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Northern G.U. gates - connected ever?


Derek R.

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So 10 pairs out of a total of 98 pairs in commission at the time.

 

Paul H

 

Hi Paul. Please can you explain the 98 pairs bit. Were there only 196 boats working the canals in 1944? Surely I must have misunderstood this bit.

 

Richard

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In September 1944, a "Grand Union Manning List" gives the following boats manned by trainees:

 

Antony & Alphons (Miss McPhee)

Atlas & Capella (Miss Martin)

Capricorn & Cleopatra (Miss French)

Ceres & Cetus (Miss Boughton-Leigh)

Deimos & Vela (Miss Strachan)

Phobus & Moon (Miss Trevor)

Sun & Dipper (Miss Harper)

Ascot & Crater (Miss Hull-Smith)

Battersea & Uttoxeter (Miss Gayford)

Bognor & Dodona (Miss Ramsey)

 

So 10 pairs out of a total of 98 pairs in commission at the time.

.

In addition Hydra & Crux were operated by a Mrs Cox who although undoubtedly a woman does not have the indicative letter W after her name as the others do. She could have been a trainee and the W is missed off the list but could equally be a widow from boating stock.

 

Paul H.

 

That's interesting, to link in with that I have -

Daphne French, trainer using Capricorn and Cleopatra

Miss Martin - Frankie Campbell-Martin

Cicely, a NZ girl I have on Hercules & Cetus

Sonia South (later Smith/Rolt) and her two friends Chattie Salaman, and Meriol Trevor, all three connected with the theatre - Phobos & Moon

Audrey; Evelyn Hunt & Anne (well respected) may well have crewed Sun & Dipper

 

Kit Gayford (trainer) used Battersea & Uttoxeter, but Pavo for a while too

Molly Traill was the second original trainer with Kit, and left to train girls on the FMC fleet in Birmingham, being replaced at Hayes by Daphne French.

 

Of the other names I have;

Wendy

'The Basher' - both left after first trip

The 'Dresden Chinas' - two girls who Sunbathed a lot, didn't last

Rosalie & Josephine - left part way through first trip having been iced up somewhere

One, who waited in the back cabin waiting to be shown the 'accommodation' and who I suspect left that night (or early next a.m.)

Margaret Ridout (Cornish)

Emma Smith (Miss Hull-Smith?)

Susan Woolfitt

Susan Blood

Virginia Strauss

Billie

Olga Kevelos - who in 1948 went motorcycle racing and became works rider for several British and foreign factories, winning two International Six Day Gold medals

Helen Skyrme (There was a Helen who insisted on wearing gloves - perhaps?)

Eileen - a former hairdresser, tough little boater

Avril Scott-Moncrieff - crewed on Alphons

Jean Peters

Kay

Miranda Pemberton-Pigott

Daphne March of Worcester, steerer of Heather Bell and who introduce Kit to canal boats

Bridget

Rosheen

Jill

Mary

A pipe smoking trainee in photo but un-named (Amateur Boatwomen)

Nancy Smith (Miss Hull Smith?) and her mate -

Margaret on the Leeds & Liverpool -

And others!

 

Those names in Blue attended a reunion at Rickmansworth in 1992. There may have been others, but their names are not mentioned.

 

Alan asks about a crew of two - it may have happened, and certainly did when one of the three took ill, but planned that way - unlikely I think.

 

I remembered (the then gorgeous) Emma Smith didn't write under her real name and a quick google turned up that she was Elspeth Hallsmith (or more likely Hall-Smith.) She still appears to be going strong according to the Guardian.

 

I imagine the shock to the canal community wasn't entirely that they were women but because they were "posh." They seemed to be mainly independently-minded boarding school types - the average woman at the time would probably not even contemplated such a lifestyle.

 

Somewhere (Waterway's World?) there is a photo of a dozen or so trainees on the roof and gunnel of the motor Ascot (from where I remember the coquetish Miss Smith) which identifies many of the women - but I can't find it at the moment.

