Narrowboats and the good old USA

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Balliol said:

I don’t remember Sam Springer selling kits, but will stand corrected. Are you sure you are not thinking of Hancock & Lane?

 

Fairly sure, yes. Instead of building myself a Springer, I had a shell done for me by Hancock and Lane. By that stage I'd sussed out the difference!! 

 

Did H&L sell DIY cut out kits for DIY welding then? As I grow older the major memory fails are definitely stacking up...

 

 

 

 

[Ex Brummie]

Some 30 years ago I started to compile a photo collection of Springers that had attracted much D.I.Y. modifications. Many had front cockpit cut outs to ease boarding, some had conservatories built on the front. One had been 'converted to 'Dutch Barge' lines. Many were agreeably enhanced with the front wings made an ornamental features, and some   fitted with window boxes.

I gave up when I was down at my moorings one afternoon on the way home from work, and without my camera. I heard a very distinctive thump thump of what turned out to be a Coventry Victor Twin, openly mounted on the built in front deck of a 40ft'ish Springer, linked up with a hydraulic drive. I decided that my collection was not worth continuing without this example of one of the most used and abused boats on the system.

[Balliol]

Our first narrowboat was a 36’ Springer, purchased privately in 1974 as a bare shell which had been used as a bit of a test bed for steam engines, as I recall on the Severn. It had apparently been fitted with side paddle wheels driven by one steam engine, and a second steam engine drove a conventional propeller for steerage. I never saw these, or any photographs, but the boat still had all the holes in the side for the paddle shafts, paddle wheel support frameworks etc., and a large hatch in the roof, which was access for the boiler and also formed the funnel. By the time we bought it a 1.5 BMC was fitted.

[Scholar Gypsy]

On 03/04/2020 at 11:57, howardang said:

Thank you for the book details & I will hunt it out.

Yes, I do think contaminated ballast water has had a lot to do with the issue. We were around 450ft long, 27ft draft 6900 grt and 10,000 tons dead weight. Large ships for their time, but small compared to the rather more specialised ships of today, and the Seaway was constructed with ships of our size in mind. We specialised, with cars outbound from UK/Europe with grain and aluminium ingots homeward. Rather a coals to Newcastle story, but we even took new Ford cars from Dagenham to Detroit, together with Volkswagens from Germany!  Because 400-500 cars were comparatively light we carried a lot of water ballast, and even in those days we were careful to flush out the tanks with fresh sea water once in deep water mid Atlantic. I was very fortunate in those days to have been through many of the Worlds canals, such as Kiel Canal, Chesapeake and Delaware, Manchester Ship Canal, and the Cape Cod Canal .

 

Forgive me if you have seen any of these before but they are of their time.

The first is a Walter Cronkite film about the building of the Seaway.

The second is a shorter one which I think was aimed at a more general audience but is still worth seeing, and the final one is a time lapse of a passage through the Welland Canal on a Great Lakes vessel, in more recent times.

 

Howard

 

 

 

 

Howard

 

Many thanks - I have finally got around to watching those videos, very evocative!  On the third one - timelapse of the Welland -  I was curious about the device that briefly lowers  across the lock just as the ship comes to a stop, do you know what that was for ??

[CaptSomer]

I run a small marina and boat yard in the States. I have built boats and do a lot of boat repairs. Americans have an interest in canal boats, I have received several inquiries about building a canal type boat for use here on the river systems in the States (Ohio River, Tennessee River, etc.). The US has a brief history with canal boats and I think the modern European canal boat has an allure for many Americans. We no longer have our canal system but we have a great river and ICW system winding all over this beautiful country. Because of our wider, more open rivers I think the question of seaworthiness becomes the major question about whether a canal boat wold work in the US or not. How do canal boats perform in more open waters? How would they handle a large broadside wake from a large powerboat? 

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, CaptSomer said:

I run a small marina and boat yard in the States. I have built boats and do a lot of boat repairs. Americans have an interest in canal boats, I have received several inquiries about building a canal type boat for use here on the river systems in the States (Ohio River, Tennessee River, etc.). The US has a brief history with canal boats and I think the modern European canal boat has an allure for many Americans. We no longer have our canal system but we have a great river and ICW system winding all over this beautiful country. Because of our wider, more open rivers I think the question of seaworthiness becomes the major question about whether a canal boat wold work in the US or not. How do canal boats perform in more open waters? How would they handle a large broadside wake from a large powerboat? 

