TWT Planning a bonfire!

[hughc]

When this proposed vandalism first came to light I wrote to Rob Laxton who is the chairman of the Parliamentary Waterways Group. He contacted Roger Hanbury and has sent me a copy of his very carefully worded reply. Stripped of the waffle he says that all curatorial work will be carried on at Ellesmere Port which will have a watching brief over Gloucester and Stoke Bruerne. The changes at Gloucester have been to refresh the displays but he is careful to say only that 'many' of the accessioned items removed from display have been retained. I am led to believe that he was unaware of any items being skipped and when he did learn of this and confirmed that it was happening, he put a stop to it. Although, he says, the refreshing of displays at Gloucester has broadened its appeal, visitor numbers have not increased because of the continuing development work around the docks.He asserts that the small number of disposals that have taken place have been dealt with in line with museum policy and with the approval of the MLA.He does say that the Trust is looking to enhance the support given by suitably experienced volunteers, whatever they are. What he does not address is the list of craft disposals except to say that the tug 'Walsall', which I can't see on the list, is being retained in their store. He says that both he and Stuart Gillis - the Director of the NWM-are more than happy to listen to ideas and that "... we are working with partners and moving forward."

I am seriously concerned about the disposals and wonder what the next step is. The policy seems to be that boats will be offered only to groups not individuals and experience tells me that only well organised groups could hope to raise the serious money that restoration of these craft will take. When they have managed through incompetence , bad management and lack of knowledge to destroy the national core collection I suspect the well known cop-out, " lessons will be learned," will be heard,. By then of coursee the architects of the disaster will have moved on. Regards, HughC.

[Phil Speight]

When this proposed vandalism first came to light I wrote to Rob Laxton who is the chairman of the Parliamentary Waterways Group. He contacted Roger Hanbury and has sent me a copy of his very carefully worded reply. Stripped of the waffle he says that all curatorial work will be carried on at Ellesmere Port which will have a watching brief over Gloucester and Stoke Bruerne. The changes at Gloucester have been to refresh the displays but he is careful to say only that 'many' of the accessioned items removed from display have been retained. I am led to believe that he was unaware of any items being skipped and when he did learn of this and confirmed that it was happening, he put a stop to it. Although, he says, the refreshing of displays at Gloucester has broadened its appeal, visitor numbers have not increased because of the continuing development work around the docks.He asserts that the small number of disposals that have taken place have been dealt with in line with museum policy and with the approval of the MLA.He does say that the Trust is looking to enhance the support given by suitably experienced volunteers, whatever they are. What he does not address is the list of craft disposals except to say that the tug 'Walsall', which I can't see on the list, is being retained in their store. He says that both he and Stuart Gillis - the Director of the NWM-are more than happy to listen to ideas and that "... we are working with partners and moving forward."

I am seriously concerned about the disposals and wonder what the next step is. The policy seems to be that boats will be offered only to groups not individuals and experience tells me that only well organised groups could hope to raise the serious money that restoration of these craft will take. When they have managed through incompetence , bad management and lack of knowledge to destroy the national core collection I suspect the well known cop-out, " lessons will be learned," will be heard,. By then of coursee the architects of the disaster will have moved on. Regards, HughC.

The Waterways Trust is very, very, good at "carefully worded" replies.Their response to a question like , perhaps " What has the Trust actually achieved with regard to preserving the physical manifestations of canal heritage in the 12 years ( or however long it is ) that they have been responsible for it? " would bring yet another entirely plausible answer. Smoke and mirrors.

Phil

 

Hi Phil

I keep asking the question but cannot find an answer.

 

I don't suppose you know what happened to Gwendoline, or Dorothy Pax?

Don`t know mate. There was one in dry dock in the middle of Leeds for years and I used to know her name - could it have been "Lizzy B" or similar - but I never saw Gwendoline ( didn`t she go to Ellesmere Port ? )and I never came across Dorothy Pax . My interest began centuries ago when I was part of a project to save a West Country boat that was on the bank at Callis Mill. Can`t even remember the name of that one either - but I don`t think it was "Sobriety" although she was still afloat at the time. YES ! got it - the boat at the mill was "Serenity". I think .