 

I haven't found any evidence that my own boat Capricorn did much carrying, if at all, other than with the trainees. In fact with the GUCCC never having more than about 100 manned pairs at any one time, most of the Star Class were generally laid up and the Town Class boats run in preference. Presumably it was felt that the lower-sided Star Class boats were easier for the women to work.

 

Paul H

 

Paul H

 

Hi Paul. Please can you explain the 98 pairs bit. Were there only 196 boats working the canals in 1944? Surely I must have misunderstood this bit.

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard,

 

To clarify - In 1944 the Grand Union Canal Carrying Co were only operating 98 pairs (about half their fleet) due to manning problems. This number doesn't include the other carriers such as Fellows Morton & Clayton, Barlows and others who also operated on the Grand Union - not to mention the various carriers elsewhere on the system.

 

Paul H

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Somewhere (Waterway's World?) there is a photo of a dozen or so trainees on the roof and gunnel of the motor Ascot (from where I remember the coquetish Miss Smith) which identifies many of the women - but I can't find it at the moment.

This one ?

 

group.JPG

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(snip)

Somewhere (Waterway's World?) there is a photo of a dozen or so trainees on the roof and gunnel of the motor Ascot (from where I remember the coquetish Miss Smith) which identifies many of the women - but I can't find it at the moment.

(snip)

 

Paul H

 

They are here Which one is Emma?

 

Ah-ha Touché! I'll guess third from right.

Edited by Derek R.
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They are here Which one is Emma?

 

Ah-ha Touché!

Yes that's the picture - I've seen it several times but only once fully captioned.

 

Emma (Elspeth) is 2nd from the right. Hands off, I saw her first. OK she's 85 now but I've always liked posh totty.

 

Paul H

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Pictures in Idle Women feature

 

Mary Andrew, (I don't know if that's the Mary you have).

and

"Mrs Evans"

 

In fact these two, plus Susan Blood from your list, are pictured on Capricorn & Cleopatra in '44, so I assume these three trained together.

Edited by alan_fincher
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Hi Richard,

 

To clarify - In 1944 the Grand Union Canal Carrying Co were only operating 98 pairs (about half their fleet) due to manning problems. This number doesn't include the other carriers such as Fellows Morton & Clayton, Barlows and others who also operated on the Grand Union - not to mention the various carriers elsewhere on the system.

 

Paul H

 

Thanks Paul, that makes sense.

 

Richard

 

So, how many boats were working on the system in 1944??

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They are here Which one is Emma?

 

Ah-ha Touché! I'll guess third from right.

Yes, I thought third from right had the edge over second from right, (with apologies to Miss Smith if she is alive to read this) :lol:

 

According to "Troubled Water" Emma Smith is second from right, and Stella is on her right, (I assume that means to the left of her from the photographer's viewpoint).

 

Olga is on the far left, and Daphne French just behind, (presumably part obscured?)

 

Is Stella another one for your list, or do you have her?

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More from the pictures in Idle Women.

 

Already mentioned have been Miss McPhee and a Cicely.

 

These may well be Cicely Ramsay and Margery McPhee, particularly as Alphons is the butty they are pictured with. The motor, however is Alcor.

 

No date for the photo, which is at Longford on the Coventry.

 

As Paul has said, there seems to be far more use of Star than Town class boats

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Yes, I thought third from right had the edge over second from right, (with apologies to Miss Smith if she is alive to read this) :lol:

 

According to "Troubled Water" Emma Smith is second from right, and Stella is on her right, (I assume that means to the left of her from the photographer's viewpoint).

 

Olga is on the far left, and Daphne French just behind, (presumably part obscured?)

 

Is Stella another one for your list, or do you have her?

 

Ah! No - haven't got Stella. And one of the un-named rapid departures may be a Vivienne.

I didn't have Margery McPhee either, though I found a Margaret.

