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BOLINDER ENGINES


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He still owned it in the spring of this year, and had decided to revive it (and his enthusiasm) after several years of neglect as he'd been busy elsewhere.

 

Have any of the little Bolinder twin semidiesels survived in (or even out of)boats? I remember one going into the wooden Jupiter in the late 1960s, but I don't think it stayed in for very long, I'd gathered that they weren't the company's greatest product. Is that the W series you mention?

 

Tim

Tim, they were I think termed as the "lightweight" engine. You are correct not a great product from what I have heard. The are rather unnatractive to look at with everything enclosed thye had a gearbox and a centrifugal governor and were made to be much higher revving to be physically smaller, so none of the endearing Bolinder features either. Ex FMC "Penguin" has one fitted to my knowledge. I think a few more are floating around. I know of a couple not in boats. They were more popular in Holland. I have come across a few there. I never bought one though because I think you would struggle to find spares and are sufficiently different in their engineering to make fabrication and repair of parts costly.

 

I am very glad to hear Steve kept the TAY. I love that boat and I hope he does have another go. I'll give him a ring now I know.

 

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

I thought I'd cornered the UK market on these!

 

I have a Bolinder fitted in my all steel 35' cruiser stern narrow boat. My Bolinder is over a 100 years old.

I don't always keep it there, it often lives in the kitchen at home, but I always fit it to my boat especially if I'm going anywhere near a rally.

 

Mine operates off a handle, it has a terrific throw on it and has to be well secured otherwise if it comes loose there's a hell of a mess.

 

bolinder.jpg

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Can anyone answer some basic questions about vintage engines from a me (as a relatively inexperienced boater) please....?

 

Is the uniquely attractive sound a Bolinder makes purely down to the fact that they are single cylinder engines, or do other single cylinders sound different?

 

ARE there any other single cylinder alternatives to a Bolinder out there that could power a narrowboat? I gather there is a Lister JP1 for example (also rated at 9hp). Any others?

 

What max RPM does a single cylinder Bolinder run at?

 

Thanks, Mike

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About 5 years ago I was shown round a new n/b at Barry Hawkins' yard. It was quite a big 'un, about 60 feet and typically sturdy, and Hawkins' had installed a restored Gardner 1L2 in it. Barry's son (I think) told me that it produced ample power to drive even this quite large, heavy craft. Production of the multi-cylinder L2s ceased sometime in the 1950s (this date is from memory, I am sure that someone will be able to offer an accurate date) but the 1L2, a "laboratory engine", continued in production for years afterwards, so there are examples around which aren't so ancient.

By the way, it emitted a lovely rounded satisfying noise, but Hawkins Jr. and I could carry on a conversation in the engine room while the beast was running, without raising our voices. Thank God I did not have my cheque book with me that day.

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Can anyone answer some basic questions about vintage engines from a me (as a relatively inexperienced boater) please....?

 

My understanding it is down as much to the "hit and miss" governor arrangements as anything else, which means that on some cycles it fires, and on others it doesn't.

Is the uniquely attractive sound a Bolinder makes purely down to the fact that they are single cylinder engines, or do other single cylinders sound different?

 

As above! A more modern single cylinder engine will probably idle a lot faster, and more regularly, but other old ones sound very "Bolinder like".

ARE there any other single cylinder alternatives to a Bolinder out there that could power a narrowboat? I gather there is a Lister JP1 for example (also rated at 9hp). Any others?

 

There is a boat near us with what I gather is a near unique "Seffle" engine. Rarer than a Bolinder, and equally impressive. (The boat is the wooden boat "Severn").

 

For much newer engines the single cylinder Sabb is popular (about 9HP ??). Also there is the Ducati engines widely fitted to budget boats. In theory there are single cylinder versions of the small Listers (SL1, SR1, etc), or of the Armstrong Siddley (AS1) but I've never encountered one in a canal boat. I'm sure they must exist.

 

What max RPM does a single cylinder Bolinder run at?

 

Less than 500 rpm for most of the models, I think - typically 450 rpm ??, (but I may be way out!). God knows about idle speed, though!

Thanks, Mike

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EDIT

 

To keep Cheshire~Rose happy, I suppose I should offer the option of a

 

Kelvin K1 - 22 BMP 750 RPM

 

Not quite as much brass to polish, but should suffice, one hopes.

 

Oh and that appears to be just 4 litres for it's single cylinder, (so not as much as the typical near 6 litres swept by a canal boat Bolinder).

 

You do need to make sure the back of your boat is well attached to the front, with these!

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Can anyone answer some basic questions about vintage engines from a me (as a relatively inexperienced boater) please....?