 

Badly and badly!

 

We often say that the only possible reason to have a narrowboat is so it fits through the 7 foot wide locks that were built on the cheap 200 years ago.  For anywhere else, a "proper" boat is the way forward.

 

Most narrowboats are designed and built for still water in a shallow ditch with a 4mph speed limit, and a more realistic speed of about 2 or 3 mph in many narrow canals.

 

There are a couple of narrowboats that have done coastal crossings, but they were either designed or modified to make them seaworthy and even so only in calm conditions. (Force 3 or lower ISTR)

 

Some of the "Dutch Barge" style replicas are much better boats for river/sea conditions, just be wary of the ones that are only replicas above the waterline!

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, CaptSomer said:

How do canal boats perform in more open waters? How would they handle a large broadside wake from a large powerboat? 

I short :

They don't.

They wouldn't

 

Being only 6' 10" wide they do not take rough water - they will take a little 'bow-on' but they are very tender in roll'

There are more and more 'fat' narrowboats being built (9' - 10' even 12' beam) these handle the water a little better but being flat bottomed and only 24" (many are less) draft they are not really ideal for even our 'little' rivers.

Folk are wanting more space, hence the move away from the 6' square x 70 foot long 'steel tube'.

 

Maube you should consider looking at Dutch built boats that are made for the commercial canals and rivers of Europe - they are more 'boat shaped' and will handle rougher water.

 

A link to a UK builder of 'Dutch Barges'

 

 

https://www.bluewaterboats.co.uk/Dutch-Barges/

 

(No recomendation of them, some of their boats have had serious build quality problems)

Edited November 9, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Wittenham]

On 03/04/2020 at 11:57, howardang said:

[snip]

The second is a shorter one which I think was aimed at a more general audience but is still worth seeing, and the final one is a time lapse of a passage through the Welland Canal on a Great Lakes vessel, in more recent times.

 

 

I grew up just a mile or two from the last lock on the Welland Canal where it meets Lake Ontario [9:10 in the video].  Nice memory! 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Wittenham
added time stamp

[Kudzucraft]

I think most of you clients would change their mind once they saw inside. A widebeam would be much more practical. No reason to be so narrow here. Plus if you building one you don't have to do an exact copy. You could modify the underwater hull shape to work better in these water and still keep the general look. 

 

I know the Tenn. river well.  It is a person choice but if I were going to have on here it would be Dutch Barge. I think they are very good looking boats and would suit these waters pretty well.

[Phoenix_V]

Terry Darlington did it with a narrowboat worth your while to read his book, but you are not restricted to the 7' width of our boats a so called wide beam narrow boat would be better or a Dutch style barge as said above. have a look at the Branson boat kits.

The Dutch make nice steel cruisers which would definitely suit have a look at Linnsen or Pedro.

The European standard for such work is rcd category C but B would be much better.

[magpie patrick]

Mid-Lakes Navigation in Ondonaga do have canal boats for holiday rental - they look to be based on a cross between a narrow boat and an Erie Canal Barge. If I were to rent in NY state I'd be tempted

 

Link below is to a google images search

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=mid-lakes+navigation+houseboat+rentals&safe=strict&rlz=1C1CHBF_enGB886GB886&sxsrf=ALeKk01MntmrTZJBwTB6o92g6qfG6EOnBQ:1605001686830&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQ2KCb2ffsAhXRURUIHVA_D7wQ_AUoA3oECA0QBQ&biw=1366&bih=625#imgrc=kvaugif5zsvURM

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by magpie patrick

[Pluto]

18 hours ago, CaptSomer said:

I run a small marina and boat yard in the States. I have built boats and do a lot of boat repairs. Americans have an interest in canal boats, I have received several inquiries about building a canal type boat for use here on the river systems in the States (Ohio River, Tennessee River, etc.). The US has a brief history with canal boats and I think the modern European canal boat has an allure for many Americans. We no longer have our canal system but we have a great river and ICW system winding all over this beautiful country. Because of our wider, more open rivers I think the question of seaworthiness becomes the major question about whether a canal boat wold work in the US or not. How do canal boats perform in more open waters? How would they handle a large broadside wake from a large powerboat? 

A number of American canals started off as narrow canals, though with locks around 9 or 10 feet wide. Most were enlarged within twenty years of opening, and from photos the boats then used were very much simple floating boxes, with little in the way of curves. The earlier canals may well have used the Durham boat style, which was probably much more suitable to river navigation. Perhaps a 'heritage' boat, suitable for modern use, could be developed from their shape?