 

From Kits Amateur Boatwomen, I also read that early on after Kit had got some experience with buttying with the Sibleys, the decision was made between the two trainers; Molly and Kit, to go it alone by splitting the trainees they had between two boats, which meant a pair crewed by just two. This seemed possible as both the trainees they had with them; Rosheen and Bridget, had picked it up well, and were all for it. Bridget stayed with Molly on Bainton & Saltly, Rosheen with Kit on Battersea and Uttoxeter - at least for a while. Edit: Reading on, this was short lived as they took on two new trainees each, making eight on two pairs, and a bit chaotic.

 

Two others at the reunion I see were Virginia Strauss and Avril Scott-Moncrieff - that makes the six.

 

More: Jean, Kay and Miranda worked Astrea & Corolla, and another name or nick-name Jean speaks of is 'Slatty'.

Edited by Derek R.
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I remembered (the then gorgeous) Emma Smith didn't write under her real name and a quick google turned up that she was Elspeth Hallsmith (or more likely Hall-Smith.) She still appears to be going strong according to the Guardian.

(snip)

Paul H

 

I wonder if the name listed as Hull-Smith, is in fact Hall-Smith, and maybe Elspeth - all the same Emma Smith?

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Derek,

 

It looks like Susan Wolfitt's "Idle Women" would add quite a few extra forenames to your list, (although possibly not many more surnames).

 

I must admit I found it not the best read I ever had, so I'm not volunteering to go through it again.

 

For example she trains with Kit Gayford alongside a Vera, and for a while "Mother McCrae", (who doesn't survive long).

 

Mentioned much later are Iris & Rene.

 

I'm sure there are more.

 

I suspect Susan Wolfitt was unusual on insisting on working during school term time only - might have made life difficult if they all did that!

 

Alan

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Derek,

 

One futher thing to bear in mind if trying to piece together the Idle Women from published works.

 

Susan Wolfitt at least chooses sometimes to protect the identity of a trainee by phrases like "I shall call her Ruth".

 

It's possible the other authors may also have disguised names, but not put in their text that they have done so.

 

One thing I noticed, Susan Woolfit says at some point "There were only ever two of us called Susan", so if that's true any reference to Susan is either Susan Woolfit, or Susan Blood, I think

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Derek,

 

One futher thing to bear in mind if trying to piece together the Idle Women from published works.

 

Susan Wolfitt at least chooses sometimes to protect the identity of a trainee by phrases like "I shall call her Ruth".

 

It's possible the other authors may also have disguised names, but not put in their text that they have done so.

 

One thing I noticed, Susan Woolfit says at some point "There were only ever two of us called Susan", so if that's true any reference to Susan is either Susan Woolfit, or Susan Blood, I think

 

Had a chat on the phone with Mrs Jean Peters this evening. I asked her if she knew how many women trainees actually went through the training process (not necessarily all of it) very quickly she replied around three hundred. She made some sketches of various items during her years as a trainee, and said the Imperial War Museum held some, but she had some at home. Very interested, I suggested she took them along to a local library for copying and forwarding, this she will do. Jean is going to go through my notes and will make comments, then send them back. Jean is still certain there was some sort of interconnecting device on some of the gates, but cannot remember which ones, or whether they were a failed experiment, suggested Sonia might know. Still waiting to hear from an archivist at Waterways on that one. And yes, 40' shafts is wrong, probably 20'.

 

I asked her about the names of her fellow trainees being changed for anonymity "Oh no, I used their real names." She also confirmed that she only knew of two Susans. I fancy this may be amongst the girls that stayed the course, and not the three hundred!

 

Be interesting to see if Sonia will add anything.

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Ah - yes! That was something I was going to canvas you all for. Just how long was a long shaft? I have a 12'6" and a couple more feet would be better, but better still would be an 18'. What is the norm for a decent shaft nowadays, come to that - what was back then? Forty foot (if you could manage one) would probably shaft off the bottom in RCD! You'd be poking factory windows out with one of them . . .

 

Another example of 'fourteen' being heard as 'forty'?

 

I have posted a 1905 postcard on my gallery site which shows a Severn Boatman with his shaft on the 6 foot deep rock bottom which sugests it is 18 to 20 feet long. A rare 'sailing' narrow boat.