 

My understanding it is down as much to the "hit and miss" governor arrangements as anything else, which means that on some cycles it fires, and on others it doesn't.

 

Is the uniquely attractive sound a Bolinder makes purely down to the fact that they are single cylinder engines, or do other single cylinders sound different?

 

As above! A more modern single cylinder engine will probably idle a lot faster, and more regularly, but other old ones sound very "Bolinder like".

 

ARE there any other single cylinder alternatives to a Bolinder out there that could power a narrowboat? I gather there is a Lister JP1 for example (also rated at 9hp). Any others?

 

There is a boat near us with what I gather is a near unique "Seffle" engine. Rarer than a Bolinder, and equally impressive. (The boat is the wooden boat "Severn").

 

For much newer engines the single cylinder Sabb is popular (about 9HP ??). Also there is the Ducati engines widely fitted to budget boats. In theory there are single cylinder versions of the small Listers (SL1, SR1, etc), or of the Armstrong Siddley (AS1) but I've never encountered one in a canal boat. I'm sure they must exist.

 

What max RPM does a single cylinder Bolinder run at?

 

Less than 500 rpm for most of the models, I think - typically 450 rpm ??, (but I may be way out!). God knows about idle speed, though!

 

The Bolinder sound is a combination of the hit & miss governor and the softer exhaust 'chuff' of a slow 2-stroke exhausting through cylinder ports via a big empty expansion box. The Lister JP marine (4-stroke) uses a similar sort of expansion box and also has a distinctive fairly 'soft' exhaust.

Some single-motor working boats were fitted with Armstrong singles or Bolinders 1051 cold-start 4-stroke singles as replacements for 9hp Bolinders, the Armstrongs weren't really adequate for the job though they should be fine in a smaller pleasure boat (I know of one, the owner is very happy with it).

A 4-stroke single doesn't sound an awful lot different from its 2-cylinder version, as in nearly all 2-cyl engines the cylinders fire 180 degrees apart on the crank rotation, sounding as a single beat except at very low speeds, and then there is a gap of 540 degrees before the next exhaust. the perceived 'speed' of the exhaust is the same for 1- and 2- cylinder versions at the same rpm.

 

450rpm is the speed usually quoted for 15hp Bolinders, I believe the 9hp ran rather faster. If you run a 15 bhp engine at 500 rpm with a prop designed for 450 rpm, and 'do the maths' as one member is fond of saying, it'll be developing near enough 20 bhp. The 15hp Bolinders, at least some of them, were a derated 20hp though I don't know whether the derating was a simple governor adjustment. I used to have a little Seffle which ran up to about 850 rpm, but it seems to me that the 2-stroke hot bulb/semi diesel system is much happier at the lower speed.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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Without wishing to paraphrase anybody, in the early days of internal combustion engines one of the more difficult things was to control the speed of an engine, the obvious way to do this was to regulate the amount of fuel going through the injector, easier said than done, it was many years before this could be reliably accomplished but there was another method, that was to leave the engine on a fixed fuel metering and simply to use a less sophisticated governor to totally cut off the fuel supply when a certain speed was reached and reinstate it when the speed dropped back..

 

Many types of fixed industrial and agricultural engines use this 'Hit or Miss' method.

 

Many early aircraft petrol engines had similar arrangements.. Carburetters had other problems with regulation although variable jets and airways could be used there were complications, for example with carburetter icing, it was found this could be reduced by using a similar 'flat-out' or 'off' technique as can be heard when a veteran aircraft is taxiing.

Edited by John Orentas
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Without wishing to paraphrase anybody, in the early days of internal combustion engines one of the more difficult things was to control the speed of an engine, the obvious way to do this was to regulate the amount of fuel going through the injector

 

It was not only important to regulate the amount of fuel but also how the fuel is injected- as an aerosol spray or a stream. Hence the presence of a third control – the oil rod (in addition to the usual reverse and the governor controls). The purpose of the oil rod is to control the flow of fuel according to the load on the engine. Under light load conditions the fuel is whirled around grooves in the sprayer (a sort of primitive, low pressure injector) and enters the combustion chamber in an atomised state in the form of a cone-shaped spray which hits the hot walls of the ignition chamber and is ignited. This is the setting for starting and no load running. When the engine load increases the sprayer is opened and the diesel enters the chamber in a thin stream. The engine then works as a full diesel engine.

The owner’s manual to the 25 hp Seffle I once had says, “the setting of the sprayer may seem unnecessarily complicated to a beginner, but he will soon find that this is a very valuable means of making the engine run to the best advantage.”

Without constantly adjusting the sprayer the engine either ran lumpily or smokily. The engine was great fun and blew terrific smoke rings. However, I’ve read that these engines were only about 12% efficient. It certainly used much more fuel than my current 44 hp Kelvin. Much more of a consideration these days.