Phil

[carlt]

Don`t know mate. There was one in dry dock in the middle of Leeds for years and I used to know her name - could it have been "Lizzy B" or similar - but I never saw Gwendoline ( didn`t she go to Ellesmere Port ? )and I never came across Dorothy Pax .

Yes, Gwendoline was at Ellesmere Port but she seems to have disappeared off their list (she was Category C).

 

Dorothy Pax is supposed to be in Sheffield but my info, on her, is several years old now.

 

I guess, pretty soon, the only evidence that humber keels were once built of wood will be "Guidance" down at Shoreham!

[AMModels]

Bloody bad - believe me - I used to live in the Museum. Most if not all the category C boats are scrap - some of the group B ones aren`t much better . Strangely though Aries , a Ricky motor, didn`t belong to the museum when I was there,neither did Birchills - both were in private hands. Too many years of absolute and utter neglect. Please folks, if you want an old boat - look elsewhere unless you have bottomless pockets. The ends of Ethel are well worth keeping , and the trust really should be the ones keeping them. There are now no West Country Keels left - unless I`m mistaken , and I hope I am. Their construction goes back to Viking boat design, not the longships ( although see the way the planking rises to meet the stem ) but the wide beam cargo ships. They ( the Vikings ) first established boat building on the Humber the tradition and the basic design remained until Ethel`s day. History in the loosing because it`s custodians don`t actually care.

Phil

 

From the photos Ive seen of wooden keels like those mentioned the construction does bear an amazing similarity to the viking ships and your explanation definitely bears that out. Theres a great website HERE about the different kinds of ships they built and you can see the cargo one is an almost identical basic design. For a trust that is there to preserve and protect the historical aspects of our waterways to decide that one of the last if not THE last example of a wooden built keel isnt preserved smacks of incompetence and mismanagement. I know there are ways to get a petition set up on 10 downing street website is there any support here for doing so and advertising it around the system in order to get the trust examined more thoroughly in the hope of a better management of OUR heritage and not just improved cafe facilities?

[Pluto]

Hi Phil

I keep asking the question but cannot find an answer.

 

I don't suppose you know what happened to Gwendoline, or Dorothy Pax?

 

 

Dorothy Pax was lifted out for restoration just before Sheffield basin. Some work was done, but very badly. When Tony Conder was in charge at the Gloucester Waterways Museum, he asked me to have a look as the boat was to be broken up. There was very little worth keeping, except for some of the cabin fittings which went to the Yorkshire Waterways Museum at Goole. I did make a photographic record, but the boat was too far gone for the lines to be taken accurately.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I helped in moving Gwendoline to Ellesmere Port a few years ago, and she should still be there.

[Pluto]

From the photos Ive seen of wooden keels like those mentioned the construction does bear an amazing similarity to the viking ships and your explanation definitely bears that out. Theres a great website HERE about the different kinds of ships they built and you can see the cargo one is an almost identical basic design. For a trust that is there to preserve and protect the historical aspects of our waterways to decide that one of the last if not THE last example of a wooden built keel isnt preserved smacks of incompetence and mismanagement. I know there are ways to get a petition set up on 10 downing street website is there any support here for doing so and advertising it around the system in order to get the trust examined more thoroughly in the hope of a better management of OUR heritage and not just improved cafe facilities?

 

The main feature of wooden keel construction was that they developed from clinker boats, which is where the Norse connection comes in. If you look at the framing of west-country keels, the spikes holding the planking are driven through the frames and then clenched over, a left over from clinker construction. The stem and stern post was also rebated for the plank ends, some of which were too narrow to be spiked into the apron behind the post. To overcome this, the hooks strengthening the bow and stern were in three sections, one fitting right across the bow. An added advantage of this was that it made the bow much fuller. This type of construction can be found all round the North Sea. On the Irish Sea coast, the boat construction followed carvel technology, the spikes fixing the planks being shorter and not clenched. The shape of the bow was also much finer as the hooks were in two pieces, connected by a knee behind the bow/stern post.

