years previously. Although Theophilus (in those days, as now, in London) had lost its blade the rivetted brackets remain around the bow and look very similar to those on Tycho. So I would concur with your suggestion that Renton was different to the Middle Northwich conversions (not that I've ever seen Sextans and I don't remember Sickle that well either).

 

As far as I can see........

 

1) Even today Theophilus has not had it's ram cut back as severely as others. It still projects by maybe 4" to 6". There is clear evidence of those brackets still on the bows.

 

2) Sextans has it cut back far more neatly, so despite it's stem's solidity, it's origins are less clear. There is no evidence of those brackets. I can't remember what it looked like as Wyvern Shipping's Hesperus, but my guess is much like Theophilus, but that it has been cleaned up since.

 

3) By the 1970s Sickle had been cut back a lot further than was done on Theophilus, (more like Sextans now is), but also carried the remains of those distinctive brackets.

 

4) Tycho Derek can fill us in on.

 

 

I think Renton is not the same, the ram looks to have neen quite different, just a blade, and there is no evidence of those brackets for extra support. When I knew Theophilus and Sextans (Hesperus), I assumed they had a ram similar to Renton's - that massive thing on Tycho came as quite a shock to me.

 

My old picture of Renton's ram clearly show three holes on the lower front, just above waterline. Whether this implies that it once had some further thing bolted forward of what survived, I'm not sure.

 

There was a story, (possibly from Matt ?), that one of the Middle Northwiches had "donated" a RAM to Renton - I think that's unlikely personally.

 

Possibly that story came from Ian Tyler, but maybe not - I'm not sure how much he knows of the earlier history of Sickle & Renton.

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Thanks Steve. The first time I saw Renton was when on maintenance duties, and tied near the Navigation, Cosgrove. Must have been post '83 - no blade in place. Later we passed it tied below Leighton lock, and Ian tells me the name of the gent who steered it and lived at Leighton lock - and whose name I've forgotten :lol: . Ian also reckons Renton's blade is (was) in the hold acting as ballast. Seem to recall Caroline Jones and co. have possession of Renton now. Might be wrong.

 

Ian also remembers Sickle with a blade on - same as Tycho - when he first started on Waterways in 1972ish. It got torched off some time after then. The happy chappie at Cassio lock reckons Tycho should have the blade off too. Testacles to 'im.

 

Here's a pair of heavenly twins:

 

118pSickleTychoBraunston.jpg

 

I don't know why my pics are coming out small, but you should just be able to see the brackets on Sickles bow.

Rivet counters will see an excess around the bow plates, these were to hold on the extra layer of plating put on from within.

 

Derek

 

EDIT: Just to say Tycho was shortened and kitted with its blade also at Bulls Bridge - 21 December '42 (date number from a hat? Perhaps a date used as work done 'up to' for ledger purposes). Perhaps they had refined their approach to blade design in the months between Renton's kit and subsequent. The vertical stub might well have been added to Tycho's blade by Matty's for stemming Joey's using chain (credit to Blossom for that).

Edited by Derek R.
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  • 5 months later...

We would love to see your collection of Badsey pics to add to the ones we have. Badsey is usually moored outside our Bistro at Hillmorton but since we took it around the Leicestershire Ring it has been trapped at Welford awaiting first the bridge rebuilding and now the ice.

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We would love to see your collection of Badsey pics to add to the ones we have. Badsey is usually moored outside our Bistro at Hillmorton but since we took it around the Leicestershire Ring it has been trapped at Welford awaiting first the bridge rebuilding and now the ice.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I shall have to pop in sometime with the photographs I have from when I owned BADSEY and BARNES. I also have a few from its Willow Wren Canal Transport Services Ltd. period when paired with CAPELLA and captained by Ken Ward.

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  • 4 months later...
IIRC the bow of Darley was only cut off when at Matty's when to was converted to the dredger Will Scarlett - the bow remaining on the bank for some years. I don't think BW cut it off.

 

Presumably the extra guards were only added to boats operational at Bulls Bridge at the time it was done and excluded boats on maintenance. Incidentally I remember Berkhamsted on maintenance at Thrupp around 1976.