Edited by koukouvagia
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It was not only important to regulate the amount of fuel but also how the fuel is injected- as an aerosol spray or a stream. Hence the presence of a third control – the oil rod (in addition to the usual reverse and the governor controls). The purpose of the oil rod is to control the flow of fuel according to the load on the engine. Under light load conditions the fuel is whirled around grooves in the sprayer (a sort of primitive, low pressure injector) and enters the combustion chamber in an atomised state in the form of a cone-shaped spray which hits the hot walls of the ignition chamber and is ignited. This is the setting for starting and no load running. When the engine load increases the sprayer is opened and the diesel enters the chamber in a thin stream. The engine then works as a full diesel engine.

The owner’s manual to the 25 hp Seffle I once had says, “the setting of the sprayer may seem unnecessarily complicated to a beginner, but he will soon find that this is a very valuable means of making the engine run to the best advantage.”

Without constantly adjusting the sprayer the engine either ran lumpily or smokily. The engine was great fun and blew terrific smoke rings. However, I’ve read that these engines were only about 12% efficient. It certainly used much more fuel than my current 44 hp Kelvin. Much more of a consideration these days.

You are not quite correct in your description of the oil rod or variable spray pattern. The reason for the variable spray is to allow a very fine spray for starting and a wetter more direct spray for running which helps to remove the issue of pre-ignition which is a big problem in hot-bulb engines. On the earlier model (E-type) water was injected with the air to keep combustion temperatures down. This wasn't succesfull as it caused wear and inefficiency. In a bolinder as sprayer is backed off making the jet more direct it ceases to hit the hot-bulb and instead incresingly vaporises on the crown of the piston and of course all ppints in between offer a combination. This means that pre-ignition is kept to a minimum and a cleaner burn is achieved. Bolinders can't operate as a full diesel running purely off compression to ignite the charge in the cylinder. The compression ratio is too low 8:1 from memory and they always operate as a vaporising engine because the pump and sprayer can't stand the pressure that would be required to operate as a full diesel. You can stall a bolinder by opening the oil rod up to a point where the spray is so wet that it will not vaporise sufficently to combust.Seffles were always less sensitive to the oil rod as they ran at a higher compression ratio and I think had a correspondingly higher pressure fuel system.

 

As for the sound of a Bolinder it is cetrainly pretty unique. The governor system comes from an American engine made by Meitz and Weiss. They produced the first 2-storke hot-bulb using this style of hit and miss governor. I do think though that all the 2-stroke engines sound great with that very hollow thump produced by such a large volume cylinder. I used to love going down the canal when the air was very still and the low resonance of the exhaust from the hot-bulb Petter filled the area arround youas the boat travelled through the water. They can't be beaten. Not for everyone but if you don't mind putting in a little more time than a turn key job you will never regret it.

 

John

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You are not quite correct in your description of the oil rod or variable spray pattern. The reason for the variable spray is to allow a very fine spray for starting and a wetter more direct spray for running which helps to remove the issue of pre-ignition which is a big problem in hot-bulb engines.

Interesting, I’d not heard about the problem of pre-ignition before and the Seffle manual makes no reference to it. However, reading the manual again, I suppose avoiding pre-ignition is implied. Seffle describe the action of the sprayer as follows:

“By means of adjusting the sprayer it is possible to regulate the temperature in the cylinders and the combustion. When the sprayer cylinder is screwed down…the fuel is injected in a very wide spray. Part of the fuel then strikes the hot walls of the ignition chamber and is ignited. This is the setting of the sprayer for no-load running. The heavier the load the smaller the part of the fuel that needs to strike the hot walls in order to ignite. The sprayer should consequently be opened wider when the load is put on the engine…. With full load on the engine the fuel is injected in the form of a thin jet which does not strike any hot wall. The engine then works as a full Diesel engine....It takes a very short time to learn how to manipulate the sprayer, simply by keeping in mind that if the sprayer is too wide open, with a light load, the running will be irregular, and that if it is not sufficiently open, with a heavy load, the engine develops insufficient power and gives off a smoky exhaust."

 

Unlike the Bolinder, the Seffle has a centrifugal governor. Hence the sound of the Seffle is regular.