 

Clinker keels disappeared around 1900, but I did find some remains in the River Ouse, just upstream of Goole, where they had been sunk as bank protection. As they are the last remains of boats typical of North Sea coasters, the remains are of particular importance, though they would be difficult to conserve. It is probably more than fifteen years since I recorded them, and don't know their current situation. The remains of several other clinker keels were found at the St Aidans opencast site when the River Aire broke through into the workings, draining the river. They were recorded by the local archaeological group at Castleford, with some of the finds now on display at the Yorkshire Waterways Museum, Goole.

 

The Waterways Trust is very, very, good at "carefully worded" replies.Their response to a question like , perhaps " What has the Trust actually achieved with regard to preserving the physical manifestations of canal heritage in the 12 years ( or however long it is ) that they have been responsible for it? " would bring yet another entirely plausible answer. Smoke and mirrors.

Phil

 

 

Don`t know mate. There was one in dry dock in the middle of Leeds for years and I used to know her name - could it have been "Lizzy B" or similar - but I never saw Gwendoline ( didn`t she go to Ellesmere Port ? )and I never came across Dorothy Pax . My interest began centuries ago when I was part of a project to save a West Country boat that was on the bank at Callis Mill. Can`t even remember the name of that one either - but I don`t think it was "Sobriety" although she was still afloat at the time. YES ! got it - the boat at the mill was "Serenity". I think .

Phil

 

Serenity used to be a house boat at Rodley, just to the north of Leeds, together with two L&LC wooden boats, the Topsy and Darlington IIRC. That would be in the mid-1970s. Around that time, a friend of mine, Chris Topp, lived on Frugality in Leeds basin after fitting her with a steam engine. He later had June, and ex A&CN iron dumb boat, which he rigged at a sailing keel on which we had some interesting trips on the Humber.

[Timleech]

Serenity used to be a house boat at Rodley, just to the north of Leeds, together with two L&LC wooden boats, the Topsy and Darlington IIRC. That would be in the mid-1970s. Around that time, a friend of mine, Chris Topp, lived on Frugality in Leeds basin after fitting her with a steam engine. He later had June, and ex A&CN iron dumb boat, which he rigged at a sailing keel on which we had some interesting trips on the Humber.

 

OK, name these boats

 

 

Tim

[Timleech]

Chris Topp, lived on Frugality in Leeds basin after fitting her with a steam engine. He later had June, and ex A&CN iron dumb boat, which he rigged at a sailing keel on which we had some interesting trips on the Humber.

 

How much do you know of the June's history?

I'd been led to believe she might have been a 'West Country Fly Boat' if there ever was such a thing.

I first knew her when she was still doing odd bits of carrying out of Manchester docks, & later helped to 'fit her out' (sounds grander than it was!) and sometimes steer her as a camping boat on the L&L. She had been rigged in L&L Short Boat style by Monks of Adlington, who had used her for carrying, but was actually closer to Calder & Hebble length.

I did post some pics on here quite a while ago.

 

Here we are

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...20&start=20

 

Note the 'clinker' iron construction

 

Tim

Edited January 8, 2009 by Timleech

[Pluto]

OK, name these boats

 

 

Tim

 

Darlington is sunk in the foreground, Topsy is in the middle, and Serenity is behind. I used to moor Pluto just beyond Serenity back in the mid-1970s.

[Timleech]

Darlington is sunk in the foreground, Topsy is in the middle, and Serenity is behind. I used to moor Pluto just beyond Serenity back in the mid-1970s.

 

I think my photo was taken in the late 1960's

 

Tim

[Pluto]

How much do you know of the June's history?