The 'sweeps' on Droitwich Salt Trows were 22 feet long, used for rowing when the wind fell.

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I have posted a 1905 postcard on my gallery site which shows a Severn Boatman with his shaft on the 6 foot deep rock bottom which sugests it is 18 to 20 feet long. A rare 'sailing' narrow boat.

The 'sweeps' on Droitwich Salt Trows were 22 feet long, used for rowing when the wind fell.

 

Thanks Max, around 20' seems favourite. My 14' is barely adequate when needed, something the length of a standard scaffold pole (21' I believe). Even Mrs P. thought forty was a bit much, must have been wrong.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 8 years later...

That's interesting, to link in with that I have -

Daphne French, trainer using Capricorn and Cleopatra

Miss Martin - Frankie Campbell-Martin

Cicely, a NZ girl I have on Hercules & Cetus

Sonia South (later Smith/Rolt) and her two friends Chattie Salaman, and Meriol Trevor, all three connected with the theatre - Phobos & Moon

Audrey; Evelyn Hunt & Anne (well respected) may well have crewed Sun & Dipper

 

Kit Gayford (trainer) used Battersea & Uttoxeter, but Pavo for a while too

Molly Traill was the second original trainer with Kit, and left to train girls on the FMC fleet in Birmingham, being replaced at Hayes by Daphne French.

 

Of the other names I have;

Wendy

'The Basher' - both left after first trip

The 'Dresden Chinas' - two girls who Sunbathed a lot, didn't last

Rosalie & Josephine - left part way through first trip having been iced up somewhere

One, who waited in the back cabin waiting to be shown the 'accommodation' and who I suspect left that night (or early next a.m.)

Margaret Ridout (Cornish)

Emma Smith (Miss Hull-Smith?)

Susan Woolfitt

Susan Blood

Virginia Strauss

Billie

Olga Kevelos - who in 1948 went motorcycle racing and became works rider for several British and foreign factories, winning two International Six Day Gold medals

Helen Skyrme (There was a Helen who insisted on wearing gloves - perhaps?)

Eileen - a former hairdresser, tough little boater

Avril Scott-Moncrieff - crewed on Alphons

Jean Peters

Kay

Miranda Pemberton-Pigott

Daphne March of Worcester, steerer of Heather Bell and who introduce Kit to canal boats

Bridget

Rosheen

Jill

Mary

A pipe smoking trainee in photo but un-named (Amateur Boatwomen)

Nancy Smith (Miss Hull Smith?) and her mate -

Margaret on the Leeds & Liverpool -

And others!

 

Those names in Blue attended a reunion at Rickmansworth in 1992. There may have been others, but their names are not mentioned.

 

Alan asks about a crew of two - it may have happened, and certainly did when one of the three took ill, but planned that way - unlikely I think.

 

I have resurrected this very old post because it has the only mention I can find of Avril Scott-Moncrieff as an IW.

 

I would be grateful if Derek or anyone else could point me towards any further mention of or information about Avril and the scheme. I cannot recall her being mentioned in any of the popular accounts that I have read. Is it possible that she is there under a pseudonym?

 

NB The correct name is, I believe, Averil but the two seem to be generally interchangeable.

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Nothing I can add to that Rupert bear, all the information I gleaned came largely from Jean Peters recollections through the Narrow Boat magazine website, apart from the chat I had to Mrs. Peters over the phone. I never did get a reply after I sent a few of my notes, neither have the BW archive holders acknowledged my approaches for more information. Like so many things - they disappear to the grave for want of recording, cataloging and writing down the everyday things in life.

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Nothing I can add to that Rupert bear, all the information I gleaned came largely from Jean Peters recollections through the Narrow Boat magazine website, apart from the chat I had to Mrs. Peters over the phone. I never did get a reply after I sent a few of my notes, neither have the BW archive holders acknowledged my approaches for more information. Like so many things - they disappear to the grave for want of recording, cataloging and writing down the everyday things in life.

 

Thank you for the reply. It is indeed sad that so much is lost. In the unlikely event that I do come across any more information, I will pass it on.

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