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Northern G.U. gates - connected ever?


Derek R.

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Having read through the memoirs of a Wartime trainee, mention has been made of the gates on the Northern G.U. being connected by wires, so that pushing one opened both. I've not heard of this before. I wonder if such was installed originally, and was abandoned as problems with maintenance began to show. I've Googled for information but found nothing.

 

It sounds like an idea that in practise would have suffered problems of maintenance due to complexities of underwater or conduit connections.

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It almost beggars belief to me.

 

I can't actually think how you would make such a mechanism work at all, let alone keep working if submerged, (which it would have had to be).

 

It's clearly not as simple as joining gate ends, (which would close one gate as you opened the other), and would have needed pulleys, and to utilise cables or chains that couldn't end up wedged between gate and cill.

 

Also some of those bastard gates are hard enough to move by one person, without trying to shift two in the same action.

 

I have considerable reservations about the trainees memories, some of it specific to the Birmingham line, (like the special windlasses that needed less turns to work the paddle gear).

 

The bizarre thing with the connected gates story is, unlike other errors, it's very hard to see what it might be they were actually thinking of.

 

It's usually at this point that Max Sinclair pops up and says it's completely true!

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Yes, some of that is true. I think Eily Gayford's book title might give some strength to the recollections of a few - 'Amateur Boatwoman'. This is not to deride their often valuable records, but fifty years can have effects on memory - and if someone had kidded them on at the time . . .

 

I've mailed the 'Gods' at BW seeking guidance :lol: Bet that'll send them into a state of :lol: and :lol:

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It almost beggars belief to me.

 

I can't actually think how you would make such a mechanism work at all, let alone keep working if submerged, (which it would have had to be).

 

It's clearly not as simple as joining gate ends, (which would close one gate as you opened the other), and would have needed pulleys, and to utilise cables or chains that couldn't end up wedged between gate and cill.

 

Also some of those bastard gates are hard enough to move by one person, without trying to shift two in the same action.

 

I have considerable reservations about the trainees memories, some of it specific to the Birmingham line, (like the special windlasses that needed less turns to work the paddle gear).

 

The bizarre thing with the connected gates story is, unlike other errors, it's very hard to see what it might be they were actually thinking of.

 

It's usually at this point that Max Sinclair pops up and says it's completely true!

 

I too find it hard to believe that the northern GU gates were ever connected by wires but as designed I understand that they were self-opening. They were weighted on the balance beams in such a way that as soon as the water levels equalised they would swing open. However with grit etc in the heel post socket I doubt if this would have worked very well - the balance must have been quite fine and only a small amount of extra friction would have stopped it happening. The gates therefore would only have been closed by the boatman after he had drawn half a paddle - or they would have swung open again.

 

Paul H

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Surely we are only talking bottom gates here. Top gates would simply be pushed open by the boats easily enough. The gates all used to have iron guards on them to protect them from the practice. Bottom gates are high enough above the boats for them to pass under any such mechanism linking the balance beams.

 

Plenty of northern locks have a winch to open bottom gates, bottom lock of the Rochdale 9, several on Wigan flight, vague memories of some in Yorkshire too. That said though I've never seen one that worked both from the one side, it wouldn't be impossible to do though.

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Where is what you are reading published, (if at all), please, Derek ?

 

It's a collection of articles available from the BBC WW2 Peoples War. They are most easily accessed through the website of the Narrow Boat Magazine

Scroll down to 'Idle Women' (Wartime trainees by Jean Peters) in eight parts. It is a personal account, and at times there are clashes, but has a varied mixture of elation on a fine day and of future hope, and abject misery - both physical along the 'Bottom road' in filthy weather, and emotionally.

 

To be frank, it's not an easy read, and I fancy this is less a reflection on Mrs Peters, but more likely by the manner in which her memories have been transcribed. If a person not familiar with canal terminology, or local place names, not to mention the vernacular, and who may either have set down from a hand written set of pages, or tape recording her account - the chances of getting things quite wrong are rife. Reading through the BBC series of eight articles I was struck with a succession of anomalies that simply cried out to be corrected - and that is what I have done.