I'd been led to believe she might have been a 'West Country Fly Boat' if there ever was such a thing.

I first knew her when she was still doing odd bits of carrying out of Manchester docks, & later helped to 'fit her out' (sounds grander than it was!) and sometimes steer her as a camping boat on the L&L. She had been rigged in L&L Short Boat style by Monks of Adlington, who had used her for carrying, but was actually closer to Calder & Hebble length.

I did post some pics on here quite a while ago.

 

Here we are

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...20&start=20

 

Note the 'clinker' iron construction

 

Tim

There are probably three ex ACN short iron boats surviving, nos 27 of 1868, 68 of 1876 and 85 of 1878. They became June, subsequently converted to sailing by Chris Topp, Pauline, now at Leigh and used as a houseboat by Paul Lorenz, and Fair Maiden, which was at Leeds but I think might have come over the L&LC to Manchester. I am not sure which is which, but they carried 70, 65 and 75 tons respectively in numerical order. Fair Maiden was probably 85.

 

I think my photo was taken in the late 1960's

 

Tim

In that case, I am not sure about the foreground boat as Darlington was still lived on with a decent conversion in the 70s.

 

I think my photo was taken in the late 1960's

 

Tim

Just had another look and the boat in the foreground looks to be one of Albert Blundell's, though I'm not sure which. Darlington is behind as she had a steel engine room, and Topsy is beyond. Serenity was the last conversion to moor in this group, so may not have been there in the 1960s.

[Timleech]

In that case, I am not sure about the foreground boat as Darlington was still lived on with a decent conversion in the 70s.

 

 

Just had another look and the boat in the foreground looks to be one of Albert Blundell's, though I'm not sure which. Darlington is behind as she had a steel engine room, and Topsy is beyond. Serenity was the last conversion to moor in this group, so may not have been there in the 1960s.

 

Trying to date my picture from the others on the same film, I reckon probably 1966 or 1967.

 

Tim

 

 

Just had another look and the boat in the foreground looks to be one of Albert Blundell's, though I'm not sure which. Darlington is behind as she had a steel engine room, and Topsy is beyond. Serenity was the last conversion to moor in this group, so may not have been there in the 1960s.

 

It could be 'Martha', I don't know whether he had a boat of that name. I believe his boats were all named after members of his family.

The boat at the rear does look very much like a L&L boat.

 

Tim

[Timleech]

Just had another look and the boat in the foreground looks to be one of Albert Blundell's, though I'm not sure which. Darlington is behind as she had a steel engine room, and Topsy is beyond. Serenity was the last conversion to moor in this group, so may not have been there in the 1960s.

 

Another spanner for the works.

Contemporary with the other picture, I don't remember the precise location but I presume 'RBC' is Rodley Boat Club, and it's on the out-of-town side of Rodley?

 

 

Tim

[Pluto]

Another spanner for the works.

Contemporary with the other picture, I don't remember the precise location but I presume 'RBC' is Rodley Boat Club, and it's on the out-of-town side of Rodley?

 

 

Tim

 

It certainly looks like the boat yard at Rodley. The curved engine room top suggests that it is wooden, so not one of the last four BW boats which had steel cabin tops, and this is reinforced by the shape of rudder and tiller. It also looks like it had wooden timber heads, which suggests a Yorkshire boat, perhaps one the three or four motor boats which carried coal from the Wakefield area to the Aire Valley towns until the early 1960s. The lack of sheer suggests she is an old boat succumbing to hogging.

 

Regarding the Albert Blundell boat, I don't have a full fleet list but Martha isn't included in those I have. However, Albert's daughter has a boat and I'll ask around to see if she has more information.