 

As for the Ayr/Berkhamsted controversy rumours were rife in the early 80s when the cutting up took place - photo by Tam Murrell here. If the story of the name switch is right I doubt it was a mistake - more like the local staff knowing more about which was the worse boat than the bosses. I have seen another picture which seems to show Berkamsted (or at least a big woolwich with a long name) at Bulls Bridge amongst a collection of derelict butties awaiting disposal. Interestingly the two boats it is moored against don't have cabins.

 

But on the otherhand isn't it just a bit too convenient that Bainton and Berkhamsted are an original pair as supplied by Harland and Wolff? Maybe the owner wanted it to be Berkhampsted?

 

Paul H

 

I remember Ayr on the Northampton arm probably sometime between 1976-77 with a cabin, when was she thought to be cut up?

Edited by no.341
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It's not just boats that were cut about that seemed to escape this extra guard.

 

Pictures of Bexhill from the early to mid 1970s clearly show it doesn't have one. I assume it still doesn't ?

 

Most recent pictures of "un-messed-with" "Towns" do seem to have them, though.

 

Another boat that escaped them was Renton, but that was cut to about 40 feet, and given an ice-breaker snout. It seems possible the modifications were therefore done later than Renton being cut, (whenever that was!).

The guard was I believe added to protect the bow from hitting stonework, when entering locks fully laden. If Renton was converted to ice breaking, she would have been lighter, and higher out of the water and therefore would not have needed this guard.

 

Renton was double skinned at the bow. Internally a second 5/16" plate was laid between each knee and rivetted in place, so in practice Renton had 5/8" steel plate in the bows, another reason why the guard may have been superflous.

 

Bilster was of course another boat that never had the extra bow guard fitted.

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  • 8 years later...
On 15/07/2009 at 09:39, Derek R. said:

Thanks Steve. The first time I saw Renton was when on maintenance duties, and tied near the Navigation, Cosgrove. Must have been post '83 - no blade in place. Later we passed it tied below Leighton lock, and Ian tells me the name of the gent who steered it and lived at Leighton lock - and whose name I've forgotten :lol: . Ian also reckons Renton's blade is (was) in the hold acting as ballast. Seem to recall Caroline Jones and co. have possession of Renton now. Might be wrong.

 

Ian also remembers Sickle with a blade on - same as Tycho - when he first started on Waterways in 1972ish. It got torched off some time after then. The happy chappie at Cassio lock reckons Tycho should have the blade off too. Testacles to 'im.

 

Here's a pair of heavenly twins:

 

 

118pSickleTychoBraunston.jpg

 

I don't know why my pics are coming out small, but you should just be able to see the brackets on Sickles bow.

Rivet counters will see an excess around the bow plates, these were to hold on the extra layer of plating put on from within.

 

 

Derek

 

 

 

EDIT: Just to say Tycho was shortened and kitted with its blade also at Bulls Bridge - 21 December '42 (date number from a hat? Perhaps a date used as work done 'up to' for ledger purposes). Perhaps they had refined their approach to blade design in the months between Renton's kit and subsequent. The vertical stub might well have been added to Tycho's blade by Matty's for stemming Joey's using chain (credit to Blossom for that).

Yes, I know I am replying to a post from 9 years ago, but the thread has just popped up after another post in it was mentioned in another thread.

The post above is an adequate example of why even first hand accounts by those involved does not guarantee accuracy.

The statement....

"Ian also remembers Sickle with a blade on - same as Tycho - when he first started on Waterways in 1972ish. It got torched off some time after then."

...... can quickly be disproved by the fact that a very clear picture exists of "Sickle" circa 1958 with the ice ram already torched off by that date.

Yet I have had several ex Waterways people tell me "Sickle" still carried the ram into the 1970s.  These include the "Happy Chappie" at Cassio lock that Derek refers to.  When I explained to him that the ram had been removed pre 1958, he claimed it had subsequently been put back again - something that seems exceedingly unlikely to me.

So, (as I have found equally with family history research), first hand memories of people who were actually there are often not correct!
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

The post above is an adequate example of why even first hand accounts by those involved does not guarantee accuracy.

So, (as I have found equally with family history research), first hand memories of people who were actually there are often not correct!

"boatman's tales" = the scourge of credible research :captain:

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