 

Through the offices of the Bournemouth Libraries who provided the link between Mrs Peters and the BBC, I have managed to contact Mrs Peters direct. I have sent her today a full manuscript of her BBC displayed record of her trips, fully edited to the best of my knowledge with regard to the cut, correcting place names and such data that would to us seem ridiculous, such as empty boats drawing 4' 9", place names such as Curditch for Curdworth, and Appleton for Alperton (though the vernacular may not be far off) - and even possibly the gates linked by wires. Other similar oddities occur, such as: "to put a pie the star in cupboard". This simple nonsense line can be explained if read - 'to put a pie in the stern'end cupboard' - especially if it's pronounced 'starn'. If you had heard an elderly lady speaking such a line, and have no knowledge of boats - it might just sound like nonsense, and with no knowledge of any different - nonsense may get written down.

 

So, a large sheaf of documents are now winging their way to Bournemouth with the hope that Mrs Peters will read, or have read to her, and approve for possible inclusion in some place or another connected with canal history, an edited manuscript. Not all of what is written is peculiar - some of the descriptions of lock working a pair are spot on. And her descriptions of Regents Canal Dock, and Bulls Bridge yard are pure paintings with words.

 

The trainees experiences were but short lived in comparison to the life long boaters, but valuable nonetheless for their view of a world very far from that which was their norm.

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Thanks for the link....

 

I'll try and have a proper look later.

 

I quite like

 

A backbreaking job, not to mention carrying a forty-foot shaft down the sheeted top planks

 

Yes, that would be tricky. wouldn't it!

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Surely we are only talking bottom gates here. Top gates would simply be pushed open by the boats easily enough. The gates all used to have iron guards on them to protect them from the practice. Bottom gates are high enough above the boats for them to pass under any such mechanism linking the balance beams.

 

Plenty of northern locks have a winch to open bottom gates, bottom lock of the Rochdale 9, several on Wigan flight, vague memories of some in Yorkshire too. That said though I've never seen one that worked both from the one side, it wouldn't be impossible to do though.

I'm probably being dense Neil I guess.

 

Going uphill, surely either set of gates could be pushed open by the boats.

 

Coming down, the bottom ones were normally pulled open by the boats.

 

I'd have though usefulness of being able to move "two for the price of one" were....

 

1) Opening top gates to let the boats in to go down

2) Closing gates (either end) after boats are in the lock

 

But if we are talking about something on the bottom gates, they would have had to swing a great deal more freely then than now, if one person was to swing two by a single pull or push.

 

In my best Frank Muir voice, I still say "Bluff".

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(snip)

I quite like

"A backbreaking job, not to mention carrying a forty-foot shaft down the sheeted top planks"

Yes, that would be tricky. wouldn't it!

 

Ah - yes! That was something I was going to canvas you all for. Just how long was a long shaft? I have a 12'6" and a couple more feet would be better, but better still would be an 18'. What is the norm for a decent shaft nowadays, come to that - what was back then? Forty foot (if you could manage one) would probably shaft off the bottom in RCD! You'd be poking factory windows out with one of them . . .

 

Another example of 'fourteen' being heard as 'forty'?

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Ah - yes! That was something I was going to canvas you all for. Just how long was a long shaft? I have a 12'6" and a couple more feet would be better, but better still would be an 18'. What is the norm for a decent shaft nowadays, come to that - what was back then? Forty foot (if you could manage one) would probably shaft off the bottom in RCD! You'd be poking factory windows out with one of them . . .

 

Another example of 'fourteen' being heard as 'forty'?

 

Eighteen or twenty feet would have been common.

I used to have a 25' shaft (until someone used it as a lever :lol: ), though that came from the Dukers (Bridgewater barges) rather than Narrow Boats. That was the longest I've ever come across.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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Eighteen or twenty feet would have been common.

I used to have a 25' shaft (until someone used it as a lever :lol: ), though that came from the Dukers (Bridgewater barges) rather than Narrow Boats. That was the longest I've ever come across.

 

Tim

 

That's more like it, something like the length of a scaffold pole, around 21' mark.

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Another example of 'fourteen' being heard as 'forty'?

It's hard to imagine a shaft 14 feet being adequate - not enough on a leisure boat.

 

I've never really thought about it, but Tim's number sounds more correct.