[Phil Speight]

The main feature of wooden keel construction was that they developed from clinker boats, which is where the Norse connection comes in. If you look at the framing of west-country keels, the spikes holding the planking are driven through the frames and then clenched over, a left over from clinker construction. The stem and stern post was also rebated for the plank ends, some of which were too narrow to be spiked into the apron behind the post. To overcome this, the hooks strengthening the bow and stern were in three sections, one fitting right across the bow. An added advantage of this was that it made the bow much fuller. This type of construction can be found all round the North Sea. On the Irish Sea coast, the boat construction followed carvel technology, the spikes fixing the planks being shorter and not clenched. The shape of the bow was also much finer as the hooks were in two pieces, connected by a knee behind the bow/stern post.

 

Clinker keels disappeared around 1900, but I did find some remains in the River Ouse, just upstream of Goole, where they had been sunk as bank protection. As they are the last remains of boats typical of North Sea coasters, the remains are of particular importance, though they would be difficult to conserve. It is probably more than fifteen years since I recorded them, and don't know their current situation. The remains of several other clinker keels were found at the St Aidans opencast site when the River Aire broke through into the workings, draining the river. They were recorded by the local archaeological group at Castleford, with some of the finds now on display at the Yorkshire Waterways Museum, Goole.

 

 

 

Serenity used to be a house boat at Rodley, just to the north of Leeds, together with two L&LC wooden boats, the Topsy and Darlington IIRC. That would be in the mid-1970s. Around that time, a friend of mine, Chris Topp, lived on Frugality in Leeds basin after fitting her with a steam engine. He later had June, and ex A&CN iron dumb boat, which he rigged at a sailing keel on which we had some interesting trips on the Humber.

It`s all a long time ago. I knew about the one being used as a houseboat at Rodley but I could swear the one at Callis Mill was Serenity - perhaps that`s where she finished up because I wouldn`t have been involved much before the early eighties. What I do remember very clearly is that the restoration project came to sudden end , as did the boat, when a lorry belonging to one of the two authorities involved "accidentally" reversed straight through the boat and totalled it most comprehensively.

[Gary Peacock]

It's a shame that the west country boats are now all but gone when we were kids we used to scrounge trips on Ethel, Gwendoline and their sisters. They were common sites passing our backdoor (Quite literally) on their way to were they were built and maintained at the Hargreaves yard. (Ledgard Bridge)

 

 

I was a bit late for the days of building but it must have been quite an impressive site at the launch.

 

 

Ethel being launched in 1952

 

 

 

Elizabeth B being launched in 1951

 

The picture below is in the boom times in Mirfield for boat building and maintenance not at Ledgard Bridge but at the site at the end of Battyeford cut now occupied by the South Pennine Boat Club.

 

 

Well there are still quite a few sunken examples around if you know where to look but after 30 plus years there probably wont be that much left.

[Gary Peacock]

Now this is a west country boat yet again at Ledgard Bridge with a bit of a twist-

 

 

I don't know anything of her history and she does seem to have been either adapted for this new role or if not possibly for maintenance work on the navigation.

 

I wonder what the HSE and MCA would have to say about her today!

[John Moore]

Hi Phil

I keep asking the question but cannot find an answer.

 

I don't suppose you know what happened to Gwendoline, or Dorothy Pax?

Gwendoline is still at Ellesmere Port, and is still in one piece sat next to Mossdale.

Cheers John

[carlt]

Gwendoline is still at Ellesmere Port, and is still in one piece sat next to Mossdale.

Cheers John

Thank You!

 

Do you know if she's still a "group C" boat ( for disposal) or has she been promoted to a safer division?

 

She appears on my list as "C" but seems to have disappeared, from Tim's, in the first post of this thread.

[John Moore]

Thank You!

 

Do you know if she's still a "group C" boat ( for disposal) or has she been promoted to a safer division?

 

She appears on my list as "C" but seems to have disappeared, from Tim's, in the first post of this thread.

Sorry i took so long to reply, hols. Just had a look on the most recent list, and Gwendoline is a catergory B vessel.

 

Cheers John

[AMModels]

I know this is an old topic but what happened with most of these boats?

I was looking for details on ARIES and see it is still at the museum but now in a worse than ropey state, yet another example of them ignoring the historically important (small ricky) in favour of the shiny and pardon the phrase boring Josher.