Edited by koukouvagia
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Interesting, I’d not heard about the problem of pre-ignition before and the Seffle manual makes no reference to it. However, reading the manual again, I suppose avoiding pre-ignition is implied. Seffle describe the action of the sprayer as follows:

“By means of adjusting the sprayer it is possible to regulate the temperature in the cylinders and the combustion. When the sprayer cylinder is screwed down…the fuel is injected in a very wide spray. Part of the fuel then strikes the hot walls of the ignition chamber and is ignited. This is the setting of the sprayer for no-load running. The heavier the load the smaller the part of the fuel that needs to strike the hot walls in order to ignite. The sprayer should consequently be opened wider when the load is put on the engine…. With full load on the engine the fuel is injected in the form of a thin jet which does not strike any hot wall. The engine then works as a full Diesel engine....It takes a very short time to learn how to manipulate the sprayer, simply by keeping in mind that if the sprayer is too wide open, with a light load, the running will be irregular, and that if it is not sufficiently open, with a heavy load, the engine develops insufficient power and gives off a smoky exhaust."

 

Unlike the Bolinder, the Seffle has a centrifugal governor. Hence the sound of the Seffle is regular.

 

 

I wonder how much of that description on combustion was guesswork by Seffle. How could they know what was happening in the cylinder during combustion? No knock sensors, accelerometers, glass pistons, high speed cameras or that stuff in those days.

 

Richard

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I wonder how much of that description on combustion was guesswork by Seffle. How could they know what was happening in the cylinder during combustion? No knock sensors, accelerometers, glass pistons, high speed cameras or that stuff in those days.

 

Richard

 

Most of it is accepted as 'how a semidiesel works'

People were just as clever in the past, even if they didn't have the technology we have today.

 

Tim

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Most of it is accepted as 'how a semidiesel works'

People were just as clever in the past, even if they didn't have the technology we have today.

 

Tim

 

I agree entirely about people being as clever in the past. There isn't a lot of evolution happening within a century (no matter what my teenage sons think). Even so, I guess that Seffle found something that worked and then all discussed it until they had a plausible explanation, rather than being able to know that it was true. For instance, wouldn't the wider pattern give better atomisation, and wouldn't the heavy load produce hotter conditions?

 

But then I'm guessing with far less knowledge than Seffle ever had. An interesting bit of speculation, nothing more.

 

Richard

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I agree entirely about people being as clever in the past. There isn't a lot of evolution happening within a century (no matter what my teenage sons think). Even so, I guess that Seffle found something that worked and then all discussed it until they had a plausible explanation, rather than being able to know that it was true. For instance, wouldn't the wider pattern give better atomisation, and wouldn't the heavy load produce hotter conditions?

 

But then I'm guessing with far less knowledge than Seffle ever had. An interesting bit of speculation, nothing more.

 

Richard

 

I have the idea that it was Bolinders who pioneered the adjustable sprayer, others followed. My little Sabb (much later) has a sort of mask which swings across the front of the sprayer and diverts the spray to one side, on to a hot spot.

 

Tim

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I have the idea that it was Bolinders who pioneered the adjustable sprayer, others followed. My little Sabb (much later) has a sort of mask which swings across the front of the sprayer and diverts the spray to one side, on to a hot spot.

 

Tim

I have the idea that it was Bolinders who pioneered the adjustable sprayer, others followed. My little Sabb (much later) has a sort of mask which swings across the front of the sprayer and diverts the spray to one side, on to a hot spot.

 

Tim

As far as I am aware the variable spayer was first pioneered by Heinrich Lanz, Manheim, Germany. They produced tractors with them on the engines whilst Bolinder were still using the water injection. There were several methods employed by different firms to alter the spray pattern and direction. One of the Kromhouts I had used a system where as you moved the lever to alter the sprayer it closed the hole spraying directly into the ignition tube and opened two other holes which sprayed onto the walls of the cylinder head. It took me quite a while to work out what was going on before I could set it up to run properly. Gardners in the VT engines had a sprayer where the pateern was constant but the tip rotates from spraying up into the hot-bulb to down into the cylinder. I don't think any were done to avoid patentr infringments at that stage it was more that they could champion their own method as the best. Many manufacturers of course didn't bother at all and had a fixed spray pattern and still worked perfectly well.

 

As far as a lack of science and the level of guess work involved you would be suprised at what was worked out. I have charts from academic papers sponsored by manufacturers showing combustion temperatures, pressures and relative performances. These guys were clever. It wasn't all done on the back of a fag packet!

 

John

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.......As far as a lack of science and the level of guess work involved you would be suprised at what was worked out. I have charts from academic papers sponsored by manufacturers showing combustion temperatures, pressures and relative performances. These guys were clever. It wasn't all done on the back of a fag packet!

 

John

Got to agree with you there John. I have some old marine engineering documents that give all sorts of calculations with regard to theoretical performance and actual results from test bed trials etc.

 

In many cases, the only thing that let them down was the slower development of the materials that they had to work with. If the metallurgists could have kept up - who knows where we would be now.

 

Hats off to them all :lol:

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