 

On this gate thing......

 

I think I've seen pre-war photographs of boats working those locks, where one gate is open and one shut. I'm not sure it would prove anything, if I could find one though.

 

But if whatever block and tackle arrangement that might have existed was above unladen boat height, (as Neil suggests), it would surely feature in someone's photo collection, wouldn't it ?

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we used to carry a couple of twenty odd foot shafts on Vulcan as well as shorter ones for different times we even had one of em when we had a 45ft bantock the shaft was almost as long as the cabin and had to be squeezed inside when going home after boating.

 

What was the cabin shaft used for can anyone tell me.

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we used to carry a couple of twenty odd foot shafts on Vulcan as well as shorter ones for different times we even had one of em when we had a 45ft bantock the shaft was almost as long as the cabin and had to be squeezed inside when going home after boating.

 

What was the cabin shaft used for can anyone tell me.

 

Hi Andy aer kid, Blossom ere.

Ard a thort a black country mon with yower family pedigree wood a nowd, just spake tew Horice!

 

This ones not too far off topic either. One of the uses of a cabin shaft was for shutting bottom end gates on narrow locks. If you took a close look at, for instance the Wolverhampton 21, on the inside face of the ends of the bottom gate balance beams, there was always fixed a piece of timber about an inch thick and the depth of the beam. This board was always peppered with the holes inflicted by the square pointed ends of cabin shafts. By stopping (almost) the back end of a motor boat leaving the tail of the lock it was possible to push against the wooden pads on the ends of the ballance beams from the counter of the leaving motor and start them closing. The process usually being completed by the half a paddle raised to one flush the motor out of the lock and two to fill the lock for the following butty. Ive also seen and used a cabin shaft for lifting the ratchet and dropping ground paddles working uphill as the boat leaves the lock. Cabin shafts were also used for removing 'crap' from round the blades, although a 'pigs tail' shunters pole was the prefered tool for this purpose.

 

cheers aer kid

Dow bang 'em about

Blossom

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I too find it hard to believe that the northern GU gates were ever connected by wires but as designed I understand that they were self-opening. They were weighted on the balance beams in such a way that as soon as the water levels equalised they would swing open. However with grit etc in the heel post socket I doubt if this would have worked very well - the balance must have been quite fine and only a small amount of extra friction would have stopped it happening. The gates therefore would only have been closed by the boatman after he had drawn half a paddle - or they would have swung open again.

 

Paul H

Certainly in my experience on the southern GU last week a lot of the top and bottom gates are self-opening despite my best attempts to shut them!

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Certainly in my experience on the southern GU last week a lot of the top and bottom gates are self-opening despite my best attempts to shut them!

Whilton/Buckby locks always seem particularly bad in that respect, if it's very windy.

 

But we also encountered in quite a bit coming down the Soar, and then the Leicester, where at some locks in the wind, we were forced each time to draw half a paddle at the other end, before attempting to shut gates.

 

No such similar experiences on the Birmingham line, but perhaps only because it was less windy.

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Hi Andy aer kid, Blossom ere.

Ard a thort a black country mon with yower family pedigree wood a nowd, just spake tew Horice!

 

This ones not too far off topic either. One of the uses of a cabin shaft was for shutting bottom end gates on narrow locks. If you took a close look at, for instance the Wolverhampton 21, on the inside face of the ends of the bottom gate balance beams, there was always fixed a piece of timber about an inch thick and the depth of the beam. This board was always peppered with the holes inflicted by the square pointed ends of cabin shafts. By stopping (almost) the back end of a motor boat leaving the tail of the lock it was possible to push against the wooden pads on the ends of the ballance beams from the counter of the leaving motor and start them closing. The process usually being completed by the half a paddle raised to one flush the motor out of the lock and two to fill the lock for the following butty. Ive also seen and used a cabin shaft for lifting the ratchet and dropping ground paddles working uphill as the boat leaves the lock. Cabin shafts were also used for removing 'crap' from round the blades, although a 'pigs tail' shunters pole was the prefered tool for this purpose.