Seeing the state of ARIES and how she is being left to rot away exactly the same as the wooden Josher they let go not ten years ago which had far more credence as an important historic boat than again the shiny ones. I am glad Laurence extracted every penny he could get from those involved in the museum, no matter what is said the lack of coherent plans for the important fast fading boats in the museums fleet is a shocking indictment of the management of that place and CRT in general.

WTF is it going to take for the people in charge of that place to realise they are mere custodians and they should make decisions based on need and historical importance rather than which ones will look shiny at rallies so they can dress up like some faux working boatman from the 20's/30's/40's/50's delete as appropriate.

 

I realise this isnt going to do me any favours regarding information from those who feel slighted or that I dont understand but sitting by and watching this happen time and time and time again just isnt an option.

 

rant over

Oh and theyve even left the 'scruffy' ones off the website???!

 

and yes I know the Oh makes me sound welsh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewkw/8618884845/

FYI

[Tiggers]

The reason both Ferret and Shad are being done is because we have received funding from organisations specifically related to them. Mossdale has also just received a large amount of funding and will be coming out soon, there is a proposal at the moment to try and receive funding for George and I believe the next boat after ferret is looking like Merak.

I agree a hell of a lot of mistakes have been made in the past, one of the worst being indiscriminately accepting boats that were on their last legs, but they are attempting to run things around.

Remember this place had been run by volunteers for a long time. Any idea how much it'd cost to restore a wooden boat?

[AMModels]

If my information is correct then it would cost £100k approx if you went to one of the top wooden boat restorers, the museum could do it for less as they would be using volunteers and have no need to make a profit in order to live on.

Why?

What sources were specifically related to the two boats mentioned? Or did you mean the museum touted for funds specifically related to those boats in which case my point is still valid and the museum should have applied for funding for Aries and Merak first along with any number of old wooden boats in dire need of work or of course any of the list of boats scrapped by the museum

Chiltern - wooden josher

Cathead - Crane Barge (1930)

Sapphire - Wooden Double ended BCN day boat
Box boat 260 - a NCB Boat
Aspull - Leeds & Liverpool Ice boat (c1900)
Ethel - West Country Keel, Bow & Stern Ends Only (c1952)
Formalhaut - Narrowboat, Bow & Stern sections only (c1953)
Malta - Motor Narrow boat, Bow Only (c1943)
Minstral - Clinker built dinghy (c1930)
Parry II - BCN Ice boat
Tube boat 22 - BCN day boat
Marple - Icebreaker

 

I realise the management has now changed but if Shad and Ferret are anything to go by then its a case of Same shit, different committee.

 

How many of the former management are still at the museum? Some of these boats went to the museum in half decent shape and it should be understood that boats such as Shad and Ferret would have survived without the museum who already have Mendip as well dont forget, whereas the wooden ones are the most vulnerable and need public funds more than the others.

 

edited to add a much needed K

Edited October 17, 2013 by AMModels

[Tiggers]

Ferret has received funding from the London transport museum, and that was offered to the museum when they took on the boat. Shad benefitted from having Poirot donating money for the upkeep on a regular basis, again, he approached the museum, and mendip (a hugely important boat) was funded by Cadburys due to its links with the Charlie Atkins. Also, the last boat that was restored less you forget was the wooden box boat, which is about to be craned in.

The staff have also changed a lot recently, particularly in the boat yard. Mr Moore (who has contributed here) who has worked here for 29 years as boat maintenance officer has recently left, and Dave Linney has come aboard. Also, obviously, CRT have come aboard, although it is too early to at what impact this will have

[Tiggers]

And you forget that restorations within a museum can sometimes be more expensive as we are duty bound to restore the boats it a traditional manner that they were originally built in, that means taking no short cuts that is so often the case now adays. We also have a duty to use things like timber from sustainable sources only etc which private individuals aren't bound to do.