[Wittenham]

3 hours ago, Pluto said:

A number of American canals started off as narrow canals, though with locks around 9 or 10 feet wide. Most were enlarged within twenty years of opening, and from photos the boats then used were very much simple floating boxes, with little in the way of curves. The earlier canals may well have used the Durham boat style, which was probably much more suitable to river navigation. Perhaps a 'heritage' boat, suitable for modern use, could be developed from their shape?

yes, the Welland Canal mentioned above is the third such canal. The remains of the other two - mostly filled in - can be found scattered around the city.  They were much more narrow.  If memory serves, they are still wider than the UK canals [based on going swimming in some of them].

[Sea Dog]

I visited a nice section of canal in Richmond, Virginia. It bypasses the falls on the James River, linking to another river I don't recall the name of, and was intended to form waterway link to the Ohio. Some bloke called George Washington was involved at the inception and was apparently quite keen on the idea of canals. Not sure what happened to him as I don't recall seeing any of his canal work over here...

 

[CaptSomer]

23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Maube you should consider looking at Dutch built boats that are made for the commercial canals and rivers of Europe - they are more 'boat shaped' and will handle rougher water.

 

A link to a UK builder of 'Dutch Barges'

 

 

https://www.bluewaterboats.co.uk/Dutch-Barges/

 

I agree. I was thinking that the cal boat would have to be "Americanized" to better suit our more open waters (rivers, bays and such). I guess the Dutch Barge style is more like what I was thinking. 

[ditchcrawler]

35 minutes ago, CaptSomer said:

I agree. I was thinking that the cal boat would have to be "Americanized" to better suit our more open waters (rivers, bays and such). I guess the Dutch Barge style is more like what I was thinking. 

or like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_and_Ohio_Canal#/media/File:Chesapeake_and_Ohio_Canal.jpg

[mrsmelly]

On 09/11/2020 at 15:34, TheBiscuits said:

 

Badly and badly!

 

We often say that the only possible reason to have a narrowboat is so it fits through the 7 foot wide locks that were built on the cheap 200 years ago.  For anywhere else, a "proper" boat is the way forward.

 

Most narrowboats are designed and built for still water in a shallow ditch with a 4mph speed limit, and a more realistic speed of about 2 or 3 mph in many narrow canals.

 

There are a couple of narrowboats that have done coastal crossings, but they were either designed or modified to make them seaworthy and even so only in calm conditions. (Force 3 or lower ISTR)

 

Some of the "Dutch Barge" style replicas are much better boats for river/sea conditions, just be wary of the ones that are only replicas above the waterline!

Amen to that!!

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, CaptSomer said:

I agree. I was thinking that the cal boat would have to be "Americanized" to better suit our more open waters (rivers, bays and such). I guess the Dutch Barge style is more like what I was thinking. 

They would need lithium, to feed the ice maker, coffee machine, washing machine, tumble dryer, power shower, American fridge , freezer, microwave, induction hob and double oven,  course perhaps there are marinas with shorepower ten miles, not sure.

A good BBQ is not cheap, but  an essential, probably a pair of tiny electric bikes or smart car on the tug deck.

Edited November 10, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

They would need lithium, to feed the ice maker, coffee machine, washing machine, tumble dryer, power shower, American fridge , freezer, microwave, induction hob and double oven,  course perhaps there are marinas with shorepower ten miles, not sure.

 

 

Don't forget Air-Con

All the US boats* I've seen have a generator on board

 

* obviously not things like Bayliner sports / day boats

 

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A good BBQ is not cheap,

 Our Magma BBQ on the Cat was about £500

[Kudzucraft]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:24, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Don't forget Air-Con

All the US boats* I've seen have a generator on board

 

 If you going to live it on and Cruise the Tennessee River, yup! 

Summer temps of 90 degrees (32-33 C) are normal and add to that 70% or higher humidity.  It would be like living in a over when sitting still.

[Marsha]

I wonder how much you know of America we ha rivers and streams. Streams not sure you could TSA narrow boat on . Rivers it would be fantastic. Don’t know where the tiny house movement came from ? Narrow boats would be another small place to live in that movement. Some of us like smaller homes . I grew up in a small home with 2 brothers and parents . I had a single room brothers had double. Parents the same . Retiring to a narrow boat would be heaven.