 

cheers aer kid

Dow bang 'em about

Blossom

 

Welcome to the banter box Blossom. I'd forgotten about the pads on the balance beams (don't get out much). Reminds me of the first time we went down the 21, got a reprimand from locky (Skinny Ol'boy in a flat 'at and bike clips) for not lifting a bottom paddle while strapping the top gate shut. He was a diamond after that - went ahead and set 'em up - lickety split to the bottom, that was before they put new gear in. Handy piece of kit a shunters pole, mine took a walk after I'd tidied it up. Never did find it.

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It's a collection of articles available from the BBC WW2 Peoples War. They are most easily accessed through the website of the Narrow Boat Magazine

Scroll down to 'Idle Women' (Wartime trainees by Jean Peters) in eight parts. It is a personal account, and at times there are clashes, but has a varied mixture of elation on a fine day and of future hope, and abject misery - both physical along the 'Bottom road' in filthy weather, and emotionally.

 

To be frank, it's not an easy read, and I fancy this is less a reflection on Mrs Peters, but more likely by the manner in which her memories have been transcribed.

 

What a delightful account of life on working narrowboats. I'm only on page 3 but I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in the subject. This is surely no vague recollection written years since the experience after searching back through the memory for half-forgotten detail. The writing has so much presence to it that it must surely have been written soon after the events, perhaps in the form of a diary? I suspect that it was in fact typed-up at some point and only more recently treated to OCR (optical character recognition) software which has given some of the curious detail* and punctuation where the precise text could not be transcribed. Still, it makes for a great read, and even allows the enthusiast to think they know better than the author on occasion ! Definitely as good as (and more realistic than) 'Hold on a Minute' and better perhaps than any of the wartime trainee books (although I admit I haven't read any for a number of years).

 

* "We were still sheeting up when once more came that shrill wine and for the first time I saw a buzz bomb pass across the sky and take its fateful crash." The grapes of wrath perhaps?

 

 

Steve

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The writing has so much presence to it that it must surely have been written soon after the events, perhaps in the form of a diary?

 

Steve

 

Yes, she kept a log book.

Buzz bombs - V1's, pulse engine cuts out - tens seconds of silence before impact.

 

There's masses of similar recollections at The Peoples War.

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I'd mentioned on the other thread - on 'GU tying up places', that it was written - 30 pairs had been worked by women trainees during WWII. This seems a lot, Anthony Burton states: "There were, after all, never very many of them and at the best they represented only a tiny fraction of the boating population - no more than fifteen pairs were worked by women on the cut at any one time."

That still sounds generous, as it would need 45 women as crew. However, so far I have names for 37, + 1 un-named = 38 and that includes three trainers; Eily (Kit) Gayford; Daphne French; and Molly Traill. Kit Gayford states in Amateur Boatwomen:- "At one time we had eleven pairs all worked by girls". 38 would cover that, though some girls de-bunked on the first trip (one on the first night).

On the Leeds and Liverpool, Nancy Smith and her mate Margaret worked the short boat 'Mu' until '45, but make mention of a boat 'Venus', and a Widdop 24hp engine, being fitted out in the hold with ten bunks for trainees. No more is known in that direction - could have been a short boat - so not far off of fifteen pairs.

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I'd mentioned on the other thread - on 'GU tying up places', that it was written - 30 pairs had been worked by women trainees during WWII. This seems a lot, Anthony Burton states: "There were, after all, never very many of them and at the best they represented only a tiny fraction of the boating population - no more than fifteen pairs were worked by women on the cut at any one time."

That still sounds generous, as it would need 45 women as crew. However, so far I have names for 37, + 1 un-named = 38 and that includes three trainers; Eily (Kit) Gayford; Daphne French; and Molly Traill. Kit Gayford states in Amateur Boatwomen:- "At one time we had eleven pairs all worked by girls". 38 would cover that, though some girls de-bunked on the first trip (one on the first night).

On the Leeds and Liverpool, Nancy Smith and her mate Margaret worked the short boat 'Mu' until '45, but make mention of a boat 'Venus', and a Widdop 24hp engine, being fitted out in the hold with ten bunks for trainees. No more is known in that direction - could have been a short boat - so not far off of fifteen pairs.

In September 1944, a "Grand Union Manning List" gives the following boats manned by trainees:

Antony & Alphons (Miss McPhee)

Atlas & Capella (Miss Martin)

Capricorn & Cleopatra (Miss French)

Ceres & Cetus (Miss Boughton-Leigh)

Deimos & Vela (Miss Strachan)

Phobus & Moon (Miss Trevor)

Sun & Dipper (Miss Harper)

Ascot & Crater (Miss Hull-Smith)

Battersea & Uttoxeter (Miss Gayford)

Bognor & Dodona (Miss Ramsey)

 

So 10 pairs out of a total of 98 pairs in commission at the time.

.

In addition Hydra & Crux were operated by a Mrs Cox who although undoubtedly a woman does not have the indicative letter W after her name as the others do. She could have been a trainee and the W is missed off the list but could equally be a widow from boating stock.

 

Paul H

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Interesting stuff Paul.

 

I'm kind of guessing if you listed the 88 pairs not manned by "trainees", that the captain's names would not come out as 20% double-barreled!

 

It really brings it home how many pairs must have been laid up without crews, though.

 

Back to Derek's questions - is there not come evidence that at least some of the pairs were crewed, at least some of the time, by only 2 women ?

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In September 1944, a "Grand Union Manning List" gives the following boats manned by trainees:

 

Antony & Alphons (Miss McPhee)

Atlas & Capella (Miss Martin)

Capricorn & Cleopatra (Miss French)

Ceres & Cetus (Miss Boughton-Leigh)

Deimos & Vela (Miss Strachan)

Phobus & Moon (Miss Trevor)

Sun & Dipper (Miss Harper)

Ascot & Crater (Miss Hull-Smith)

Battersea & Uttoxeter (Miss Gayford)

Bognor & Dodona (Miss Ramsey)

 

So 10 pairs out of a total of 98 pairs in commission at the time.

.

In addition Hydra & Crux were operated by a Mrs Cox who although undoubtedly a woman does not have the indicative letter W after her name as the others do. She could have been a trainee and the W is missed off the list but could equally be a widow from boating stock.

 

Paul H.

 

That's interesting, to link in with that I have -

Daphne French, trainer using Capricorn and Cleopatra

Miss Martin - Frankie Campbell-Martin

Cicely, a NZ girl I have on Hercules & Cetus

Sonia South (later Smith/Rolt) and her two friends Chattie Salaman, and Meriol Trevor, all three connected with the theatre - Phobos & Moon

Audrey; Evelyn Hunt & Anne (well respected) may well have crewed Sun & Dipper

 

Kit Gayford (trainer) used Battersea & Uttoxeter, but Pavo for a while too

Molly Traill was the second original trainer with Kit, and left to train girls on the FMC fleet in Birmingham, being replaced at Hayes by Daphne French.

 

Of the other names I have;

Wendy

'The Basher' - both left after first trip

The 'Dresden Chinas' - two girls who Sunbathed a lot, didn't last

Rosalie & Josephine - left part way through first trip having been iced up somewhere

One, who waited in the back cabin waiting to be shown the 'accommodation' and who I suspect left that night (or early next a.m.)

Margaret Ridout (Cornish)

Emma Smith (Miss Hull-Smith?)

Susan Woolfitt

Susan Blood

Virginia Strauss

Billie

Olga Kevelos - who in 1948 went motorcycle racing and became works rider for several British and foreign factories, winning two International Six Day Gold medals

Helen Skyrme (There was a Helen who insisted on wearing gloves - perhaps?)

Eileen - a former hairdresser, tough little boater

Avril Scott-Moncrieff - crewed on Alphons

Jean Peters

Kay

Miranda Pemberton-Pigott

Daphne March of Worcester, steerer of Heather Bell and who introduce Kit to canal boats

Bridget

Rosheen

Jill

Mary

A pipe smoking trainee in photo but un-named (Amateur Boatwomen)

Nancy Smith (Miss Hull Smith?) and her mate -

Margaret on the Leeds & Liverpool -

And others!

 

Those names in Blue attended a reunion at Rickmansworth in 1992. There may have been others, but their names are not mentioned.

 

Alan asks about a crew of two - it may have happened, and certainly did when one of the three took ill, but planned that way - unlikely I think.

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